What's new

IDN TAKE: The Much Vilified Combat Readiness Of Arjun Main Battle Tank

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
54,470
Reaction score
87
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Arjun_MBT_IDN.jpg


Introduction

Modern tank development has failed to evolve and there is a clear lack of converge into a relatively standardized weapons platform mainly because all major powers have radically different tank designs. This is also why direct tank on tank comparisons are relatively useless, as all modern tanks are designed with somewhat different battle scenarios.

Soviet and Russian military hardware make up around 40 percent of all hardware in the Indian ground forces. The proportion is even higher in the Air Force (80 percent), and in the Navy (75 percent). In total, there are around 600 T-55 tanks, almost 2,000 T-72M1 and 640 T-90C tanks.

Vilification Campaign

Arjun_MBT_Main.jpg


The media and defense eggsperts have contrived to vilify and undermine DRDO and its achievements. Of course, not everything is hunky-dory at DRDO, they have striven to develop key technologies for the armed forces in every sector. As an illustration the operationalization of AKASH a medium-range mobile surface-to-air missile defense system and the highly sophisticated ASTRA active radar homing beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) systems are testimony to DRDO technical prowess.

The Arjun MBT has taken most of the flak from both the Army and the media. Arjun Main Battle Tank development marks the fruition of 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds. Arjun is provided with excellent mobility, superior fire power and protection and the features are quite comparable to contemporary world tanks. The Kanchan Armour, Hydro-pneumatic suspension, Armament system, Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System, system engineering and system integration of complex weapon platforms are some of the significant & standout indigenous technologies developed by DRDO for Arjun.

It is worthwhile to remember that DRDO and its subsidiary agencies started the program to develop an indigenous MBT decades ago, they had to fight several technology denial regimes after Pokhran-II, face crunching manpower shortages, confront issues related to re-establishing production lines and vendor bases, overcome critical change over and mergers of original equipment manufacturers for important components, all these factors delayed the initial commencement of production. Besides, the Army was constantly changing its battlefield requirements which had a direct impact on the Tank's delivery timelines. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak.

Why Chide the DRDO?

Arjun_MBT_4.jpg


Going by past experience, all the major tanks development projects across the globe has taken more time to bring about truly path-breaking improvements in this weapon platforms and these include mainly developed countries with outstanding technical & manufacturing infrastructure. Merkava of Isreal took 40 years and it is still deemed a failure by most pundits, Leopard of Germany took over 35 years, Abrams more than 25 years. the Chieftain MBT of UK is still serving in their armed forced with the most problematic engine. After 13 years, T-95 is still a work-in-progress system in Russia. If one has a measure of what is being attempted in shaping futuristic tanks, there are several areas — electro magnetic armor unmanned turret, use of composites and lighter chassis, total missile launching facility and more importantly, choosing invisibility over invincibility, all in their infancy stage of development.

The ARJUN Mk-2 variant developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) essentially grew out of the Indian Army's recommended upgrades post the Arjun Mk-I's comparative trials with the T-90S. The ARJUN outran and outgunned the T-90 in all parameters during 2010 comparative trials (detailed below). The tank underwent two more critical trial phases supervised by the Indian Army, pertaining to mobility in water (medium fording), mobility across obstacles, missile firing and fresh regular ammunition firing routines. These rounds were undertaken during the summer months, with a handful of test points completed by November 2015, with final reports being compiled and completed in January 2015. The results were favorable and on expected lines. Subsequently Israeli military observers had also testified that the ARJUN MBT is an awesome fighting machine.

Contingent Interests

proxy


The Army will only be able to put together, as in old times, a melange of promised and mostly untested systems, cut and pasted from glossy brochures from greedy & aggressive arms merchants or a mere wish-list. We must consider our terrain and battle conditions and not opt for tanks just because they are from Russia or the US or appear exciting in promotional media.

The Army insisted on testing the equipment repeatedly almost every winter and every summer, in every desert and every mountain, making each piece produced a prototype. The DRDO was will-nilly forced to commit itself to such procedures as would have been unimaginable to be imposed on any foreign supplier.

Anyone who has followed the chequered history of Arjun’s development would most certainly confirm that the Army has been less than fair in its handling of issues arising out of inducting indigenous tanks and deploying them. Hence, the setback for the Arjun is the lack of commitment by the Indian Army. Recent history has proved time and again, where the Generals & MoD officials are seemingly on the look-out for lucaritive foreign jaunts and payoffs. Therefore, the focus now is directed on the much hyped Russian ARMATA tank.

Obviously there has to be some reasons apart from the above the Indian army is backtracking in operating the Arjuns.

The initial list of faults after twenty years of development of Arjun Mk 1 were not encouraging:

  • Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break-down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel.
  • The Commanders Periscopic Sight, the Laser Warning Sight and the Muzzle Reference Sight have been found unreliable.
  • The fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius.
  • Since the Arjun extends 6cm beyond the official 3cm limit on either side of a standard Indian flatbed railcar, strategic transport would be extremely difficult. This would also require that India refurbish large sections of her rail network, as well as acquiring new rolling stock.
  • The German MTU MB 838 Ka-SOl 1 ,4OOhp diesel engine and transmission derated at high temperatures, with an estimated 20-25% power loss from engine to drive sprocket while operating in desert temperatures of 45-500 Celcius.
  • Ammunition stowage had to be reduced in order to increase engine cooling pack. This powerpack choice also resulted in bulges in the hull side walls.
  • The problems with the hydropneumatic suspension can possibly be linked to the Arjun's difficulty in climbing sand dunes and other obstacles easily, with a sharp drop in speed in its attempt to do so. CVRDE later rectified the other problems in the hydro-pneumatic suspension.
  • The defects noticed during the user trials of Mk 1 , including overheating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had been by and large overcome and other complaints were being addressed.

Contrast this with the case of the T-72 or T-90. The Soviets - Russians sent a few tanks for testing and the Russian Army made up its mind in a matter of less than three years on quantity and variants, convinced the civilian bureaucracy and ordered hundreds of them at one go. It is not that T-72s or T-90s functioned without any technical glitches in operation and maintenance. Even now, T-90s are reportedly yet to overcome the problem of losing accuracy due to overheating, although they were cleared after due desert trials.

Indian T-72s have had their share of snags such as bursting of barrels, inconsistent accuracy, heating of engines, faulty ammunition loading and so on. Their communication sets are still primitive. The laser range finders had to be sent back to Russia in bulk for rectification.

Arjun - A Proven Platform

Arjun_MBT_2.jpg


A comparative trial was conducted by the Indian Army in March 2010, in which the Arjun was pitted against the T-90. Arjun emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian tank and it demonstrated excellent performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately terminating targets – both stationary and moving with pin pointed accuracy. It displayed accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements. The Kanchan class armour of Arjun is probably the best of the technologies employed which derives its name from Kanchan Bagh, Hyderabad, where the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) is located. The amour was able to take the brunt of high precision and deadly Israeli anti tank munitions. An army officer remarked that the Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen. In short ARJUN MBT outran and out gunned the T-90 in all parameters.

Conclusion

After more than three decades of development, India’s Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) has literally emerged like a phoenix from the ashes, surprising even its most sceptical observers.The immediate need in the case of Arjun is to thwart any misguided attempts by the Army to throw the baby with the bath water. The time, effort and money spent on development of indigenous fighting equipment, including Arjun, should not be squandered away in pursuit of pipe-dreams on technology or mindless fascination for foreign wares. It is quite obvious that the Indian Army is not serious in backing the defense research & manufacturing agencies to develop a sustainable indigenous tank. (Text adapted from Sputnik News, The Hindu, Economic Times, NIE & The Diplomat)

Admin - IDN

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/idn-take-much-vilified-combat-readiness.html?m=1
 
Army is bribe hungry

1) Desi mentality always has more faith in videsi maal than desi. This is not just limited to defence forces. Back in the days ECIL use to sell color TVs for Rs 6000 and people use to buy the Dyanora TV for Rs 10000.

2) Project Management 101 - It is always difficult to manage and deliver to an internal customer than external customer.
 
@Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec

Read somewhere, in a trial, the DRDO found the deliberate removal of the engine oil, so that the impression of engine failure and breakdown in cross country run, later on the DRDO have to fit black box device prevent such things.

@fsayed

Not all are bribe hungry, and one more reason why IA is reluctant to add Arjun Heavy Main Battle tank, might be because in decades the Indian Army have developed the tactics around the Russian T-72 tank, and with the induction of Arjun in high number, they have to work again to formulate on the tactics and strategies of the Armour utilization. The points like its too heavy is bull shit, because if you are asking for the crew protection of Leopard with 4 man crew (manual loader), the wt. is bound to be around 60 Tons. P.S All top MBT Abraham, Leopard, and British Challenger is around 60 Tons.

Since the Arjun extends 6cm beyond the official 3cm limit on either side of a standard Indian flatbed railcar, strategic transport would be extremely difficult. This would also require that India refurbish large sections of her rail network, as well as acquiring new rolling stock.

Bullshit, what a 3 c.m extension on the either side could make a difference in case of strategically.
 
@Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec

Read somewhere, in a trial, the DRDO found the deliberate removal of the engine oil, so that the impression of engine failure and breakdown in cross country run, later on the DRDO have to fit black box device prevent such things.

@fsayed

Not all are bribe hungry, and one more reason why IA is reluctant to add Arjun Heavy Main Battle tank, might be because in decades the Indian Army have developed the tactics around the Russian T-72 tank, and with the induction of Arjun in high number, they have to work again to formulate on the tactics and strategies of the Armour utilization. The points like its too heavy is bull shit, because if you are asking for the crew protection of Leopard with 4 man crew (manual loader), the wt. is bound to be around 60 Tons. P.S All top MBT Abraham, Leopard, and British Challenger is around 60 Tons.
Sorry man, there is no possible scenario, where you cannot induct a Tank that can outrun, outgun, and out-survive the current mainstay/

There is nexus of Military and a particular PSu that I won't name here that is running this racket to ensure that Arjun doesn't see the light of the day....

Here is an option: Write to PMO about the Arjun, I am sure someone will hear.

Project Management 101 - It is always difficult to manage and deliver to an internal customer than external customer.
:o::o::o::o:
 
Sorry man, there is no possible scenario, where you cannot induct a Tank that can outrun, outgun, and out-survive the current mainstay/

There is nexus of Military and a particular PSu that I won't name here that is running this racket to ensure that Arjun doesn't see the light of the day....

Here is an option: Write to PMO about the Arjun, I am sure someone will hear.


:o::o::o::o:
It's not nexus of Military. Your Arjun is a disaster and your Army is not going to risk its soldiers for a disaster.
 
@Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec

Read somewhere, in a trial, the DRDO found the deliberate removal of the engine oil, so that the impression of engine failure and breakdown in cross country run, later on the DRDO have to fit black box device prevent such things.


I remember reading about that way back then and thought it was absurd, but after the CAG report of them deliberately reducing the intensity of the parameters for the T90 in the trials against Arjun, it's not absurd or a far fetched thing at all. Some of the parameters were even completely skipped for the T90.

It's not a hunch anymore about foul play. It's literally on paper. Seriously, some people made money off this deal.
 
Last edited:
Yes. You read is correctly.
Not the way we manage our projects.
Client side projects are way more complex than our own, but then again I mostly deal with capital equipment.

It's not nexus of Military. Your Arjun is a disaster and your Army is not going to risk its soldiers for a disaster.

sincere advise,
Learn a little more on the topic and then come back if you are really interested in learning about the Arjun situation. Getting an objective overview on your adversaries system is a pretty good advantage, case and point @Oscar . If the intent is to score brownie points that score away, the goal post is empty.
 
Last edited:
Not the way we manage our projects.
Client side projects are way more complex than our own, but then again I mostly deal with capital equipment.



sincere advise,
Learn a little more on the topic and then come back if you are really interested in learning about the Arjun situation. Getting an objective overview on your adversaries system is a pretty good advantage, case and point @Oscar . If the intent is to score brownie points that score away, the goal post is empty.
The Arjun is just another case of moving goalposts with unrealistic ambitions.
To me the idea of a heavy tank in the subcontinent is a quagmire. Our terrain does not permit the sledgehammer rolls anymore and with both sides having anti-tank defences that would make the Maginot line look tame, the best thing that works is fast armour. The Arjun is neither, it is a tank well designed for the counter steamroller approach taken by the Germans against Soviet Russia. Even then, the Leo is a much more agile system; the Arjun plagued by mismanagement.

Currently, the best solution for India lies not in the Arjun but looking to create a midway platform with the T-90 and the Arjun. Although, in my opinion that platform that really fits like a glove to the IBG concept is the Merkava. Being survivable, packing a punch and also able to carry a few troops into combat.
 
The Arjun is just another case of moving goalposts with unrealistic ambitions.
To me the idea of a heavy tank in the subcontinent is a quagmire. Our terrain does not permit the sledgehammer rolls anymore and with both sides having anti-tank defences that would make the Maginot line look tame, the best thing that works is fast armour. The Arjun is neither, it is a tank well designed for the counter steamroller approach taken by the Germans against Soviet Russia. Even then, the Leo is a much more agile system; the Arjun plagued by mismanagement.

Currently, the best solution for India lies not in the Arjun but looking to create a midway platform with the T-90 and the Arjun. Although, in my opinion that platform that really fits like a glove to the IBG concept is the Merkava. Being survivable, packing a punch and also able to carry a few troops into combat.


I thought so too, until I read a bit about it here, Arjun has lower Ground pressure than that of T90M, giving it better cross country performance as shown in the trials, also it's suspension makes it more accurate compared to the T90. Arjun beats the T90 comprehensively in almost all parameters with the user vying it to fail. The mismanagement to my knowledge stems from the same cartel that got us the utterly useless recovery vehicles pocketing millions.
Also Merkava is heavier than the Arjun. If IA was interested in the Merkava, it would have been here the within six months, What Arjun needs is a MoD that has a backbone and not blind as it has been in the past (check what was AK Antony's reaction to VK Singh's Tatra issue).
Tomorrow, Arjun gets scrapped, and IA will sign up for the Armata, and will induct it without trials, carriages, ammunition, concerns or criticism. Under Parrikar local product will get some more backing, but DRDO did not deliver either the suspension, FCS or the powerpack. It was exactly as dismal as the LCA, but the MK2 product with the German Pwerpack, suspension and Israeli FCS is exactly on the same roadmap as the LCA's fate.
 
@MilSpec

Far as I know, the suspension is still from DRDO on Mark 2. And FCS is being produced by TATA Power SED, ToT given by IRDE-DRDO.

Edit, sorry, its the FCC produced by TATA.
 
Last edited:
Sorry man, there is no possible scenario, where you cannot induct a Tank that can outrun, outgun, and out-survive the current mainstay/

There is nexus of Military and a particular PSu that I won't name here that is running this racket to ensure that Arjun doesn't see the light of the day....

Here is an option: Write to PMO about the Arjun, I am sure someone will hear.


:o::o::o::o:

Military to foreign vendors arms lobby I can understand but a nexus between our Army and our own PSU makes me :crazy::crazy:
 
Back
Top Bottom