Ideas to improve R&D in Pakistan

[JamD]

The YOZMA program was for exactly that: a program for funding & incubating startups thereby kickstarting industry. It wasn't for R&D. You might be thinking of TALPIOT which was more R&D focused

I stand corrected.

I believe other people have suggested kickstarting industrialization this way as well. To that I say that Israel is probably the worst country to compare Pakistan to or learn lessons from - they are just on the opposite end of almost all human development indicators and "business environment" as us.

 

[Mujahid Memon]

We all agree that very little research and development is done in Pakistan, and I was thinking how we could improve that. I had a few ideas I wanted to share with you and get your thoughts.

1. Regulation - We need regulation that ties the university status of each university to research. There should not be any universities in our country not creating PHD students. There perhaps should be a percentage of the intake that should be going onto PHD studies, although this must be kept very small, we want to encourage quality not quantity.

2. Funding. Govt must be willing to fund cost of living of phD students in STEM subjects or the type of research we consider required to national interest. Students and professors should be able to put together funding requests and state why they think thier work is beneficial to society and why society should cover their cost of living.. This could also cover arts, but it will cover it in a level proportional to national requirement, not on desires of students.

3. University-industry links. I want to see this in three areas.

a. Govt should give tax refunds of 50% of any amount a business contributes to a university for research and development. So if Malik Riaz gives 10 billion pkr to a university for research, then he can expect 5 billion refunded from his taxes. There should be checks and balances to ensure this money goes into phd costs, not towards university profits, or buying land and building hostels and gyms.

b. I'd like to see industry work in collaboration with universities to do their own research. If your company wants to do research, work with university professors. The work could be part funded by you, part funded by the university, and if they can make a case for it, govt could contribute up to 20% of the cost. It'd be win win for the universities who get part funded research, the companies who get part funded research and the state who gets r&D on the cheap.

c. Employability scores for university graduates on a course by course basis. Also industry approval of courses or faculties. This would encourage universities to revise their content and keep it relevant. it would also mean students could have a better idea of the quality of the education they're paying for, because ultimately they want it to lead to employment and finally it would benefit companies because they would have graduates who are more capable of hitting the ground running.

I could do a whole other topic on employability of graduates and the future of higher education and industry, but for now this is what i want to focus on.

What do you think?

Pakistani universities are the worst scum. I bet more than 90% of the research grant will go into the pockets of fata-ss se-xist professors.

Govt should do for commercial R&D what the US govt does for defence related projects. Lets say the govt announces that they want a locally produced electric car with such and such features. Now the individuals, group of individuals, companies or group of companies should submit their proposals. After thorough evaluation without any bias (that is the most difficult part because of corruption and political affiliations) the govt should grant an interest free loan to the winning party and remove any unnecessary bureaucratic hassles.

 

[nahtanbob]

I have not ignore them, they were part of that eco-system. My point was to cover one aspect raised in a post by someone else. it wasn't a comprehensive analysis.

If we truly were to concentrate on one single point then the $200 billion plus in American, plus other aid made the biggest contribution to all developments in Israel.

Give any group in the world proper education and over $200 billion dollars in aid, with access to technology and that nation will advance itself in 50 years. that is the crux of it.

my point was merely expanding on someone else's point.

most of $200 billion is towards military spending which is not productive

you are glossing over the impact of those Soviet immigrants. It is directly responsible for the boom

 

[EternalMortal]

I stand corrected.

I believe other people have suggested kickstarting industrialization this way as well. To that I say that Israel is probably the worst country to compare Pakistan to or learn lessons from - they are just on the opposite end of almost all human development indicators and "business environment" as us.

Although in terms of percentage the education/HDI level is not high, but surely in absolute terms the number of our ppl that are educated balances it out. These things inevitably improve alongside industrial & economic development.

Business reform may not happen initially but start small & get your foot in the door. It can even be as little as 1 new entrepreneur a yr. There's room to scale it up before hitting a plateau. Once that happens, reform will be inevitable.

More ideas to promote industry:
-Set up a UBI-type system for entrepreneurs (who meet certain requirements)
-loans for those looking to start or expand business

 

[peagle]

most of $200 billion is towards military spending which is not productive

you are glossing over the impact of those Soviet immigrants. It is directly responsible for the boom

Come on yaar, let's not be intentionally blind.
Money coming into the country benefits the whole economy. If someone else is meeting your defence requirements, you are able to allocate your own funds for other things, it comes to the same thing. The budgetary allocations that would have been spent on defence, are now being spent on other things because the aid is fulfilling your requirements, its quiet simple.

That money, they also got a lot from other countries as well, that money was given to a nation of less then 5 million, that's over 1 billion dollars per 1 million people, constantly for decades. Can you imagine how impactful that kind of funding would be, you don't have to imagine, Israel is the answer.

Plus, some of that military funding was allowed to be spent on R&D. Usually foreign aid especially military aid comes with strict conditions, but not in the case of Israel. The were able to spend money on buying their own products, and R&D.

The point you raise is important but that aspect was part of the eco system, IDF culture, the aid, and new skills among the immigrant groups. No single element was the single most important contributor to the success of Israel.
But, if you had to choose one aspect, then that's the over $200 billion in aid and access to technology for a population of less then 5 million.

 

[JamD]

Although in terms of percentage the education/HDI level is not high, but surely in absolute terms the number of our ppl that are educated balances it out.

Doesn't work that way. The state is responsible for everyone not just the 0.01%. The state can't ignore 99.99% of the population. They need food they need healthcare they need education they need housing. And when your already tiny pie is divided into so many mouths very little (if anything) remains for grand visions of copying Israel.

And even in absolute terms you will struggle to compare a country like Pakistan to Israel. Compare Pakistan to India, SriLanka, Bangladesh, etc. I did a rough calculation and even in absolute terms Israel has approximatey 70% the number of undergrads as Pakistan. That is mind boggling no matter how you look at it. Look how tiny they are. And then don't even get me started on the quality of undergraduate education in Pakistan versus Israel.

It's good to aim high but you have to be realistic of your ground realities. Our planners have a habit of importing solutions from the west even though those solutions have been designed for VERY different countries. Let's not fall into that trap too.

 

[EternalMortal]

Doesn't work that way. The state is responsible for everyone not just the 0.01%. The state can't ignore 99.99% of the population. They need food they need healthcare they need education they need housing. And when your already tiny pie is divided into so many mouths very little (if anything) remains for grand visions of copying Israel.

And even in absolute terms you will struggle to compare a country like Pakistan to Israel. Compare Pakistan to India, SriLanka, Bangladesh, etc. I did a rough calculation and even in absolute terms Israel has approximatey 70% the number of undergrads as Pakistan. That is mind boggling no matter how you look at it. Look how tiny they are. And then don't even get me started on the quality of undergraduate education in Pakistan versus Israel.

It's good to aim high but you have to be realistic of your ground realities. Our planners have a habit of importing solutions from the west even though those solutions have been designed for VERY different countries. Let's not fall into that trap too.

To clarify, I'm comparing Israel of 80s-90s to Pak today. Maybe there would still be a big difference but like I said, we can start small. Also, remember you're inviting PRIVATE capital as well so the burden is not solely on the gov. The pie will get bigger as you expand. It wouldn't cost us much either if it fails. The gov wastes money on real estate schemes anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't import ideas wholesale without studying them in our contest but I don't see why we cannot emulate even a fraction of something like this. I mean providing funding & access to well-connected individuals is the most basic way of promoting entrepreneurship. Maybe the form might differ but you still need it.

 

[JamD]

To clarify, I'm comparing Israel of 80s-90s to Pak today. Maybe there would still be a big difference but like I said, we can start small. The pie will get bigger as you expand. It wouldn't cost us much either if it fails. The gov wastes money on real estate schemes anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't import ideas wholesale without studying them in our contest but I don't see why we cannot emulate even a fraction of something like this. I mean providing funding & access to well-connected individuals is the most basic way of promoting entrepreneurship. Maybe the form might differ but you still need it.

I'm not disagreeing with your intent. I am arguing you need to work on fundamentals before you try to do the fancy things. You can sink billions of dollars into attracting startups and setting up funds but if a corporate case will last more than your lifetime and you will be hounded by 30 different government agencies why the heck would you do a startup in Pakistan? The thing about improving fundamentals is that you will see unforeseen benefits that someone else here was wanting.

And you can't compare countries/solutions with different fundamentals than ours. It makes no sense.

The pie will not magically get bigger. The pie is actually getting smaller. The government's time and money is much better spent on fundamental reforms in judiciary and economics, which of course they cannot do without pissing off their benefactors. Which is why they will give the people truck ki batti's like ten billion technology park tsunami and ten billion university building tsunami that are actual burdens on the state and are unlikely to add any value.

Punchline: Entrepreneurship is not THE solution to Pakistan's problems. Maybe in 10 years when other things have been worked on entrepreneurship can act like a force multiplier. But in the absence of the most basic of things entrepreneurship will not take root. Entrepreneurship is like turbocharger. If you don't have an engine you cannot put that turbocharger anywhere. Entrepreneurship is not a fundamental feature that begets better economic policies or improved rule of law.

 

[EternalMortal]

I'm not disagreeing with your intent. I am arguing you need to work on fundamentals before you try to do the fancy things. You can sink billions of dollars into attracting startups and setting up funds but if a corporate case will last more than your lifetime and you will be hounded by 30 different government agencies why the heck would you do a startup in Pakistan? The thing about improving fundamentals is that you will see unforeseen benefits that someone else here was wanting.

And you can't compare countries/solutions with different fundamentals than ours. It makes no sense.

The pie will not magically get bigger. The pie is actually getting smaller. The government's time and money is much better spent on fundamental reforms in judiciary and economics, which of course they cannot do without pissing off their benefactors. Which is why they will give the people truck ki batti's like ten billion technology park tsunami and ten billion university building tsunami that are actual burdens on the state and are unlikely to add any value.

Punchline: Entrepreneurship is not THE solution to Pakistan's problems. Maybe in 10 years when other things have been worked on entrepreneurship can act like a force multiplier. But in the absence of the most basic of things entrepreneurship will not take root. Entrepreneurship is like turbocharger. If you don't have an engine you cannot put that turbocharger anywhere. Entrepreneurship is not a fundamental feature that begets better economic policies or improved rule of law.

I agree with you. However, for now I'm operating under the assumption that business environment will improve. Otherwise, for me, there's no point in engaging in these hypotheticals & brainstorming ideas.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

most of $200 billion is towards military spending which is not productive

Internet started as ARPANET. I have seen northrup grumman code open-spurced in to a popular network-packet capturing tool called wireshark. Innovation is a pendulum. It keeps swinging.
Nowadays, AI tech is flowing from cilvil to military.
BTW, israelis always sell this choorun that their idf is so innovative that it created super successful companies in silicon valley.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

India to create a pool of 85,000 high-skilled engineers under chips to startups

India to create a pool of 85,000 high-skilled engineers under chips to startups

The chips to startups ecosystem will ready 85,000 engineers that will help India achieve its ambition of becoming a semiconductor powerhouse.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[Al_Muhannad]

Localization of knowledge through the times.
Example Agriculture.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I'm not disagreeing with your intent. I am arguing you need to work on fundamentals before you try to do the fancy things. You can sink billions of dollars into attracting startups and setting up funds but if a corporate case will last more than your lifetime and you will be hounded by 30 different government agencies why the heck would you do a startup in Pakistan? The thing about improving fundamentals is that you will see unforeseen benefits that someone else here was wanting.

And you can't compare countries/solutions with different fundamentals than ours. It makes no sense.

The pie will not magically get bigger. The pie is actually getting smaller. The government's time and money is much better spent on fundamental reforms in judiciary and economics, which of course they cannot do without pissing off their benefactors. Which is why they will give the people truck ki batti's like ten billion technology park tsunami and ten billion university building tsunami that are actual burdens on the state and are unlikely to add any value.

Punchline: Entrepreneurship is not THE solution to Pakistan's problems. Maybe in 10 years when other things have been worked on entrepreneurship can act like a force multiplier. But in the absence of the most basic of things entrepreneurship will not take root. Entrepreneurship is like turbocharger. If you don't have an engine you cannot put that turbocharger anywhere. Entrepreneurship is not a fundamental feature that begets better economic policies or improved rule of law.

The fundamental challenge is that the real solution requires exerting a lot of control over the base governing system. We can't work around that elephant (e.g., no entrepreneurship if the legal system isn't fair and efficient). Unfortunately, unless we cancel out the blockers (political parties, corrupt bureaucrats, overbearing generals, etc), we are not going to have real change whatsoever. Yes, we need bottom-up initiative, but we won't get it (or leverage it properly) if the top doesn't build the right environment (via education, healthcare, relevant infrastructure, law and order, anti-corruption measures, foreign policy aimed at opening export markets, etc). It's a two-way street.

Sadly, our society is largely out of position to change the top. It sounds great in theory, but the bad actors can (and likely have) safeguarded themselves by quickly painting outside voices as destabilizing, treacherous, etc. This will create more friction in society and, in turn, actual instability and problems. Best case scenario, these guys will just tell change-voices to bugger off. Worst case scenario, innocent people could disappear. So, we even have blockers to the work necessary to remove the technical blockers.

IMO ... things won't change until the generals, politicians, judges, etc themselves wake up. They're the only catalysts to real change here. No one else. If they don't clean house in earnest (at the top among themselves), then Pakistan will continue going down its current path. This 'top down' change can happen. We have voices like Lt. Gen (ret'd) Tariq Khan, for example, and we have individuals from across all of the political parties who, in their hearts, know what's happening is bad and desire real change. The question is, what will trigger all of these people to mobilize and act? Only God knows...

 

[Al_Muhannad]

The fundamental challenge is that the real solution requires exerting a lot of control over the base governing system. We can't work around that elephant (e.g., no entrepreneurship if the legal system isn't fair and efficient). Unfortunately, unless we cancel out the blockers (political parties, corrupt bureaucrats, overbearing generals, etc), we are not going to have real change whatsoever. Yes, we need bottom-up initiative, but we won't get it (or leverage it properly) if the top doesn't build the right environment (via education, healthcare, relevant infrastructure, law and order, anti-corruption measures, foreign policy aimed at opening export markets, etc). It's a two-way street.

Sadly, our society is largely out of position to change the top. It sounds great in theory, but the bad actors can (and likely have) safeguarded themselves by quickly painting outside voices as destabilizing, treacherous, etc. This will create more friction in society and, in turn, actual instability and problems. Best case scenario, these guys will just tell change-voices to bugger off. Worst case scenario, innocent people could disappear. So, we even have blockers to the work necessary to remove the technical blockers.

IMO ... things won't change until the generals, politicians, judges, etc themselves wake up. They're the only catalysts to real change here. No one else. If they don't clean house in earnest (at the top among themselves), then Pakistan will continue going down its current path. This 'top down' change can happen. We have voices like Lt. Gen (ret'd) Tariq Khan, for example, and we have individuals from across all of the political parties who, in their hearts, know what's happening is bad and desire real change. The question is, what will trigger all of these people to mobilize and act? Only God knows...

Very good points laid out by Bilal. But, our deen does not allow us to Na-Ummed.

Having said that, I look at this problem like a target optimization strategy. What set of tasks have to be done to trigger a domino effect? Of course, a major political change would jolt the upper layer into place. But here I think as average citizen. Here are some points that I think we can utilize.

(Details are intentionally skipped as this post being public and topic being of NatSec nature. But think like a general/research manager of target optimization in a highly dynamic situation and think quite into future [20-100 years].)
1-Get majority of graduates abroad and getting them research/industrial experience. Think of it as like this: I do not have enough capacity to run a functional system, but that guy does (abroad). How do I get to use that system and make a win-win situation? FB group Scholarship Network created a major impact in this regard.
2-Reconstruction of Scientific Thought: Allama Iqbal published a work on "Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam". We cannot have scientists if they do not speak a language and transfer their knowledge through a high capacity language. German has a dialect "Technical Deutsch". Guess what Urdu has to do.
3-Conservation of Knowledge: Create a system of libraries where results of research work are available readily. Scandinavian countries have their public portals where PhD/MS theses can be downloaded freely. Of course, confidential stuff is censured or not published at all. But you get the point. NASA & ESA has been open-sourcing their work to public or to limited technical organization to transfer know-how.
4-Create a Computer Industry: I do not like PMLN at all but Hazrat Musa (AH) survived in firaun's house. MNS created a publicity stunt by giving laptops (with piss-poor quality). We need to create a laptop brand. To be successful, it needs to sell laptops to govt, who give every student a free laptop/or high subsidized. Netherlands does it like that. There are three models 1-Laptops for Typing/Movies 2-Laptops for Engineering with good specifications, and 3-Laptops for Engineering with Excellent Max-Pro-Plus specifications. Furthermore, PCB/electronics building capacity of Strategic organizations can be used to publish local boards like Raspberry Pi/beagle boards which can be build locally and REPAIRED locally.
5-Re-Invention of the Paper: Every time has its own paper which forms the backbone of knowledge based economy. I am not talking about A4 papers which are derived from plants. But paper of the 21st/22nd century.

I skipped a lot of points. Let me know what targets you can think of.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Very good points laid out by Bilal. But, our deen does not allow us to Na-Ummed.

Having said that, I look at this problem like a target optimization strategy. What set of tasks have to be done to trigger a domino effect? Of course, a major political change would jolt the upper layer into place. But here I think as average citizen. Here are some points that I think we can utilize.

(Details are intentionally skipped as this post being public and topic being of NatSec nature. But think like a general/research manager of target optimization in a highly dynamic situation and think quite into future [20-100 years].)
1-Get majority of graduates abroad and getting them research/industrial experience. Think of it as like this: I do not have enough capacity to run a functional system, but that guy does (abroad). How do I get to use that system and make a win-win situation? FB group Scholarship Network created a major impact in this regard.
2-Reconstruction of Scientific Thought: Allama Iqbal published a work on "Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam". We cannot have scientists if they do not speak a language and transfer their knowledge through a high capacity language. German has a dialect "Technical Deutsch". Guess what Urdu has to do.
3-Conservation of Knowledge: Create a system of libraries where results of research work are available readily. Scandinavian countries have their public portals where PhD/MS theses can be downloaded freely. Of course, confidential stuff is censured or not published at all. But you get the point. NASA & ESA has been open-sourcing their work to public or to limited technical organization to transfer know-how.
4-Create a Computer Industry: I do not like PMLN at all but Hazrat Musa (AH) survived in firaun's house. MNS created a publicity stunt by giving laptops (with piss-poor quality). We need to create a laptop brand. To be successful, it needs to sell laptops to govt, who give every student a free laptop/or high subsidized. Netherlands does it like that. There are three models 1-Laptops for Typing/Movies 2-Laptops for Engineering with good specifications, and 3-Laptops for Engineering with Excellent Max-Pro-Plus specifications. Furthermore, PCB/electronics building capacity of Strategic organizations can be used to publish local boards like Raspberry Pi/beagle boards which can be build locally and REPAIRED locally.
5-Re-Invention of the Paper: Every time has its own paper which forms the backbone of knowledge based economy. I am not talking about A4 papers which are derived from plants. But paper of the 21st/22nd century.

I skipped a lot of points. Let me know what targets you can think of.

Yes, we should be optimistic, but our deen also shows us how societies develop for both the better and the worst.

In terms of the best, we know of the Ansar in Madina. Following the Battle of Bu'ath, both the Aus and Khazraj leaderships saw that their present course was untenable. So they strived for something better. They respected the tradition of the Yahuud and took their prophetic claims seriously. So, when some of them came across Rasul'Allah (saw), they basically saw a future in him (saw) and in Islam. That society changed, and in doing so formed the nucleus of our history.

Society will not change until the leadership itself changes how it thinks. I'm not talking about revolution. Rather, I'm talking about people who take their mental space from the status-quo to something that demands ambition, sincerity and vision. Islam requires the individual and collective alike to shift their mental state. Unless our leaders shift their mental state, we will not change. Allah (swt) has shown in Seerah that without mental shift, societies do not change unless someone from outside forces them to change (e.g., Fateh Makkah by Madina).

So, in response to everything you said, it won't land unless our leaders want that stuff to land. If our leaders are not interested in change, then we'll stay in the status-quo. We can just look at the reality and see it play out. Right now, the leaders don't want change, and lo and behold, our society is suffering.

I don't know, maybe the global real estate market needs to crash for our society to wake up. Maybe if the value of those apartments in London and Dubai evaporate, our leaders will have an Ansar-like epiphany and decide to focus on building an active economy.