IDN TAKE: HAL LCH Vs Changhe Z-10

[21 Dec 2012]

@hellfire @Blue Marlin
I've got what you're looking for

Do not blame me ye copyrioght.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=701092

ray sir, as I said vikram_s' posts had the relevant articles.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... -of-3.html
Quote:
As the shuddering helicopter bears down on the tiny helipad atop a needle of ice at 20,997 feet(= 6400 meters), the rotor blades struggle to extract lift from the rarefied air. This is the ultimate test for helicopters. But the army’s new Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has proved that it can land at Sonam, bringing in much larger payloads than the Cheetah helicopters that have laboriously sustained the jawans in Sonam for the last two decades.


http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070220_alh_dhruv.htm
Quote:
ALH Dhruv clears high-altitude tests, will join Siachen fleetnews
20 February 2007


Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.


also :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 437840.cms
Quote:
Bangalore ALH pilots fly high
Prashanth G N, TNN 8 October 2007, 01:31am IST


Three of its pilots were the first to take the ALH to heights higher than Manasbal, which was also the first time an Indian helicopter was taken to that height.

C D Upadhyay, Unni Pillai and M U Khan flew the ALH at an incredible altitude of 27,500 feet (= 8382 meters !

MIght I mention that this is the ONLY helicopter in the world with such high altitude performance ?! ) in the Siachen area braving icy winds.

Upadhyay describes that flight: "We started climbing stage by stage... 20,000 feet, 23, 24, 25, 26 and then 27,500. It had never been done before. We were hovering and watching a Cheetal (another helicopter) land just below us at 25,100 feet. Landing at that height isn’t easy. We were ready to pick up the pilot if something went wrong.

"Naturally, we had to be at a higher altitude. It was cold and we were wrapped in woollens. There wasn't a single rattle at 27,500 ft... We'd worked out if the Cheetal {cheetal is a cheetah with the more powerful TM3332B2, same engine as used in the initial version of the Dhruv}could make 25,000 feet, the ALH could do more. We hadn't tried it on the Siachen Glacier. We succeeded."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots tried out the copter at that height above the Leh runway and the hills before taking on the glacier.

Minutes before the flight, Upadhyay said: "We checked the engine, then the software. It was fine. We were confident the copter would perform 100 per cent. Then we checked on the oxygen. At 27,000 feet, you need pressurised oxygen and a continuous supply. We ensured that. We did all the checks. We just took-off. The ALH was a beauty."

Upadhyay and his co-pilots were the first to put the ALH through the glacier. They flew it in extreme cold conditions. They flew it after an overnight soak. Then in chilly winds, almost blizzard-like conditions.

Upadhyay and co. did not have risk on their mind. "We didn't have the time to think. So there was no worrying. In any case, flying is part of our life. We have done it before and we'll keep doing it in future. If you love what you do, you don't think of what turns out for you. You learn to expect that in a pilot's life."


Sir, do you wonder why we don't hold much with CAG's biles ?

Note on the dhruv programme : the helo was initially cleared for service with twin TM333 2B2 (1000 shp each) with the understanding that the more powerful shakti engine (1200 shp each) under joint development with TM at that time will be used in later versions. that is how military projects are developed the world over, you don't get the best version on day one.

IIRC army was the first recipient of the initial TM 333 versions since it had a pressing need for utility helos. it is myopic, obnoxious, misleading and sheer incompetence on the part of CAG to castigate a very successful program due to sheer lethargy.

an audit that comes two years late has absolutely no relevance to a dynamic project.

P.S. I'll move the latest discussions to army thread and/or mil aviation.

 

[Hellfire]

so i shall await for the pics

No idea when that might be ...

so does that mean i have to go all the way to india to ask? why dont you ask since you have been in one.

Told you, not an expert here. Will have to ask the Ecuadorians ....

ahh yes a mig21 and 27 was brought down via manpad.
were these counter measures in place last time?

Dealt with at a different thread.

Mi-17 shot down was bereft of IR countermeasures as the original 4th heli of the flight was grounded just before the requisition of strike mission and the pilot decided to take this yet to be retrofitted machine in order to ensure air support for the attacking infantry. The other three had the IR countermeasures and plan was this heli to be curtained by them. The swarm of manpads and the resultant manoeuvres left this heli exposed and so was shot down.

Mig 27 - engine

Mig 21 shot down ...

@hellfire @Blue Marlin
I've got what you're looking for

Do not blame me ye copyrioght.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=701092

he is looking for a pic with over 22000 ft ...

 

[21 Dec 2012]

he is looking for a pic with over 22000 ft ...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/in-siachen-dhruv-proves-world-beater.html

I'm sure it took me less effort to look this up in google than it did for the posts you two wrote.

 

[danger007]

I fail to understand ..... U are user not a manufacturer . What is the big insult in for u?
So your understanding is that LCH and Z10 ia gonna have Arieal dual ? Or are u saying since ( according to u ) LCH is ugly u will leave ur troops to LCH ?
Funny guy..

this guy is ground nut... they can scan entire heli with eyes...

 

[HAIDER]

so you think LCH is fat and ugly good for us in a way

lol....forum getting very serious those days...need lighter mood sometime..

 

[Joe Shearer]

so i shall await for the pics


so does that mean i have to go all the way to india to ask? why dont you ask since you have been in one.



ahh yes a mig21 and 27 was brought down via manpad.
were these counter measures in place last time?

The MiG21 was shot down by a MANPAD.

The MiG27 had engine failure. It shot off its rockets and the engine ingested the exhaust and shut down.

 

[Joe Shearer]

tthe mig 21 was brought down via manpad and dont the mig 27 have twin engines? so the both engines on the mig 27 failed at the same time?

Are you sure about the twin engines? I was under the impression that it had a single engine. And that is what makes sense in terms of the Air Chief's report about the probable cause of failure.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Are you sure about the twin engines? I was under the impression that it had a single engine. And that is what makes sense in terms of the Air Chief's report about the probable cause of failure.

oop's i would assume it wouls have 2 engines like the su-24. but dont you think its suspicious that it crashed during a war? im not saying i dont believe it but im sceptical on it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

oop's i would assume it wouls have 2 engines like the su-24. but dont you think its suspicious that it crashed during a war? im not saying i dont believe it but im sceptical on it.

It was an adaptation of the MiG23 Flogger, which was a pure fighter-bomber with some ground attack capabilities (that version was also in the IAF inventory, to supplement the minimalistic MiG21); in the MiG27, they lightened and hardened the airframe, AFAIK. The engine remained the same.

Some background may be useful.

Tipnis wrote after Kargil that there was a short, very intense exchange between the IAF and the IA, immediately after the IA found that its initial assessments were dead wrong, and that the Pakistanis had mounted a major operation, with the mountain-top outposts acting as spotters for interdicting artillery fire on the main supply road to Siachen.

The basic IA 'demand', put very forcefully, was that the IAF should get stuck immediately; in particular, they wanted choppers in action asap, attacking the posts. The IAF flatly refused to jump in without figuring out what was going on, and what they would have to do. As the argument developed, it became clear that without IAF participation, the infantry casualty rate would jump up many times more; as it was, the posts had to be attacked in frontal assaults at the end of a climb of many hundred metres. The IAF Chief took a call, very reluctantly, to fly sorties against the outposts, using mainly the MiG27. The reluctance was because of the need to fly ground attack missions at heights which brought the aircraft well within MANPAD range. In the event, they decided not to fly chopper missions as the mainstay but to use fixed wing aircraft. Ordnance used was guns, rockets and iron bombs.

The pilot of the MiG27 fired his rockets at extreme limits of the prescribed use, in thin air, and apparently from positions which allowed the accidental ingestion of gas to happen. The engine flamed out, and although the pilot tried repeatedly to re-ignite it, that did not happen, and he bailed out. Tipnis emphasised that the use of rockets was well outside the allowed conditions; he seems to have been convinced that this is what happened.

There have been accidents involving the MiG27 in peaceful conditions, although far fewer than accidents involving the MiG21.

Does that help?

 

[Hellfire]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/in-siachen-dhruv-proves-world-beater.html

I'm sure it took me less effort to look this up in google than it did for the posts you two wrote.

Thanks for the post, been running busy ... hence the delay