If an F16 Can Take Out an F35 WVR---Then a JF 17 Can as Well

[Capt.Popeye]

It mainly helps in the BVR mode but the aircraft also needs to have a certain design so as not to reveal much in RCS.

Hey Windy.... what is a "BVR mode" ? Is it different from a "WVR mode" on an aircraft?
How does one work that ? With a switch ? Like "shift-on-the fly 4WD" ?
Or it just a "quick coat of stealth-paint ?
@MastanKhan , I think you got just the guy you were looking for, Windy is here.

 

[SipahSalar]

Those saying F-35 won't take part in dogfights are ignorant of how wars are fought. If an enemy knows your weakness, they will most certainly exploit it. If F-35 is is weak in dogfights, the enemy will employ tactics no one has ever imagined to get in close to the flying turkey.
As for fighting BVR fights. Information is key. If and only if you have complete grasp and dominance of the information war THEN you can take out planes in BVR. Otherwise you will just be taking out friendlies left and right.

As for can a JF-17 take out an F-35? Most certainly can. Smart tactics will be needed and the actual war will be fought on the digital field.

 

[RazorMC]

Hi,

I read a very interesting comment on another forum---and I was surprised at its simplicity---that how did we miss it.

The JF 17 is very close to the F 16 in a dog fight or maybe ????? SO if an F 16 can take out an F 35 in a dog fight with ease---then so what is stopping a JF 17 for doing the same.

I don't think anything---If an F16 cann do it---so can the JF17.

The JF-17 and F-16 are not similar in dogfighting capabilities imo, owing to differences in aerodynamics and power produced.
Either way, WVR combat generally favours slower and more maneuvreable aircraft like Vipers and Hornets and Thunders

 

[Windjammer]

Why not??? You can put stealth-paint on the "Wright Brothers Flyer" too. Can't get anything stealthier than that!!!
Or how about stealth-paint on a B747, that will make it disappear from radar screens . For now though... may be stealth paint on Windjammer's guff (aka Winds) will be quite sufficient.......

Brutus must be banging Olive again, may be you should apply some on her so he can't detect her.

 

[AMDR]

AIM-9X Block 2 ....

.....Makes maneuvering irrelevant.

4th gen fighters and HOBs AAMs = 4th gen standards
5th gen fighters and 360° LOAL AAMs = 5th gen standards

Apples and oranges

 

[Windjammer]

Hey Windy.... what is a "BVR mode" ? Is it different from a "WVR mode" on an aircraft?
How does one work that ? With a switch ? Like "shift-on-the fly 4WD" ?
Or it just a "quick coat of stealth-paint ?
@MastanKhan , I think you got just the guy you were looking for, Windy is here.

Get out more often, those call centres can play tricks with your mind,... now stop worrying about Olive for a minute and see if you can pick up the BVR mode term somewhere.

Military Analysis: VWR vs. BVR.

 

[he-man]

What a clueless assumption this is,,,coming from a senior respected member makes it even more worrisome.
Jf-17 has absolutely 0 chance against f-35 and so has f-16 and even mki for that matter.

We may like it or not but it has the most advanced sensors in the world by a long shot.The radar apg-81 has successfully jammed the famed apg-77 numerous times in mock trials.The jet comes without a HUD,basically u can control everything from ur helmet giving u a 360 degree view.

To even suggest that any 4-4.5 generation fighter has a chance against f-35 is borderline delusional and psychotic.

 

[Jungibaaz]

The F 35 is not going to be involved in dog fights. It is built to take care of enemy fighters from long range and so how it will perform in dog fights is really irrelevant.

It will definitely be involved in dogfights. They are not a thing of the past, every advancement in BVR technology, and people start assuming that closer range of engagement is a thing of the past, this is simply not true.

All aspects of a fight have associated with them, a list of probabilities, probability of interception by enemy radar, probability of detection, probability of a missile making its hit, probability of the enemy's radar and missile setting off your ECM equipment such as RWR and MAWS.

The F-35 should, in some engagements, may be able to fire away a missile against its target before being detected, and should therefore kill before it is killed. But stealth does not mean invisibility, it is making yourself seem too small, such that the enemy radar cannot differentiate between you and what it sees as clutter, thus you aren't painted as a valid target, until closer ranges, or your stealthier configuration is somehow compromised.

But, if you were to ignore all those technical details and jargon, suffice to say, the F-35 will not have it's way every time, and if it is against an as advanced target, they both may not be able to engage each other before reaching a closer range.

And in some engagements, the F-35 may not have a chance to make use of BVRAAM, and may be forced in a dogfight, take for example the Israelis, if one day, an F-35 is scrambled to respond to one aircraft passing through a buffer between the enemy territory and international boundary. Now, towards the north, at it's narrowest, Israel's geographical depth is barely 50km. From some airbases the border is barely 30km. And in the short amount of time that the F-35 takes off, precious moments are lost with the intruder closing in. If the intruder is closing in at mach 1, even 30 seconds amounts to 10km travelled. As you can see, depending on what sort of engagement the F-35 is placed in, it may never be able to use it's BVRAAM. A similar problem we had here in our neck of the woods, some bases of ours and the Indians, are not that far at all from the border, and to intercept a target closing in fast, WVR may be the only option. There are of course other situations where this may be the case too.

 

[manojb]

Question is, can 17 abbeeat 16 in exercise? Paf can answer that.

 

[volatile]

Why not??? You can put stealth-paint on the "Wright Brothers Flyer" too. Can't get anything stealthier than that!!!
Or how about stealth-paint on a B747, that will make it disappear from radar screens . For now though... may be stealth paint on Windjammer's guff (aka Winds) will be quite sufficient.......

Its not paint actually it is RAM (Radar Abosrbing Material) .

 

[egodoc222]

Jf thunder can shoot down f22 with a single bvr missile!!

 

[Gufi]

the Israelis, if one day, an F-35 is scrambled to respond to one aircraft passing through a buffer between the enemy territory and international boundary.

Which army will be entering Israeli air space?
the F 35 is not an interceptor. It will not be fielded against planes directly above it and it is not meant to be used in that context.

The F-35 should, in some engagements, may be able to fire away a missile against its target before being detected, and should therefore kill before it is killed. But stealth does not mean invisibility, it is making yourself seem too small, such that the enemy radar cannot differentiate between you and what it sees as clutter, thus you aren't painted as a valid target, until closer ranges, or your stealthier configuration is somehow compromised.

Read on the direction the drone plus the F 35 is taking and you will understand how it is meant to be fielded. . I agree that the decreased radar signature is not going to make it invisible but will give it significant advantages.

. A similar problem we had here in our neck of the woods, some bases of ours and the Indians, are not that far at all from the border, and to intercept a target closing in fast, WVR may be the only option. There are of course other situations where this may be the case too.

Yes, I agree that our borders are very close together and 5th generation jets will be useless if they are flying into the other country directly or flying in from a forward base, but rather the purpose of 5th generation fighters in this context is to fly at a distance using their BVR's to take out enemy planes without getting in their range. As the radar signature decreases the distance needed for enemy fighters to lock on to the jet increases also.
With BVR's missiles moving above 100 KM range and radar detection being difficult 5th generation planes will be far away from the actual fighting but still giving air cover.

The F 35 have not been designed to partake in close combat, and there is no situation where America will have to field it in that purpose. Yes, it may not suit the nations which buy it but will make American Air force much more capable and for the American purposes is a very potent jet.

 

[Lightning Soul]

Those members who are advocating that F-35 is not built to Dogfight but as primary Stealth Fighter envisioned for BVR Aerial engagements (True). But believing that it's so invincible that it won't indulge in a Dogfight ever (Extremely Incorrect). And HOBS is not a 5th generation technology. If F-35 can utilize it then F-16 can also and it can also be incorporated in Future blocks of JF-17.
Can someone explain me why does F-35 needed to have a Gattling Gun if the manufacturers had the surety of it not being involved in any Dogfight. Isn't a Gun a last resort in a WVR fight? I guess some members have more confidence over F-35 Stealth Characteristics than the manufacturers themselves ?

 

[Saquib]

It is all about training - How the pilots are trained - you could have the best aircraft in the world if they are badly trained the aircraft is only good as the trained pilot!

 

[Indian 71]

We can see the indian education system standard in your post.Learn some grammar,spelling and masculine,feminine before you troll.

India’s education system as a back bone towards its objectives of achieving inclusive growth.Pakistan's educational system continues to encourage anti-India sentiments and radical Islamic views. (Understand angrej ki aulad)