If Arab spring didn't happen in December 2010, what would Syria be like today?

[GiannKall]

Syrias and iraqis do exactly what Americans and Israelis want, fighting each other till ultimately the countries get dismembered

 

[libertad]

NATO bombings started only AFTER degenerate Gahaffi stated a bloody civil war to stay in power.

I guess fighting foreign backed insurgents is 'starting civil war'. I guess governments should just hand power over to jihadists. And even if true why is this NATO's business in the first place?

False. Libya today is thousand times better than it was on 18 March 2011 with Ghaddafi and million times better than today Syria where psychopath Assad was allowed to do whatever he likes.

Oh yeah its heaven now. WIth pockets of the country controlled by IS and various warring factions.

 

[500]

I guess fighting foreign backed insurgents is 'starting civil war'.

Rebels took Bengazi in first days of revolt. Yeah they all were foreign agents dropped from space. Boy you have a brain of a fly.

I guess governments should just hand power over to jihadists. And even if true why is this NATO's business in the first place?

In Syria we experience what u desire: dictator was given a free hand to do whatever he likes with his people: slaughter, torture, starve, gas, bomb. And we see the results.

Oh yeah its heaven now. WIth pockets of the country controlled by IS and various warring factions.

IS pocket is very tiny. Drug lords in South America kill more people than fractions in Libya.

 

[libertad]

Rebels took Bengazi in first days of revolt. Yeah they all were foreign agents dropped from space. Boy you have a brain of a fly.

What Gaddafi/Assad did or is doing is the same thing any head of state would do. Abraham Lincoln's civil war killed 600000 and he's considered a hero. You still haven't explained how any of this is NATO's business.

In Syria we experience what u desire: dictator was given a free hand to do whatever he likes with his people: slaughter, torture, starve, gas, bomb. And we see the results.

Oh so you're Syrian now? Wow you care so much for folks all the way in Syria and Libya yet in your own country you steal people's land and occupy them. Play that violin a little louder.

IS pocket is very tiny. Drug lords in South America kill more people than fractions in Libya.

With Gaddafi=no ISIS, no warlords. All of a sudden you want to qualify is 'IS kill less people than South American drug lords'. Look at the terrorist attacks in Tunisia last year. All those happened because of IS training camps in Libya.

 

[Assadynasty]

Rebels took Bengazi in first days of revolt. Yeah they all were foreign agents dropped from space. Boy you have a brain of a fly.

NATO jammed Libyan comm and broadcast false news of Gaddafi's death which caused desertion. Without NATO rebels would have not been able to take western Libya. The west was the rich part. The east was the poor part.

 

[500]

What Gaddafi/Assad did or is doing is the same thing any head of state would do. Abraham Lincoln's civil war killed 600000 and he's considered a hero. You still haven't explained how any of this is NATO's business.

1) You are switching topic. You made an idiotic claim that foreign backed insurgents captured huge town of Bengazi within days since the beginning of revolution.
2) Civil war in America was de facto a war between two states. Nothing to do with Libya or Syria.

Oh so you're Syrian now? Wow you care so much for folks all the way in Syria and Libya yet in your own country you steal people's land and occupy them. Play that violin a little louder.

Again u are changing subject. I am just saying that in Syria Assad was given a free hand as u desire. And we see the results: one of the biggest humanitarian disasters in history.

With Gaddafi=no ISIS, no warlords. All of a sudden you want to qualify is 'IS kill less people than South American drug lords'. Look at the terrorist attacks in Tunisia last year. All those happened because of IS training camps in Libya.

Another stupidity. As u can see in Syria where is Assad there is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger ISIS much much much more warlords and bloodshed.

So supporting psychopath dictators in civil war like Assad and Ghaddafi does not decrease chaos but increase.

 

[libertad]

1) You are switching topic. You made an idiotic claim that foreign backed insurgents captured huge town of Bengazi within days since the beginning of revolution.

Where did I say foreign backed insurgents captured Benghazi? I said foreign insurgents armed by Qatar etc were used in conjunction with NATO air campaign. You can't explain why NATO and Gulfies are getting involved in Libyan matters.

2) Civil war in America was de facto a war between two states. Nothing to do with Libya or Syria.

Premise is the same...residing head of state refuses to accept mutiny/seccession.

Again u are changing subject. I am just saying that in Syria Assad was given a free hand as u desire. And we see the results: one of the biggest humanitarian disasters in history.

You have you're opinion, I have mine. Overwhelming majority of people in Syria are happy to live under Assad

Another stupidity. As u can see in Syria where is Assad there is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger ISIS much much much more warlords and bloodshed.

So supporting psychopath dictators in civil war like Assad and Ghaddafi does not decrease chaos but increase.

Because Assad has not been defeated therefore NATO/ Gulf states have poured more money and support for these people over the years. Now it is ISIS which is a global problem not Assad. It is ISIS that is bombing Belgium, Paris, North Africa, Iraq etc etc. The people who funded insurgents against the secular Assad government are responsible for ISIS not Assad.

Again u are changing subject. I am just saying that in Syria Assad was given a free hand as u desire. And we see the results: one of the biggest humanitarian disasters in history.

Given a free hand by who? No one in UN, NATO or Gulf states has the authority to dictate anything to Assad or anyone else for that matter with all the blood on their hands and countless screw ups all over the world.

Another stupidity. As u can see in Syria where is Assad there is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger ISIS much much much more warlords and bloodshed.

So supporting psychopath dictators in civil war like Assad and Ghaddafi does not decrease chaos but increase.

There is strong ISIS in Iraq as well where there is no dictator. Correlation is not causation. There are hundreds of IS fighters from Europe and tens of thousands of sympathisers so ISIS is not just an anti Assad phenomenon. I don't support any dictators, but give me secular dictators over AQ and IS anyday. At least with secular dictators we don't have to worry about our subways and airports being bombed. According to you Libya is improved even with ISIS and God knows what else controlling parts of the country.

 

[500]

Where did I say foreign backed insurgents captured Benghazi? I said foreign insurgents armed by Qatar etc were used in conjunction with NATO air campaign. You can't explain why NATO and Gulfies are getting involved in Libyan matters.

We were discussing the beginning of civil war in Syria. You claimed that it was started by some mysterious foreign "backed insurgents". So how out of sudden they managed to take over entire Bengazi?

Premise is the same...residing head of state refuses to accept mutiny/seccession.

No, its two states with regular equally armed armies. In Syria we had only protestors in first half year.

You have you're opinion, I have mine.

Its not matter of opinion, its fact: Madman Assad got a free hand to do whatever he likes with his people. Just as u desired. For 5+ long years and counting. He torture, starved, gassed, dropped barrels with explosives on daily basis. - Results are terrible.

Ghadafi had much weaker trained and euipped army than Assad. What makes u think he would do better?

Overwhelming majority of people in Syria are happy to live under Assad

Now thats nothing but dictator fanboy opinion. I'll ask two questions which al Assad fanboys failed to answer so far:

1) If "overwhelming majority" supports Assad, why they never made a single fair elections in 40+ years?
2) If "overwhelming majority" supports Assad why he needs to beg Iran for sectarian militias to fight for him?

Because Assad has not been defeated therefore NATO/ Gulf states have poured more money and support for these people over the years. Now it is ISIS which is a global problem not Assad. It is ISIS that is bombing Belgium, Paris, North Africa, Iraq etc etc. The people who funded insurgents against the secular Assad government are responsible for ISIS not Assad.

You just made a claim, that if there was Ghaddafi there would not be ISIS.
But Assad example shows the opposite. Assad is still there and ISIS is much much stronger than in Libya.

Given a free hand by who? No one in UN, NATO or Gulf states has the authority to dictate anything to Assad or anyone else for that matter with all the blood on their hands and countless screw ups all over the world.

By the world. Assad is butchering people expelling, barrel bombing markets and flying by coalition jets only watch and do NOTHING to stop it.

There is strong ISIS in Iraq as well where there is no dictator. Correlation is not causation. There are hundreds of IS fighters from Europe and tens of thousands of sympathisers so ISIS is not just an anti Assad phenomenon. I don't support any dictators, but give me secular dictators over AQ and IS anyday. At least with secular dictators we don't have to worry about our subways and airports being bombed. According to you Libya is improved even with ISIS and God knows what else controlling parts of the country.

U made a claim. If there is psycho dictator there is no ISIS. In Syria we have most brutal dictator ever and in Syria ISIS stronger than in any other country.

 

[AntiLikudYahud]

And the Iranians are not foreign fighters? They've been there since 2013 pre ISIS

The Syrian gang has Hezbollah mercenaries not so secular for the neo Persia which wears flag of antizionism. The Iranians have killed more in Syria since 2013

 

[Indos]

Difference between Libya and Indonesia being that in Indonesia it was all handled internally. In Libya's case NATO bombed them and gulf states funded insurgents. Look at Libya now. Its a million times worse than when Gaddafi was presiding.

Actually the difference is more than that.

In Indonesia, it is quite similar like Tunisia, in which the elites side with the people. Soeharto intention to step down comes after all most all of his cabinet resign and the parliament open the gate of its building for university students. There was some split as well in the military as the biggest and the most modern corps, which is Kostrad protect the parliament building and let university students to come.


Kostrad (Komando Cadangan Strategis Angkatan Darat: "Army Strategic Reserve Command ") is a formation of the Indonesian Army. Kostrad is a Corps level command which has up to 35,000 troops. It also supervises operational readiness among all commands and conducts defence and security operations at the strategic level in accordance with policies of the TNI commander.[citation needed]

As a corps, Kostrad is commanded by a Panglima (Commander), usually a lieutenant general. Kostrad falls under the army chief of staff for training, personnel, and administration.[2] However, it comes under the Commander-in-Chief of the Indonesian National Armed Forces for operational command and deployment. Kostrad typically receives best equipments in the Army and its two armoured battalions will soon receive Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 2 Revolution tanks.

Not only Kostrad but also Kodam and Kopassus (Army Special Force), Kopassus has around 8000 soldiers, which is sided with Kostrad leadership at that time.

Kopassus (a portmanteau of "Komando Pasukan Khusus" or "Special Forces Command") is an Indonesian Army special forces group that conducts special operations missions for the Indonesian government, such as direct action, unconventional warfare, sabotage, counter-insurgency, counter-terrorism, and intelligence gathering. Kopassus was founded on 16 April 1952. It gained worldwide attention after several operations such as during the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and hostage release of Garuda Indonesia Flight 206.

The Special Forces quickly made their mark by spearheading some of the government's military campaigns: putting down regional rebellions in the late 1950s, the Western New Guinea campaign in 1961–1962, the confrontation with Malaysia from 1962–1966, the massacres of alleged communists in 1965, the East Timor invasion in 1975, and the subsequent campaigns against separatists throughout Indonesia.

Kodam Jaya is a military command area (effectively a military district) of the Military of Indonesia. It oversees Jakarta, the capital city, as well as three regions outside of Jakarta: Bekasi and Depok, which are administratively in West Java province; and Tangerang, which is in Banten province.


While in other hand, Armed Force General who is loyal to Soeharto rely on Marine Corps

Kormar has been active in various military operations in Indonesia. One of the largest amphibious military operations would have been Operation Jayawijaya in which thousands of marines were planned to land on Biak in 1963 as a part of the Trikora Campaign to take West Irian from Dutch control. The operation was aborted as a consequence deals preceding the New York Agreement.[1]

In 1999 a plan was proposed to expand the Kormar from its strength of 13,000 troops. Based on this plan, every Kormar's base would have three combat brigades: the Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery and would be supported by one Combat Support Regiment and one Administration Support Regiment. The expansion will create three Kormar bases: Surabaya for Eastern area command, Jakarta for Central area command, and Rate Island in Lampung for Western area command. Now the Indonesian Marine Corps has an estimated 29,000 troops in two Marine Forces (PASMARs) and one independent infantry marine regiment, when combined equal to one over-strength infantry division, which includes its own sizeable mechanised amphibious and artillery units.

And Brimob is also in Soeharto side, about 20.000 strong

Korps Brigade Mobil (English: Mobile Brigade Corps) also known as BRIMOB POLRI or simply BRIMOB is the main special police operations force and paramilitary of Indonesia. It is also known as for being one of the oldest unit in the Indonesian National Police. Its duties are counter-terrorism, dealing with high-threat armed criminals and robbery, close protection, riot control, search and rescue, anti-anarchist, and explosive disposal operations in urban settings.

The Mobile Brigade is also known as the special "anti-riot" branch of the Indonesian National Police which deals with special operations. A paramilitary organization, its training and equipment is almost identical to the Indonesian Army's ("TNI"), and it conventionally operates under joint military command in areas such as Papua and, until 2005, Aceh.[1]
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Those two rival troops are in Jakarta at the moment. Before any worst thing happen, Soeharto step down. Not like Assad and Qaddafi who still insist to hold power despite the civil war that has already happened

 

[libertad]

Actually the difference is more than that.

In Indonesia, it is quite similar like Tunisia, in which the elites side with the people. Soeharto intention to step down comes after all most all of his cabinet resign and the parliament open the gate of its building for university students. There was some split as well in the military as the biggest and the most modern corps, which is Kostrad protect the parliament building and let university students to come.


Kostrad (Komando Cadangan Strategis Angkatan Darat: "Army Strategic Reserve Command ") is a formation of the Indonesian Army. Kostrad is a Corps level command which has up to 35,000 troops. It also supervises operational readiness among all commands and conducts defence and security operations at the strategic level in accordance with policies of the TNI commander.[citation needed]

As a corps, Kostrad is commanded by a Panglima (Commander), usually a lieutenant general. Kostrad falls under the army chief of staff for training, personnel, and administration.[2] However, it comes under the Commander-in-Chief of the Indonesian National Armed Forces for operational command and deployment. Kostrad typically receives best equipments in the Army and its two armoured battalions will soon receive Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 2 Revolution tanks.

Not only Kostrad but also Kodam and Kopassus (Army Special Force), Kopassus has around 8000 soldiers, which is sided with Kostrad leadership at that time.

Kopassus (a portmanteau of "Komando Pasukan Khusus" or "Special Forces Command") is an Indonesian Army special forces group that conducts special operations missions for the Indonesian government, such as direct action, unconventional warfare, sabotage, counter-insurgency, counter-terrorism, and intelligence gathering. Kopassus was founded on 16 April 1952. It gained worldwide attention after several operations such as during the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and hostage release of Garuda Indonesia Flight 206.

The Special Forces quickly made their mark by spearheading some of the government's military campaigns: putting down regional rebellions in the late 1950s, the Western New Guinea campaign in 1961–1962, the confrontation with Malaysia from 1962–1966, the massacres of alleged communists in 1965, the East Timor invasion in 1975, and the subsequent campaigns against separatists throughout Indonesia.

Kodam Jaya is a military command area (effectively a military district) of the Military of Indonesia. It oversees Jakarta, the capital city, as well as three regions outside of Jakarta: Bekasi and Depok, which are administratively in West Java province; and Tangerang, which is in Banten province.


While in other hand, Armed Force General who is loyal to Soeharto rely on Marine Corps

Kormar has been active in various military operations in Indonesia. One of the largest amphibious military operations would have been Operation Jayawijaya in which thousands of marines were planned to land on Biak in 1963 as a part of the Trikora Campaign to take West Irian from Dutch control. The operation was aborted as a consequence deals preceding the New York Agreement.[1]

In 1999 a plan was proposed to expand the Kormar from its strength of 13,000 troops. Based on this plan, every Kormar's base would have three combat brigades: the Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery and would be supported by one Combat Support Regiment and one Administration Support Regiment. The expansion will create three Kormar bases: Surabaya for Eastern area command, Jakarta for Central area command, and Rate Island in Lampung for Western area command. Now the Indonesian Marine Corps has an estimated 29,000 troops in two Marine Forces (PASMARs) and one independent infantry marine regiment, when combined equal to one over-strength infantry division, which includes its own sizeable mechanised amphibious and artillery units.

And Brimob is also in Soeharto side, about 20.000 strong

Korps Brigade Mobil (English: Mobile Brigade Corps) also known as BRIMOB POLRI or simply BRIMOB is the main special police operations force and paramilitary of Indonesia. It is also known as for being one of the oldest unit in the Indonesian National Police. Its duties are counter-terrorism, dealing with high-threat armed criminals and robbery, close protection, riot control, search and rescue, anti-anarchist, and explosive disposal operations in urban settings.

The Mobile Brigade is also known as the special "anti-riot" branch of the Indonesian National Police which deals with special operations. A paramilitary organization, its training and equipment is almost identical to the Indonesian Army's ("TNI"), and it conventionally operates under joint military command in areas such as Papua and, until 2005, Aceh.[1]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those two rival troops are in Jakarta at the moment. Before any worst thing happen, Soeharto step down. Not like Assad and Qaddafi who still insist to hold power despite the civil war that has already happened

that's a long way of saying no foreign intervention.

 

[AntiLikudYahud]

And Russia bombing is okay?

There was no no fly zone in Syria.

 

[libertad]

We were discussing the beginning of civil war in Syria. You claimed that it was started by some mysterious foreign "backed insurgents". So how out of sudden they managed to take over entire Bengazi?


No, its two states with regular equally armed armies. In Syria we had only protestors in first half year.


Its not matter of opinion, its fact: Madman Assad got a free hand to do whatever he likes with his people. Just as u desired. For 5+ long years and counting. He torture, starved, gassed, dropped barrels with explosives on daily basis. - Results are terrible.

Ghadafi had much weaker trained and euipped army than Assad. What makes u think he would do better?


Now thats nothing but dictator fanboy opinion. I'll ask two questions which al Assad fanboys failed to answer so far:

1) If "overwhelming majority" supports Assad, why they never made a single fair elections in 40+ years?
2) If "overwhelming majority" supports Assad why he needs to beg Iran for sectarian militias to fight for him?

You just made a claim, that if there was Ghaddafi there would not be ISIS.
But Assad example shows the opposite. Assad is still there and ISIS is much much stronger than in Libya.


By the world. Assad is butchering people expelling, barrel bombing markets and flying by coalition jets only watch and do NOTHING to stop it.


U made a claim. If there is psycho dictator there is no ISIS. In Syria we have most brutal dictator ever and in Syria ISIS stronger than in any other country.

I've said many times I'm not a fan of Assad, I've even suggested he step down, but I'll take Assad over aq/isis anyday. Assad can step down tomorrow and nothing will change. The Syrian war transcends even him. For all of your hysterics against Assad the rest of the world has realized that he is not their enemy. Assad is not the one bombing and killing people all over the world it is your bff isis and their ideological bretheren. You're crocodile tears regarding Syria mean nothing. You're an Israeli Jew so stop talking like you care or know what's best for Syria and Libya even more than the people living in these countries.

 

[AntiLikudYahud]

The Syrian State has Hezbollah mercenaries fighting. This is before ISIS. Why all libertarians support tyranny?

Why should an alawite gang rule Syria. Why do you say Libya is worse now. There is freedom now even if it's not perfect

 

[Indos]

that's a long way of saying no foreign intervention.

The thing that is the most important is the heart of the leaders. It is the nation that we should protect not the regime. Actually there is another secret. The Armed Force Commander receive powerful authority from Soeharto during the chaos that can make him another dictator if Kostrad/ Kopassus/Kodam leadership dont oppose him or could create a civil war if Kostrad/Kopassus/Kodam opposed Armed Force Commander to take control.

The fact that the Armed Force Commander didnt want to use the power is another reason why Soeharto eventually resign. So many blindly Gaddafi / Assad supporter like you and those who are at the power is another reason of why those dictators doesnt step down.

Wiranto, he chooses democracy and now lead a political party, Hanura.

If the elite inside the country crack and fight to each other, civil war happen, then soon foreign power will come. It is a nature thing. So dont blame foreign power, blame the elite first. And if not because of Hisbullah came, the war has been over and ISIS will be much easily defeated.

ISIS has also emerged due to the fall of Arab Spring, particularly what happened in Egypt. Many Arabs become frustrated and thus trapped in the hand of ISIS.