IDEX 2017: PAKISTAN REPORTEDLY EXPRESSES INTEREST IN SERBIAN ARMAMENTS

[Shiji]

But one would consider that even with systems meeting these parameters on paper; you need to verify them. After all these are not paper cups in the mess hall that one can simply take on face value;
On paper both harris systems and Aselsan sdr's have similar performance but in actual tests it was different ; not to mention the price point

Oh no. The systems go through rigorous field trials and believe me EVERYTHING is tested and measured.
Fun fact : the company techs that come with them are quite worried about their system performance after they are briefed what we have planned.
We donot have the luxury of buying new equipment and then finding out that it was the wrong thing for the wrong job.
So rest assured this is taken very seriously.

 

[Path-Finder]

Note, Turkey's MKEK is developing a wheeled SPH using the Panter, which the Army already operates.

I saw the mockup of those and they are similar to the French Caesar, But Turkey is developing smart ammo as well that is what our interest ought to be on!

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

The chinese are coming up with amazing smart artillery too. Mainly on par with USA smart weapons.

 

[imadul]

When will the deal gonna be signed

As soon as you charge on your AmEx card

 

[SQ8]

Oh no. The systems go through rigorous field trials and believe me EVERYTHING is tested and measured.
Fun fact : the company techs that come with them are quite worried about their system performance after they are briefed what we have planned.
We donot have the luxury of buying new equipment and then finding out that it was the wrong thing for the wrong job.
So rest assured this is taken very seriously.

In that light, why do you seem to be suggesting that we not go through the same rigorous testing for the nora as was done for the denel product

 

[Zarvan]

In that light, why do you seem to be suggesting that we not go through the same rigorous testing for the nora as was done for the denel product

Sir most weapons hardly meet our standards just look at the AL KHALID the initially had totally different things than we changed almost everything inside from engine to every other system was pretty much changed. So I am pretty sure whether Nora comes or South African comes or if we plan to have 500 of them than I won't be surprised both come and 250 each. Still we would make lot of changes in them to meet our requirements.

 

[Signalian]

Acquiring 500 wheeled Artillery systems would mean that PA is seriously thinking about mechanisation and motorisation of its forces. This opens up many options where these new wheeled SPG's could be inducted.

Pakistan's strike formations. I and II Corps have 1 Armoured Division and 2 Infantry Divisions each. Upgrading 1 of the 2 Infantry Divisions into Mechanised/Motorised Division could be on the cards. A mechanised division can also give extra firepower while keeping pace with Armoured Divisions. 17th ID and 14th ID which are support Divisions for 6th Armoured Div and 1st Armoured Div respectively, were slated to be upgraded.
The influx of APC's increased in PA after induction of Talha and its related series on top of M-113 variants. In recent Ops, it was also observed that PA troops now travel in 4x4 pick ups than being ferried in truck, in hostile environment. This means PA is serious about mechanisation of its formations. If the Division's towed artillery is replaced with Self Propelled Guns, this would give the the Division complete mobility for all operations.

The next candidate candidate can be the Independent Artillery Brigades under Corps HQ. Almost every Corps HQ has this artillery Brigade. Inducting one SPG regiment while keeping other Regiments towed could give the Corps HQ flexibility in providing support to the operations of its Independent Armoured Brigades, which coincidentally almost every Corps HQ possesses.
The Independent Armoured brigades are the main offensive formation of any Corps HQ having Infantry divisions only. These Brigades can effectively block the incursion of Indian Armoured and Mechanised brigades under IA CSD doctrine. They are also instrumental in proving to be a harassing force to keep enemy formations off balance from conducting a major strike into Pakistan. When employed with Armoured Divisions, they can even lend their regiments to the Armoured Division, swelling up its strength.
Attaching a self propelled Artillery Regiment with these Armoured Brigades can make them more effective.

PA has at least one Artillery Division, which is employed to bombard an area continuously for as long as its required. Induction of one brigade of SPG's into this Artillery Division can firstly give the division capability to conduct operations with armoured and mechanised formations. The shoot and scoot capability of SPG's enhance the division's operational abilities to conduct Counter battery ops, not just depending on range only but mobility also.

With the induction of 500 guns, a new Artillery Division/New Artillery Brigades could also be formed by filling in guns which have been replaced by the SPG's, unless those guns are already slated for retirement(reserve) or will be given to Paramilitary formations.

Considering a 18-gun medium regiment schematics, 500 SPG's can replace/form 27 Artillery Regiments in PA.
If 3 Regiments each go to newly converted Mechanised Divisions (total 6 SPG regiments), 7-9 Regiments allotted to each Corps HQ (total 7-9 SPG Regiments), 3 Regiments forming a Brigade attached with Artillery Division (Total 3 SPG Regiments), PA will still be having 9-11 SPG regiments which could help form another Artillery Division or at least 2-3 more Independent Artillery Brigades.

@Ulla

 

[Gryphon]

Pakistan's strike formations. I and II Corps have 1 Armoured Division and 2 Infantry Divisions each. Upgrading 1 of the 2 Infantry Divisions into Mechanised/Motorised Division could be on the cards. A mechanised division can also give extra firepower while keeping pace with Armoured Divisions. 17th ID and 14th ID which are support Divisions for 6th Armoured Div and 1st Armoured Div respectively, were slated to be upgraded.
The influx of APC's increased in PA after induction of Talha and its related series on top of M-113 variants. In recent Ops, it was also observed that PA troops now travel in 4x4 pick ups than being ferried in truck, in hostile environment. This means PA is serious about mechanisation of its formations. If the Division's towed artillery is replaced with Self Propelled Guns, this would give the the Division complete mobility for all operations.

According to globalsecurity.org, 17 Infantry Division and 37 Infantry Division (both part of I Corps - Mangla) are Mechanized.

However, another source pakdef.org suggests that:

Some reports say Norinco SH-1 was tested in GB (December 2007) and Cholistan Desert (June 2008). You now have a hint where the Nora / Denel SPH will go.

 

[Gryphon]

The influx of APC's increased in PA after induction of Talha and its related series on top of M-113 variants. In recent Ops, it was also observed that PA troops now travel in 4x4 pick ups than being ferried in truck, in hostile environment. This means PA is serious about mechanisation of its formations.

The Indian concept of RAPIDs (each with 2x Infantry brigades, 1x Armoured brigade (i.e. 2x MBT regiments and 2x IFV regiments)) is rather impressive.

It does not appear Pakistani mechanized divisions are equipped with MBT's. Does each Pakistani mechanized brigade have 3x mechanized regiments?

Meanwhile, China has recently displayed an IFV based on Type 59 tank chassis. An opportunity exists for PA to convert a part of its massive inventory of Type 59's into IFV's, which in turn can be used alongside ATGM mounted APC's like Maaz.

ZTZ-59 HIFV
China's first heavy infantry fighting vehicle uses the chassis of the ZTZ-59 (a copy of the Russian T-54) main battle tank.
Oedo Soldier

The ZTZ-59 tank, a 60-year workhorse copied off the Soviet T-54 tank, got a new lease of life in the form of a heavy IFV (or HIFV). The HIFV mod weighs about 40 tons and can carry up to seven passengers. So what new tricks has the old dog learned? Modifications include moving the engine to the front of the vehicle chassis, increasing tank armor on all sides, and installing a rear door for dismounting infantry.

Its 105mm cannon and the entire turret have been replaced with a much smaller turret consisting of a 30mm autocannon, a searchlight, and electro-optical sensors. The HIFV's bulky, all-aspect armor would make it well suited for either urban combat or high-end warfare in open environments. Likely customers could be existing T-54/T-55 buyers in the Middle East, particularly those looking for armored vehicles to fight insurgents in urban environments.

https://www.popsci.com/china-has-fleet-new-armor-vehicles



Maaz is already in service (in small numbers though).

PA has at least one Artillery Division, which is employed to bombard an area continuously for as long as its required.

There are two Artillery divisions in PA, the 21st Artillery Div based at Pano Aqil (currently deployed to Swat) and 2nd Artillery Div based at Gujranwala.

 

[Signalian]

The Indian concept of RAPIDs (each with 2x Infantry brigades, 1x Armoured brigade (i.e. 2x MBT regiments and 2x IFV regiments)) is rather impressive.

It does not appear Pakistani mechanized divisions are equipped with MBT's. Does each Pakistani mechanized brigade have 3x mechanized regiments?

Meanwhile, China has recently displayed an IFV based on Type 59 tank chassis. An opportunity exists for PA to convert a part of its massive inventory of Type 59's into IFV's, which in turn can be used alongside ATGM mounted APC's like Maaz.

ZTZ-59 HIFV
China's first heavy infantry fighting vehicle uses the chassis of the ZTZ-59 (a copy of the Russian T-54) main battle tank.
Oedo Soldier

The ZTZ-59 tank, a 60-year workhorse copied off the Soviet T-54 tank, got a new lease of life in the form of a heavy IFV (or HIFV). The HIFV mod weighs about 40 tons and can carry up to seven passengers. So what new tricks has the old dog learned? Modifications include moving the engine to the front of the vehicle chassis, increasing tank armor on all sides, and installing a rear door for dismounting infantry.

Its 105mm cannon and the entire turret have been replaced with a much smaller turret consisting of a 30mm autocannon, a searchlight, and electro-optical sensors. The HIFV's bulky, all-aspect armor would make it well suited for either urban combat or high-end warfare in open environments. Likely customers could be existing T-54/T-55 buyers in the Middle East, particularly those looking for armored vehicles to fight insurgents in urban environments.

https://www.popsci.com/china-has-fleet-new-armor-vehicles



Maaz is already in service (in small numbers though).

There are two Artillery divisions in PA, the 21st Artillery Div based at Pano Aqil (currently deployed to Swat) and 2nd Artillery Div based at Gujranwala.

Composition of PA armour formations and equipment in some regiments is smaller when compared with IA. But PA formations are fully functional having adequate support arm formations in place.

PA mechanised forces operate behind armoured forces and the APC are mainly used as battle taxis to ferry across infantry quickly keeping up with MBT's.

Regarding a heavier APC/IFV. The M113 has its own limitations but it was not really intended as an IFV.
It has thin armoured direct engagement is not preferred. Aluminium catches fire and burns quickly. Dismounted infantry gives more firepower from various positions and can target more enemies than a single IFV in limited time thus making battles shorter and provide higher survival chances for all troops.

Dismounted infantry carries different weapons( RPG, mortar, LMG etc) so provides variety of fire options.
Lastly, when APC/IFV are engaged in combat and if destroyed means lesser transport available for advance or retreat burdening logistics and hampering operations.

The firepower of MBT main gun is unparalleled in battlefield be it 125mm or 120mm. It's becoming easier to counter an ATGM threat than stopping a tank SABOT/HEAT round. The 25mm or 30mm cannon of IFV are effective in certain cases but a MBT main gun can take on all targets. the 12.7mm of APC can provide a good cover but is used if directly confronting with lightly equipped enemy.

For an IFV to survive in direct combat, it not only needs heavy armour but also relayed electronics like IBMS to prove useful in providing firepower effectively, active and passive protection, maybe ERA etc and this all comes at a price. Basically it needs to be equipped and armoured almost like an MBT to survive in battlefield.
Secondly, PA is already short on tanks and needs MBT in reserve for war time replacements. The western front needs to remain equipped also due to WOT so FC has been provided MBT's. In such a scenario it seems PA won't follow Chinese HIFV or Israeli Namer concept.

PA tracked and wheeled ATGM carriers are exclusively used in areas where IA armour threat is imminent. But these systems are not fire on the move systems so best used defensively. Similarly dismounted infantry can also used shoulder based ATGM.

The concept of mechanised divisions(not in strike Corps) in PA is to quickly cross IB and capture territory in enemy area. They will have support of Corps armour assets like independent armour brigade or divisions own armour regiments.

It's important to have MRAP's rather than concentrate on IFV for mechanised divisions because the current war on western front needs MRAPS's to save lives of PA soldiers.

 

[Signalian]

And just to add, it's better to make up for deficiency in one area by putting another kind of weapon to counter balance the fire power e.g if PA mechanised forces use APC with less fire power and no direct confrontation then attaching gun ships and UCAV's with such formations to provide extra fire power can be a good tactic.

 

[Vapnope]

Is there any plan to acquire A 200 MRL from China?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

And just to add, it's better to make up for deficiency in one area by putting another kind of weapon to counter balance the fire power e.g if PA mechanised forces use APC with less fire power and no direct confrontation then attaching gun ships and UCAV's with such formations to provide extra fire power can be a good tactic.

I wonder if anybody ever considered the idea if turning obsolete Type55/59/69 etc into “Terminator” type IFV like russians..BMPT71

Is there any plan to acquire A 200 MRL from China?

No, but an advanced MLRS is under development.

 

[Gryphon]

Composition of PA armour formations and equipment in some regiments is smaller when compared with IA. But PA formations are fully functional having adequate support arm formations in place.

PA mechanised forces operate behind armoured forces and the APC are mainly used as battle taxis to ferry across infantry quickly keeping up with MBT's.

Regarding a heavier APC/IFV. The M113 has its own limitations but it was not really intended as an IFV.
It has thin armoured direct engagement is not preferred. Aluminium catches fire and burns quickly. Dismounted infantry gives more firepower from various positions and can target more enemies than a single IFV in limited time thus making battles shorter and provide higher survival chances for all troops.

Dismounted infantry carries different weapons( RPG, mortar, LMG etc) so provides variety of fire options.
Lastly, when APC/IFV are engaged in combat and if destroyed means lesser transport available for advance or retreat burdening logistics and hampering operations.

The firepower of MBT main gun is unparalleled in battlefield be it 125mm or 120mm. It's becoming easier to counter an ATGM threat than stopping a tank SABOT/HEAT round. The 25mm or 30mm cannon of IFV are effective in certain cases but a MBT main gun can take on all targets. the 12.7mm of APC can provide a good cover but is used if directly confronting with lightly equipped enemy.

For an IFV to survive in direct combat, it not only needs heavy armour but also relayed electronics like IBMS to prove useful in providing firepower effectively, active and passive protection, maybe ERA etc and this all comes at a price. Basically it needs to be equipped and armoured almost like an MBT to survive in battlefield.
Secondly, PA is already short on tanks and needs MBT in reserve for war time replacements. The western front needs to remain equipped also due to WOT so FC has been provided MBT's. In such a scenario it seems PA won't follow Chinese HIFV or Israeli Namer concept.

PA tracked and wheeled ATGM carriers are exclusively used in areas where IA armour threat is imminent. But these systems are not fire on the move systems so best used defensively. Similarly dismounted infantry can also used shoulder based ATGM.

The concept of mechanised divisions(not in strike Corps) in PA is to quickly cross IB and capture territory in enemy area. They will have support of Corps armour assets like independent armour brigade or divisions own armour regiments.

It's important to have MRAP's rather than concentrate on IFV for mechanised divisions because the current war on western front needs MRAPS's to save lives of PA soldiers.

I am asking if Pakistani mechanized divisions have 'own' armoured regiments ??

And, Pakistan does not possess any shoulder based ATGM. However, Alcotan 100 AT rockets were purchased.

 

[YeBeWarned]

No, but an advanced MLRS is under development.

This mlrs you say are under development , is it based on a-100 design ?