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If India is following Israeli model in Kashmir, Pakistan needs to follow the Iranian model

Pakistan can’t! That is the problem...

I will probably create a thread this but I will give the details here as to why.

First of Pakistan is not an Islamic Republic like Iran or Afghanistan. It is based around secularism, in other words a country for all irrespective of religion. This and the army is what is holding Pakistan together... If Pakistan played around with proxies like Iran, then those proxies will come back to bite it in time because those proxies will want a Pakistan that is reflective of ideology. For Iran this already given since they are already fulfilling the Shia ideologue, those proxies can’t and won’t turn against Iran, they will not have a causes belli or it won’t be strong enough.

Second... and this is most important. Pakistan has an existential crisis, and I don’t want this to be taken with offense but with a serious criticism. Pakistan and Pakistanis don’t have a definitive identity like Iran because it is a younger nation than Iran. Pakistanis are divided between Sunni and Shia, and next by ethnicity. Look at how the Shias of Pakistan vehemently defend Iran and its government while Iranians themselves although they love Iran hate their government, some Sunnis in Pakistan even call Shias Kafir, should Pakistan head towards recruiting proxies and it shifts to a more religious, what will be the backlash from the differing sects? Next there is big ethnic problem in Pakistan, after militancy in KPK and FATA, the after effects of it are PTM, and even in Karachi after having read the posts of some members here, all view each other with some degree contempt, the only group I don’t see participating in such comments and stupidity are the Punjabis, I am convinced that if they were not the majority the Pakistan would have troubles all over.

Pakistan if it wants to maintain itself as a state has to continue being a secular nation, it cannot be like Iran. The Kashmir proxies will probably be left to us Afghans since we will soon have an Islamic government and we can also maintain their presence without any type of blowbacks like the one Pakistan experienced. We can in the future take Kashmir for you, but it’s going to come with a cost of sectarianism... Are you prepared for that a cost?

Thoughts @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Iran definitely has a big advantage in the fact that they are able to unite behind a single cause and stick to it. They have different ethnic groups, Azeris, Persians, Arabs, and Kurds, but they have succeeded at uniting them together in a single consolidated front.

Pakistan's biggest problem is that our ethnic groups are so busy fighting each other that they cannot see the bigger picture. It is evident even on this forum that Pakistanis get so divided on stupid and petty issues to an extent that is worse only in India. Iran and Turkey are far more united than Pakistan and their success is clear. Pakistan should not copy Iran's Shia model because it will never work where Sunni-Shia tension exists. But Iran's general direction is still correct because they are able to understand that they cannot show any weakness to their enemies with ethnic divisions. So Iran's enemies like Saudi and Israel know that exploiting different groups like Kurds or Azeris will never work because they don't allow ethnic differences to become a dividing issue in the first place. This is why Iran was able to connect proxies across Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Yemen. An Iranian and a Yemeni have nothing in common but they agree on a common goal and do not get divided on other issues. This is how Iran was able to convince Arab proxies that fighting the enemy was more important than fighting each other.

I think its a wrong assumption that ethnic and secretarian issues would be an issue if Pakistan created proxies around India. In Iran's case, Shia matters because that's what their common cause is. But this does not automatically mean that if Iranian proxies are Shia, that Pakistani proxies would also need to be Shia. For Pakistan, being united against India is more important than being either Sunni or Shia. When the goal itself is different, so is the strategy. A Pakistani proxy network would be similar to Iran's proxy network in that a common goal supersedes ethnic differences, but those goals are different as is the strategy needed to implement it. An electrician's job is to work with power supply and he is hired based on how good he can work with electrical equipment. Maybe the electrician also happens to also be a good pharmacist but it is not relevant for his job. On the other hand, a pharmacist is hired based on how good he can work with medicine. Maybe the pharmacist also happens to be a good electrician but it is not relevant for his job. For the electrician, electrical knowledge matters, and for the pharmacist, medical knowledge matters. For Iran, Shia matters, for Pakistan, India matters. For Pakistan, Shia doesn't matter if it's not the goal. India is the common cause. For Iran, India doesn't matter if it's not the goal. Both sides are recruiting people with different objectives but in the same way.

Pakistan doesn't need to follow Sunni or Shia, what Pakistan needs is a single cause that everyone can agree on. In theory, this is simple enough, bring the fight to India. But the reality is, Pakistan's whole approach to the problem is wrong. Pakistan is trying to unite a country instead of a cause. If you try to unite the country, that will also be the limit of your power. The limit of a united country is its borders. The limit of a united cause has no borders. This is the difference between Pakistan and Iran. Iran doesn't limit its power inside its borders like Pakistan, it projects power far beyond its borders with a cause that supersedes ethnic differences and unites people. You may only be able to recruit 5 people on your team if you include only Pakistanis, but you may be able to get 20 people if you expand to anyone who sees India as an enemy from other countries like Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and Sri Lanka. Pakistan is not the only country that dislikes India. India is an enemy of Muslims and this message has to be made clear. When other countries start seeing India for the threat their ideology is to Muslims, then half the job is already done for Pakistan. To create a proxy, you only need one thing, and that is a common cause. It does not matter if the proxies are Sunni and Shia and in my opinion, they should be a mix of both within every group so it does not become an issue as long as they are all united against India. Pakistan could send missiles to proxies in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and kill two birds with one stone. Then Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi proxies will be able to defend themselves against Indian aggression and apply pressure around all of India. Then India will be surrounded from all sides, west from Pakistan, east from Bangladesh, south from Sri Lanka, north from China. Pakistan and its proxies would have India cornered from every direction. Iran's proxies are a very diverse group of people but they all agree that Israel and Saudi are enemies. Individually, Iran's proxies are weak but when they work together, they are the most feared group in the Middle East. Likewise, Pakistan's proxies in Bangladesh and Sri Lanka would be a diverse group but what you need is for them to agree that India is the biggest threat to their security. Together, Pakistan and its proxies in Bangladesh and Sri Lanka utilizing asymmetric methods would be the strongest force in the region. India would have to redistribute its army away from the western border to face new threats from proxies in the east. In a war situation, Pakistan and its proxies could strike from any direction at any time, north, south, east, or west.

Pakistan would never be like Iran in the sense that Iran has a Shia cause outside its borders. However, Pakistan can start connecting the dots of various anti-India causes outside Pakistan into a single chain of command with a Pakistani version of the IRGC that specializes in proxy warfare in other countries. These proxies could coordinate and act together and strike with coordination from asymmetric Pakistani operations to split up and divert India's attention from multiple directions simultaneously. Similar to how Iran did airstrikes on Saudis from Iran, Iraq, and Yemen with missiles and drones simultaneously coming in hot from different directions. Saudis were overwhelmed and could not stop any of them. The crown prince has nightmares in his sleep because he knows that Iran has the capability to strike Saudi Arabia with cruise missiles, any place, any time. Not even the best US defenses can save them. That is the kind of fear we need to strike into the heart of India. They should not be able to sleep at night.

There are major differences between the Iranian and Pakistani strategy in terms of ethnic and secretarian factors but one thing that cannot be denied is that Pakistan must become as aggressive if not more aggressive than Iran in dealing with the enemy. Internal ethnic and secretarian reasons are not a valid excuse for Pakistan to be afraid of an external enemy. Iran and even Turkey are much better than Pakistan in this regard as they are not afraid to take direct action against their enemies. Iran makes its own military equipment and does not rely on anyone for anything. They export their missiles to anyone they want and no one can do anything about it. Turkey makes their own drones and they strike whatever they want. Nobody can tell Iran and Turkey what to do, they just do it. That is the power that self-sufficiency enables. Half the problem in Pakistan is that we rely too much on others like Saudis to the extent that we are afraid to anger them. If we relied less on countries like Saudi and America, Pakistan would not be manipulated as easily. Pakistan has not taken any direct action against India for Kashmir but it will have to become bolder and more fearless like Iran and Turkey in order to accomplish this. We will need to rely less on other countries to instill courage, self-confidence, and conviction in our own abilities. For that, we must have strong leadership that doesn't fear anyone or anything.
 
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Are you sure you should be thanking your luck? Had Pakistan taken all of Kashmir in 1962, wouldn't we now have relative peace in our relations? Would we have fought the wars of '65, '71 and other various battles like Kargil or the one earlier last year?

On the contrary, I believe we would have had great peace and financial stability with trade and trust had we taken all of Kashmir in '62 just like India and China relations which are much better than India and Pakistan relations despite their existing land disputes.

Buddy...i like your reverse analogy...I am in the same group as you..Rather than being coward to ourselves and keep fooling our people that we will wait for generations to kill each other, it is better, our army should decide a mutually convenient date and fight it out in a complete ruthless war....Let us try to fight till the end till we realize if our wish list to retain/win Kashmir at any cost has any sense to both of us...
 
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Are you sure you should be thanking your luck? Had Pakistan taken all of Kashmir in 1962, wouldn't we now have relative peace in our relations? Would we have fought the wars of '65, '71 and other various battles like Kargil or the one earlier last year?

On the contrary, I believe we would have had great peace and financial stability with trade and trust had we taken all of Kashmir in '62 just like India and China relations which are much better than India and Pakistan relations despite their existing land disputes.

I read somewhere that India wrote a letter to Pakistan in 62 appreciating them for not trying to extract benefits out of Indo-Sino skirmish.

I need to dig a bit more about it.
 
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I read somewhere that India wrote a letter to Pakistan in 62 appreciating them for not trying to extract benefits out of Indo-Sino skirmish.

I need to dig a bit more about it.

That is true...Pakistan has the golden chance to attack in 1962 while India was fighting with China...But i beleive, Pakistan Govt did some kind of arrangement with Indian Gov...Even i heard this story in Youtube...It may be false too
 
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That is true...Pakistan has the golden chance to attack in 1962 while India was fighting with China...But i beleive, Pakistan Govt did some kind of arrangement with Indian Gov...Even i heard this story in Youtube...It may be false too

Shah of Iran wrote a letter to Ayub and asked Pakistan to fight along with India against red menace China, Ayub though didn't took this chance but in return didn't participated along with China as a nice gesture.

Shastri recalled the Shah's letter and said that had the Pakistani soldiers fought alongside us and 'shed their blood with Indian soldiers', it would have been difficult to say 'No' to Pakistan even if it had asked for Kashmir (Agar wo Kashmir bhi mangte to na karna mushkil hota).

@Mav3rick
 
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Thats probably what many Pakistanis including me was thinking and discussing. Afghans can help us liberate Kashmir.
But I have a question. For Proxy in Kashmir You Afghans need money and way from to enter Kashmir. Thats mean Afghanistan+Pakistan using proxy inside Kashmir

Just get us connected to CPEC, and help us connect to Turkmenistan's untapped gas reserves with a pipeline, jobs will be created all around, military details will be handled later by the higher ups.

Iran definitely has a big advantage in the fact that they are able to unite behind a single cause and stick to it. They have different ethnic groups, Azeris, Persians, Arabs, and Kurds, but...

So be it then, we are ready whenever you are ready, but first lets fix our economies which should be 10-15 years max once USA leaves. But I'd like to hear the opinion of a Shia member and see how he feels about the matter...
 
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Are you sure you should be thanking your luck? Had Pakistan taken all of Kashmir in 1962, wouldn't we now have relative peace in our relations? Would we have fought the wars of '65, '71 and other various battles like Kargil or the one earlier last year?

On the contrary, I believe we would have had great peace and financial stability with trade and trust had we taken all of Kashmir in '62 just like India and China relations which are much better than India and Pakistan relations despite their existing land disputes.
Nope, The relations are bad because Pakistan has failed to look at its relatively weak position vis-a-vis India militarily and economically(and you are going to disagree but morally too) when it comes to the negotiating table.
India looked at things objectively vis-a-vis China and exchanged Tibet for Sikkim(regardless of whether it was right or wrong).
Pakistani military mantra is to DEMAND Kashmir valley without offering anything in return. What are you offering in return for your demands?, are you offering some strip of land which would give access to Middle east to India or something else which would be irresistible to Indian establishment?.
If not then why should India take Pakistan seriously considering the fact that gap between Pakistan and India is going to increase even further both militarily and economically?
 
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Nope, The relations are bad because Pakistan has failed to look at its relatively weak position vis-a-vis India militarily and economically(and you are going to disagree but morally too) when it comes to the negotiating table.
India looked at things objectively vis-a-vis China and exchanged Tibet for Sikkim(regardless of whether it was right or wrong).
Pakistani military mantra is to DEMAND Kashmir valley without offering anything in return. What are you offering in return for your demands?, are you offering some strip of land which would give access to Middle east to India or something else which would be irresistible to Indian establishment?.
If not then why should India take Pakistan seriously considering the fact that gap between Pakistan and India is going to increase even further both militarily and economically?

They can offer you this...

caspian_routes_map.png


It could be like the water treaty Pakistan has with you and it can be the start of good relations, India can benefit from this immensely.
 
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They can offer you this...

caspian_routes_map.png


It could be like the water treaty Pakistan has with you and it can be the start of good relations, India can benefit from this immensely.

You mean gas pipeline?
 
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You mean gas pipeline?

Yes, perhaps we can make a deal and both AFG and PAK can give India 70% of its profits for the first 10 years, and also connect the pipeline to India, and in return we get the rest of Kashmir...
 
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They can offer you this...

caspian_routes_map.png


It could be like the water treaty Pakistan has with you and it can be the start of good relations, India can benefit from this immensely.
India already has uninterrupted access to all kinds of energy. Oil from KSA, Iran, USA and a few others. Gas from Qatar.

Not to mention that oil and gas are past their premium dates. As the world is moving towards electrification and US started pumping out shale, oil and gas will never be an expensive commodity like they were once. There's barely any advantage to having a pipeline that crosses Pakistan. An unstable country to say the least.

So what you're saying is that for what would amount to barely a couple of billion dollars in cost savings, India will give away a strategic piece of land. How old are you?
 
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India already has uninterrupted access to all kinds of energy. Oil from KSA, Iran, USA and a few others. Gas from Qatar.

Not to mention that oil and gas are past their premium dates. As the world is moving towards electrification and US started pumping out shale, oil and gas will never be an expensive commodity like they were once. There's barely any advantage to having a pipeline that crosses Pakistan. An unstable country to say the least.

So what you're saying is that for what would amount to barely a couple of billion dollars in cost savings, India will give away a strategic piece of land. How old are you?

So do you believe it is better to have 700K military presence that drains your economy and a hostile neighbour over good relations and a boost in economy?

If so... then don't complain in the future if you criticise the Pakistanis for being "Unwilling"...
 
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So do you believe it is better to have 700K military presence that drains your economy and a hostile neighbour over good relations and a boost in economy?

If so... then don't complain in the future if you criticise the Pakistanis for being "Unwilling"...
In essence you're saying that India should compromise on Pakistani and your terms because of a very minor boost in economy?

I'm sorry but it seems you don't seem to be applying logic. I urge you to use critical thinking instead of generic statements which are not quantifiable.

I'm not sure you understand what 'drain on economy' means. On average Indian economy, over the last two decades, is doing better than Pakistan's. Pakistan also spends more on its defence (as a percentage of its total budget) than India does. That means as a percentage of its budget, Pakistan spends less than India on education, health and development. Pakistan also has one of the highest per capita military forces in the world (which means people employed for the military), nearly double that of India's.

Therefore logic would dictate that bad relations with India costs Pakistan's economy more than it costs India. The benefits, thus, for a reduction in conflict and more cooperation are much greater for Pakistan than they are for India.

So why don't we flip the argument. Pakistan should give away the part of Kashmir it has and in exchange India will sign a preferential trade treaty with Pakistan which would allow Pakistan to make a few billion dollars extra in the Indian market. If you don't agree... then don't complain in the future if you criticise the Indians for being "Unwilling"...
 
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In essence you're saying that India should compromise on Pakistani and your terms because of a very minor boost in economy?

I'm sorry but it seems you don't seem to be applying logic. I urge you to use critical thinking instead of generic statements which are not quantifiable.

I'm not sure you understand what 'drain on economy' means. On average Indian economy, over the last two decades, is doing better than Pakistan's. Pakistan also spends more on its defence (as a percentage of its total budget) than India does. That means as a percentage of its budget, Pakistan spends less than India on education, health and development. Pakistan also has one of the highest per capita military forces in the world (which means people employed for the military), nearly double that of India's.

Therefore logic would dictate that bad relations with India costs Pakistan's economy more than it costs India. The benefits, thus, for a reduction in conflict and more cooperation are much greater for Pakistan than they are for India.

So why don't we flip the argument. Pakistan should give away the part of Kashmir it has and in exchange India will sign a preferential trade treaty with Pakistan which would allow Pakistan to make a few billion dollars extra in the Indian market. If you don't agree... then don't complain in the future if you criticise the Indians for being "Unwilling"...

Your logic would make sense if the Kashmiris wanted to be apart of India... That is the issue. You need 700K soldiers to maintain order in that area, admit it you are oppressors.

Pakistan's economy is in bad shapes right now because of USA's presence in Afghanistan, the both of you tried to destabilise it but luckily for them their patience and perseverance paid off... Now USA is running with its tail behind its legs, and now Corona destroyed their economy no more games are going to be played and they will run from Afghanistan for good... And What do you think will happen once they leave and CPEC extends into Afghanistan, as well as the Pipeline that will be built thereafter?
 
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Your logic would make sense if the Kashmiris wanted to be apart of India... That is the issue. You need 700K soldiers to maintain order in that area, admit it you are oppressors.

Pakistan's economy is in bad shapes right now because of USA's presence in Afghanistan, the both of you tried to destabilise it but luckily for them their patience and perseverance paid off... Now USA is running with its tail behind its legs, and now Corona destroyed their economy no more games are going to be played and they will run from Afghanistan for good... And What do you think will happen once they leave and CPEC extends into Afghanistan, as well as the Pipeline that will be built thereafter?
The language you use - 'running with tail behind its legs', 'no more games', etc tells me that I am wasting my time in conversing with you. Wish you a good day ahead.
 
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