Ideas to improve R&D in Pakistan

[JamD]

I have views which likely will drag this discussion further, but you do raise important points and I appreciate your time in sharing them with me.

OK, on a crux, lets for a millisecond imagine, something could be done in the field of R&D.

Please for a moment forget the naysayers, the bad experiences, the monotony that is bad news about Pakistani this and that lol

Let's say we were to take a step forward in the direction of R&D, (forget that it will fail or produce no results)
What steps, in your opinion we should or could take that will get us going into the right direction.
A positive answer will be appreciated a million, billion trillion times

Yes I understand your concern. I can be overly negative sometimes We have to keep hope alive always of course.

For starters I would staff HEC with educationists and policy makers with experience in education and let it be independent. This will probably lead to a freeze in the construction of new university (buildings) that we seem to have a massive boner for. I would hope that this would lead to the rationalization of faculty advancement criteria so that they are less about papers submitted to paid paper mills and more about research output measured by papers in internationally recognized journals, patents, and/or business value.

I would ask SPD, PA, PAF, PN, FIA, etc to fund research through the HEC - I believe the same is done here in the US by their agencies through NSF and DARPA. This will massively increase the pie of funding available for HEC funding and will feed R&D into a sector where we actually have a half-decent industry - the military industry.

I would ask HEC to introduce an internship program - much like the coop program in Canada. This will be prone to misuses so this needs to be well thought out. You can even send people to Turkey (they have signed an MoU for Azeri student interships, I even know of some Pakistanis that have gone). These need to be paid internships. I am thinking in terms of STEM majors - I don't think I can speak for nonSTEM fields.

 

[peagle]

new university (buildings) that we seem to have a massive boner for.

this actually created this reaction


I might need to clean my carpet lol

 

[FuturePAF]

Also, Pakistani R&D in general and Pakistani military R&D are different discussions. I've written a lot (too much) on military R&D. It is actually one of the sectors that might already have a semblance of an industry.

Since the thread seemed to be about R&D in general I felt the need to say things about our absent industries.

while they are different, it’s about the mindset. The got to get it done attitude Air Marshall Latif showed is what our civilian companies need.

In the 50-80s the Japanese companies had a similar mindset in become the industry leaders across many fields. They would even talk about how to outcompete industrial rivals in military terms like “frontal attack” and “pincher”, etc, if memory serves me right.

Review: Understanding the Japanese "Economic Miracle" on JSTOR

Understanding the Japanese "Economic Miracle", The Brookings Bulletin, Vol. 13, No. 1 (Winter 1976), pp. 4-7

www.jstor.org

Instead of thinking about R&D maybe we need to adopt a Japanese practice and create our own MITI; Ministry of International Trade and Industry. A one stop government agency to guide industrial policy, fund research and direct investment. They were the ones that got most of the major private Japanese tech companies together to cooperate and become a leader in Chip Manufacturing.

 

[JamD]

Instead of thinking about R&D maybe we need to adopt a Japanese practice and create our own MITI; Ministry of International Trade and Industry. A one stop government agency to guide industrial policy, fund research and direct investment. They were the ones that got most of the major private Japanese tech companies together to cooperate and become a leader in Chip Manufacturing.

That's exactly what I keep saying. However, I don't need we need a new ministry. Our current ministries just need to do their jobs.

 

[FuturePAF]

That's exactly what I keep saying. However, I don't need we need a new ministry. Our current ministries just need to do their jobs.

Who will make them do their jobs seems to be the question. Just like a Bloated PIA, someone has to be brave enough to take on the status quo and spend the political capital and touch the third rail of our politics.

 

[Goenitz]

Food is abundant despite the struggles of many poor who at some point or another will be fed. The mindset to innovate comes from a lack of any movement up Maslows pyramid(my favorite example). So the desires keep oscillating even up to the elite on food, shelter and sex to only climb up that pyramid in certain cases.

That is not the only reason. We lack ambitions. People after getting PhD, Sarakri Naukri, one successful shop, just stop growing, as they think they have achieved what cd be or what there forefathers couldn't. Bcz we are already at the top w.r.t our surroundings. We lack self-motivation and agitation which is vital to grow. It is more like shackling ourselves bcz of our narrow vision.

The main reason is lack of reference. If we visit conferences, meet successful people, and see how developed nation people continue professional development even in jobs, then our standard will rise and we can progress.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes I understand your concern. I can be overly negative sometimes We have to keep hope alive always of course.

For starters I would staff HEC with educationists and policy makers with experience in education and let it be independent. This will probably lead to a freeze in the construction of new university (buildings) that we seem to have a massive boner for. I would hope that this would lead to the rationalization of faculty advancement criteria so that they are less about papers submitted to paid paper mills and more about research output measured by papers in internationally recognized journals, patents, and/or business value.

I would ask SPD, PA, PAF, PN, FIA, etc to fund research through the HEC - I believe the same is done here in the US by their agencies through NSF and DARPA. This will massively increase the pie of funding available for HEC funding and will feed R&D into a sector where we actually have a half-decent industry - the military industry.

I would ask HEC to introduce an internship program - much like the coop program in Canada. This will be prone to misuses so this needs to be well thought out. You can even send people to Turkey (they have signed an MoU for Azeri student interships, I even know of some Pakistanis that have gone). These need to be paid internships. I am thinking in terms of STEM majors - I don't think I can speak for nonSTEM fields.

The only non-STEM field Pakistan needs to focus is on is professional marketing. That is all.

 

[JamD]

Who will make them do their jobs seems to be the question. Just like a Bloated PIA, someone has to be brave enough to take on the status quo and spend the political capital and touch the third rail of our politics.

Even well intentioned people cannot do their jobs because that will require them to go against the elite which are in control. So when things get SO bad that the elites start to hurt and realize they need to do right by Pakistan then these ministries will do their job. Or if things get so bad that these elites just leave. Hopefully leave enough of Pakistan that isnt totally doomed.

 

[Goenitz]

while they are different, it’s about the mindset. The got to get it done attitude Air Marshall Latif showed is what our civilian companies need.

In the 50-80s the Japanese companies had a similar mindset in become the industry leaders across many fields. They would even talk about how to outcompete industrial rivals in military terms “frontal attack” if memory serves me right.

Review: Understanding the Japanese "Economic Miracle" on JSTOR

Understanding the Japanese "Economic Miracle", The Brookings Bulletin, Vol. 13, No. 1 (Winter 1976), pp. 4-7

www.jstor.org

Instead of thinking about R&D maybe we need to adopt a Japanese practice and create our own MITI; Ministry of International Trade and Industry. A one stop government agency to guide industrial policy, fund research and direct investment. They were the ones that got most of the major private Japanese tech companies together to cooperate and become a leader in Chip Manufacturing.

I can write on it.. But see japanese culture, they look for perfection in food, agriculture, service. We are the nation of jugard. We always want short cuts. Japanese perfection and hardwork has lead them to make Katana.
Their hygiene level care can tell you why the 6-sigma theory had originated by them. Quality control.

What you say is valid, but you need a CULTURE or environment even at micro level to produce quality products, be it phone, graduates, food items etc.

See japanese mango, grapes, Koi fish, etc. Everything is expensive.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

Even well intentioned people cannot do their jobs because that will require them to go against the elite which are in control. So when things get SO bad that the elites start to hurt and realize they need to do right by Pakistan then these ministries will do their job. Or if things get so bad that these elites just leave. Hopefully leave enough of Pakistan that isnt totally doomed.

This in my opinion is the only real bottleneck holding Pakistan back. Everything else is a matter of decision making.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

I would ask HEC to introduce an internship program - much like the coop program in Canada. This will be prone to misuses so this needs to be well thought out. You can even send people to Turkey (they have signed an MoU for Azeri student interships, I even know of some Pakistanis that have gone). These need to be paid internships. I am thinking in terms of STEM majors - I don't think I can speak for nonSTEM fields.

A typical Pakistani internship is 6 weeks which is too short. I have seen pakistani students doing internships at PAC/Aselsan for 6 weeks. Compared to it, a typical german internship lasts between 6-9 months with actual back breaking work. Honestly, an internship is too small to convey any practical knowledge. I would prefer research assistant with a professor for longer timeframe (1-2 years). In US/South Korea/China, students join a lab, and publish papers over duration of the work.

Secondly, there needs to a constant keeping update to date with knowledge created worldwide. Europe is not doing any ground breaking work in microprocessors market (except lithography via ASML) but european universities and industry very much keep upto date with latest innovations. This is especially important because not every innovation would come out of an indigenous institute/organization. So there needs to be mechanism to finding an innovation, and localizing it. Vaccines, ventilators, desalinization plants are good example of it.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

A typical Pakistani internship is 6 weeks which is too short. I have seen pakistani students doing internships at PAC/Aselsan for 6 weeks. Compared to it, a typical german internship lasts between 6-9 months with actual back breaking work. Honestly, an internship is too small to convey any practical knowledge. I would prefer research assistant with a professor for longer timeframe (1-2 years). In US/South Korea/China, students join a lab, and publish papers over duration of the work.

Secondly, there needs to a constant keeping update to date with knowledge created worldwide. Europe is not doing any ground breaking work in microprocessors market (except lithography via ASML) but european universities and industry very much keep upto date with latest innovations. This is especially important because not every innovation would come out of an indigenous institute/organization. So there needs to be mechanism to finding an innovation, and localizing it. Vaccines, ventilators, desalinization plants are good example of it.

Just like ministers in civil govt., and generals in military, there needs to Research Managers who are dedicated to a certain knowledge stream (chip fabrication, engine design, water desalinization) who manage the innovations country-wide. I have seen germans talking to japanese industry leaders in heavy machinery design (Mitsubishi), and chip fabrication.

As Pakistan have limited resources, the concepts of efficiency and professionalism need to put in people minds. We as a nation suffers more from inefficiency than corruption and terrorism. The sword of accountability must swing regardless of person.

Pakistan needs to have an efficient and flexible innovation eco-system which allows opportunities to its citizens with minimum bureaucratic hurdles. IDF is one good example of being efficient. People join military as conscripts then move to technical specializations as they progress. Even when they leave IDF, they can go back to a university or open a startup. We cannot follow models of occupation/professions that were created 100 years ago.

 

[FuturePAF]

Just like ministers in civil govt., and generals in military, there needs to Research Managers who are dedicated to a certain knowledge stream (chip fabrication, engine design, water desalinization) who manage the innovations country-wide. I have seen germans talking to japanese industry leaders in heavy machinery design (Mitsubishi), and chip fabrication.

As Pakistan have limited resources, the concepts of efficiency and professionalism need to put in people minds. We as a nation suffers more from inefficiency than corruption and terrorism. The sword of accountability must swing regardless of person.

Pakistan needs to have an efficient and flexible innovation eco-system which allows opportunities to its citizens with minimum bureaucratic hurdles. IDF is one good example of being efficient. People join military as conscripts then move to technical specializations as they progress. Even when they leave IDF, they can go back to a university or open a startup. We cannot follow models of occupation/professions that were created 100 years ago.

Speaking of a 100 years ago. It was in part the inefficient and protectionism of the guilds in the Ottoman Empire that shut out innovation and over the course of 200 years led to Ottomans going from being innovative leaders to buying everything from Europeans.

Elites will do what is in their interest, and that is just what they do, it’s human nature. But a state needs to support a culture that serves the best interests of society.

If we are to do research it has to be on how to bring about this culture of service for the collective benefit. This seems to be the dividing line between competitive and non-competitive societies.

 

[peagle]

@Mangus Ortus Novem @SIPRA

thought you guys might enjoy the discussion in this thread, well some of it, ignore the naysayers lol

 

[JamD]

A typical Pakistani internship is 6 weeks which is too short. I have seen pakistani students doing internships at PAC/Aselsan for 6 weeks. Compared to it, a typical german internship lasts between 6-9 months with actual back breaking work. Honestly, an internship is too small to convey any practical knowledge. I would prefer research assistant with a professor for longer timeframe (1-2 years). In US/South Korea/China, students join a lab, and publish papers over duration of the work.

Secondly, there needs to a constant keeping update to date with knowledge created worldwide. Europe is not doing any ground breaking work in microprocessors market (except lithography via ASML) but european universities and industry very much keep upto date with latest innovations. This is especially important because not every innovation would come out of an indigenous institute/organization. So there needs to be mechanism to finding an innovation, and localizing it. Vaccines, ventilators, desalinization plants are good example of it.

The point of the internship isn't to create IP directly. The point is to give students a foot in the door of some industry. This facilitates employment. Here in the west you often end up working for whoever you intern with. And yes when I said coop like Canada I meant paid internship that lasts at least 3 months.