Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

[Joe Shearer]

But this doesn't mean we have to just forget what happened in the past(at least those people who have retained the faith).

And THAT is where the problem is.

How can we deal rationally with a situation where we have this weighing heavily on our minds? All the time?

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Ha ha ha...it's not about temple destruction, it's about our remembering temple destruction and forming our views about Muslims.

Didn't you just do exactly that?

I clearly mentioned that you should forgive, but not forget. How is posting a link which goes contrary to what the writer in the article mentioned bad?

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

How can we deal rationally with a situation where we have this weighing heavily on our minds? All the time?

But that's the advice you gave me when you referred to Maratha attacks on Bengal. You said you'll forgive those events but will never forget. I'm just following your advice.
Or were you trying to just be politically correct seeing the forum that we're in?

I'm not blaming Indian Muslims for what happened in the past of course.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

@Joe Shearer Anyway ciao. Will talk later.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri Sahib, Aap to chhaa gayen!

This article was truly written very well and struck close to home and heart in lot of ways. The author is to be credited highly.

My own father has all manner of unyielding stubbornness on certain issues with certain groups (some are minorities, others are majorities)...and labeling and tarring them all at same time while he does it.

It always crushes me each time when he says something very unfair and then dismisses my protests and counters in the way fathers know all too well....like only Seti could with Moses when the latter is brought to him in chains (by a certain movie's take on it).

Moses preaching the evils of the great oppression of his Hebrew people he only recently found he was one of....and Seti ultimately responds "he who ate of my bread....and called me father....would make rebellion against me!".

So you see...I see his flaws (esp as he has aged and so have I..and the greatest points of contention are sorely apparent).

I do speak up about them when I can, in the way I best know how (often going back to first principles) but I am resigned to him not changing on certain matters....but I also see the first principles approach is really the best way as it has eked out silent compromise and quiet respect between me and him in lot of areas.

He is a product of that window I speak of, his elders saw worse times and the promised redemption of all of that did not go to desired speed in his youth and life around him in his beloved motherland....

...but he is a kind soul (much of him is also what you see here in me, it must not be dismissed) and I do hold him higher than any man I know.

He is full of some great contradictions (that even he remarks upon from time to time) past the steely and sometimes haughty Iyer exterior. I wont forget when he saw all the Malays in Singapore when we moved there, their women on the whole always dutifully wearing the "Tudung" as needed by their faith. Having become quite jaded with way TN and urban India at large was being fast changed back home by what he sees as foul foreign influences...he always tended to remark: "These are good, honourable, modest women! I respect the Muslim faith immensely for this. We Hindus must learn from this".

I sometimes quote this back at him when he gets lippy about Muslims on other matters i.e him seeing in Singapore a modern, prosperous urban setting for a cultural expression that did not bend too much to the modernity...and how that was achieved by a minority he admonishes at other times for other reasons. But even Hindus do not escape his criticism it must be said....that is an example I feel of the deeper quality that comes into play when you can introspect logically along the same issue you hold for other groups...and I can only hope it has also impressed and grown in me.

We are all complex, flawed beings. The deepest ultimate understanding is none other than this and the greatest counterforce is thus naturally the ego. But both are needed in some proportion for balanced living and happiness. As many people as possible having the right tools to analyse this would thus be my larger prescription to the problems of society and mankind.

Very apt, Sir. However, it is a bit difficult to connect to the latent Islamophobia that is being mentioned (the lady is obviously a Paappan). While what you suggest will reaffirm the deep faith in ancient culture that is the best antidote to what you have called a 'loss of self-esteem', we need to know that this counter-acting of the loss of self-esteem will also counter-act the Islamophobia. Does it follow, or does it need to be curated?

Read the above for context.

It needs well reasoned and applied curation I feel (as a default for the citizenry)....as I had more of this than my dad...and even he admits I am more well-reasoned (at least in functional practice) than him on lot of matters of society (especially how society changes so fast these days but certain things stay the same resolutely for better or for worse). So I feel I speak and intuit this stuff from some level of personal experience.

Our lives are quite finite, our interest (on certain important matters) is also quite finite on the whole....especially to the downstream action and larger application of it. Our formative window is especially finite.

The whole conversation changes if these were infinite, but then the whole reality changes too.

We must plant the seed correctly, it must be tended correctly and the fruit harvested well...and prepared and eaten well.

The opposite is given by Lord Byron quite well:

“The thorns which I have reap'd are of the tree. I planted; they have torn me, and I bleed. I should have known what fruit would spring from such a seed.”

Quite eloquently referenced in the metallica song (if anyone is into that kind of music like I am) "Bleeding me".

So we do all generally realise these things are finite in nature, though the cyclical process as a whole outlasts us...and may indeed be seemingly infinite....and thus something of a greater meaning/purpose if we see it that way.

This is why education must be well rounded but specifically have insertion points for well reasoned debate (and contrasts offered for maximum resolution)....which must be a good part of your formative years.

This is the opposite of rote learning (which played larger role in my dad's education and formative years, though he had a rare natural innate knack to question and counter it and thus he achieved quite a lot among his peers).

Rote learning is very inept to the "fall as it may" stuff that inevitably happens later. Life doesn't throw you perfect rote-based stuff...not even close...so the very psychology of being reliant on rote (and lashing out a world far more different to that) is a big issue I see at play in India too. It has such a great cultural inheritance but stubbornly and almost clownishly chooses not to see it well enough....with the focused clarity it requires.

It is thus a nuanced understanding for promotion of this kind of debate culture that can also be read about in the ancient history of India...and hopefully impressed on a larger body of people (as an example of what I am referencing in a larger way)...harnessing an existing positive corollary made to that civilisation....if approached with the right mind-frame and curation as you put it.

I see the problems very much with "reaffirmation" left to own inertial energies (and thus filters and biases), especially now with this direction at play we have had and have in the modern era.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer Anyway ciao. Will talk later.

Sorry, I was on an important phone call.

Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

I clearly mentioned that you should forgive, but not forget. How is posting a link which goes contrary to what the writer in the article mentioned bad?

But that's the advice you gave me when you referred to Maratha attacks on Bengal. You said you'll forgive those events but will never forget. I'm just following your advice.
Or were you trying to just be politically correct seeing the forum that we're in?

I'm not blaming Indian Muslims for what happened in the past of course.

This article opened my eyes to a lot of things. It changed my outlook.

That is exactly why I posted it here. We cannot say forgive and then keep bringing it up at every opportunity, saying that we have forgiven but have not forgotten. That is really not so; we say to ourselves that we have forgiven, when we actually have it in our hearts all the time, and we actually build our resentment and anger on it.

 

[KhanBaba2]

This is where the problem starts . This denial . Till the day you so called liberals don't approach the barbaric muslim invasions with honesty , educate everyone including the muslims about it , There will be a political hindu movement .

The denial was not created by the liberals. It predates the independence of India. It was an acceptance of history by the public that structure throughout history have been created and destroyed by those in power.

There is no end to the raking up of historical injustices. Today it is the Muslims. Tomorrow it will be the Vaishnav against the Shaivite. There are historical injustices there too. Are you ready for those to be raked up.

 

[IsThisNameAvailable]

I am new user of PDF. An Indian & Hindu. I hope to contribute & learn.

Some "historian" here is trying to get into nitti gritties of whether or not there was a Temple below Babri? Whether it was something other than a Temple? Whether it existed when Babri was constructed? Whether it was demolished only for the purpose of building a Mosque or was it "natural selection" which pushed it into into the ruins? Blah Blah Blah....

This historian should first learn to become an average human who respects others' belief before trying to become anything else.

If anyone asks Christians to prove that Christ was born at such & such place or to Muslims to prove that Mohammed was born at such & such place, the Hindu inside me would tell that person that he/she should respect belief of Christians or Muslims and not question it by asking proof of everything.

Forget this historian, is there a Muslim here who can reciprocate and have similar thought about THAT PARTICULAR PLACE BEING THE BIRTH PLACE OF LORD RAM? Simply because the Hindu inside me believes so?

Anyone? Just one? A few would be great!! I am 100% sure it cannot be more than a FEW.

 

[Nilgiri]

This article opened my eyes to a lot of things. It changed my outlook.

Im glad it did. I hope this kind of message permeates....it is quite deep stuff. Remember what I said about political vs apolitical? Here is an excellent example on how to go trench depths to the real (apolitical) matter of the issue....well past the political headwinds and bickering that are really churn, surf and frothing at the surface....that the blue-meanie politics prefers you to be at...so you may play their game on their terms.

Energy expended at this top most layer is ultimately futile....even counterproductive (given the dominant innate reactionary psyche of the human species).

Get in your yellow submarine and plumb the depths!...get others to do the same! Tell us what you see and tell us well. The greatest changes and enlightenment wrought over time are ones that answer these most deepest things. They also take the longest time and longest effort of many many lives over time...but the final results are actually of consequence and worth.

 

[ps3linux]

Dear @Joe Shearer , @Nilgiri interesting scholarly thread (at least that's what I guess the intention was) in my spare time I ponder about "if" a big "if" one believes the teachings of all major religions mankind originated from one couple only. Basically what could be deduced is that all human beings are related in one way or the the other.

One begs to ponder why discrimination, why a sense of superiority by one group over the other because of caste, creed, color, language, area, religion, appearance, wealth the list goes on and on. How did this idea of false superiority came about in human beings. While all my research on the topic led to Cain and Abel, but that was primarily based upon envy, hatred, greed.

I have theorized that human beings have inbuilt desire to be different, to be above other, to claim superiority. After reading Karen Armstrong's books like "History of God" one comes to the conclusion that while humans have been killing each other for various reason over their entire darned history, its been the religious community of any known religion which must be crowned as the scum of humanity, because it is them who have been responsible for most of human sufferings the superiority claim of one deity over the other, then they rallied their followers and enjoyed the destruction of other human beings. Strange all in the name of their respective deity.

Any religion consists of Beliefs, rituals, practices and subsequent additions by one religious figure or the other. unfortunately the last ones are the major problem goes for all religions, common people have assigned the duty of reading the religious scripture to a group of people who read it, translate it and then interpret it. This is the major issue here.

While a common man, the liberals as the article wants to use the term cannot absolve himself from being an accomplice to the mentioned people in spreading discrimination, hatred and then actions, actions which are against the very principles of humanity, remember every religion first emphasizes humanity but who actually has been the villain all along? Who should but doesn't motivate their followers to be forward looking instead of looking in the past for ghosts and demons.

Unfortunately, when politics or power hungry politicians use mentioned tools for power grab it becomes dangerous, very very dangerous. They can change the perspective of entire nation, so unfortunate and they can undo the decades of labors for nation building in just a few years. Sad!

Its not that I am speaking from some historic or moral high grounds, we have our own demons, our own ghosts, our own prejudices to fight, although from the very brink of destruction we as a nation/as a country have come out of those dreams of grandeur, delusion you may call. We are not completely out of it but as a society we have started to evolve if someone speaks that in response to babri Mosque people here desecrated samadhi of Sir Ganga Ram, except for the same problematic people, we in general look down on such bigots.

Once collective wisdom of a country a nation awakens well that's when they start integrating with rest of the humanity, if french/germans/brits/polish and many other could peacefully coexist look beyond past demons why cant we? In my opinion your people do require a common rally point, some common grounds from where you can move forward. I don't know how wide spread or deeply rooted RSS/Vishwa philosophy among common Indians is, if it is or if it is spreading faster than the other narrative; it becomes a matter of concern for me as a parent what world would I be leaving for my children?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Nilgiri
@ps3linux

I am so glad that you 'got' the article; when I read it, it hit me like a bolt of lightning.

Both your posts demand undivided attention and a great deal of rumination. Please give me time to think about them. And please permit me to invite others into this discussion as well.

@saiyan0321
@meghdut
@itsanufy
@DalalErMaNodi
@Bilal9
@Sher Shah Awan
@sms

 

[Nilgiri]

Dear @Joe Shearer , @Nilgiri interesting scholarly thread (at least that's what I guess the intention was) in my spare time I ponder about "if" a big "if" one believes the teachings of all major religions mankind originated from one couple only. Basically what could be deduced is that all human beings are related in one way or the the other.

One begs to ponder why discrimination, why a sense of superiority by one group over the other because of caste, creed, color, language, area, religion, appearance, wealth the list goes on and on. How did this idea of false superiority came about in human beings. While all my research on the topic led to Cain and Abel, but that was primarily based upon envy, hatred, greed.

I have theorized that human beings have inbuilt desire to be different, to be above other, to claim superiority. After reading Karen Armstrong's books like "History of God" one comes to the conclusion that while humans have been killing each other for various reason over their entire darned history, its been the religious community of any known religion which must be crowned as the scum of humanity, because it is them who have been responsible for most of human sufferings the superiority claim of one deity over the other, then they rallied their followers and enjoyed the destruction of other human beings. Strange all in the name of their respective deity.

Any religion consists of Beliefs, rituals, practices and subsequent additions by one religious figure or the other. unfortunately the last ones are the major problem goes for all religions, common people have assigned the duty of reading the religious scripture to a group of people who read it, translate it and then interpret it. This is the major issue here.

While a common man, the liberals as the article wants to use the term cannot absolve himself from being an accomplice to the mentioned people in spreading discrimination, hatred and then actions, actions which are against the very principles of humanity, remember every religion first emphasizes humanity but who actually has been the villain all along? Who should but doesn't motivate their followers to be forward looking instead of looking in the past for ghosts and demons.

Unfortunately, when politics or power hungry politicians use mentioned tools for power grab it becomes dangerous, very very dangerous. They can change the perspective of entire nation, so unfortunate and they can undo the decades of labors for nation building in just a few years. Sad!

Its not that I am speaking from some historic or moral high grounds, we have our own demons, our own ghosts, our own prejudices to fight, although from the very brink of destruction we as a nation/as a country have come out of those dreams of grandeur, delusion you may call. We are not completely out of it but as a society we have started to evolve if someone speaks that in response to babri Mosque people here desecrated samadhi of Sir Ganga Ram, except for the same problematic people, we in general look down on such bigots.

Once collective wisdom of a country a nation awakens well that's when they start integrating with rest of the humanity, if french/germans/brits/polish and many other could peacefully coexist look beyond past demons why cant we? In my opinion your people do require a common rally point, some common grounds from where you can move forward. I don't know how wide spread or deeply rooted RSS/Vishwa philosophy among common Indians is, if it is or if it is spreading faster than the other narrative; it becomes a matter of concern for me as a parent what world would I be leaving for my children?

I will have to get to this most excellent post a bit later. I am sure other members can have at it till I'm back.

Glad to see you around in the forum btw....was missing a lot of your excellent interaction.

 

[meghdut]

@Nilgiri
@ps3linux

I am so glad that you 'got' the article; when I read it, it hit me like a bolt of lightning.

Both your posts demand undivided attention and a great deal of rumination. Please give me time to think about them. And please permit me to invite others into this discussion as well.

@saiyan0321
@meghdut
@itsanufy
@DalalErMaNodi
@Bilal9
@Sher Shah Awan
@sms

Our issues go much deeper. It was never really about this temple or that mosque as this article states and it’s correct. But how do we resolve it? How do we reconcile with the past without causing widespread hatred and violence between ourselves? Such moral conundrums occur in all nations life. What bothers me most that this is not going to resolve without much suffering and God forbid bloodshed. The lessons if history is not very optimistic.

 

[Pappa Alpha]

its been the religious community of any known religion which must be crowned as the scum of humanity

That is an exaggeration.

"Territorial issues" are the only ones that have been among the dominant issues in each of the periods [1648-1714, 1715-1814, 1815-1914, 1914-41, and 1945-89]. In four of the five periods, more wars have involved territorial issues than any other kind of issue, exceeded only in 1815-1914 by the "maintain the integrity of state/empire" issue, which is an issue obviously related to territorial concerns.

Vasquez, John A. The War Puzzle Revisited. Cambridge University Press, 2009.

Even for previous eras religion was used as an excuse for those who wanted war. The fundamental reasons for most conflicts in history were nonreligious.

"Fundamentally speaking, wars are nearly always driven by some kind of self-interest. Land, historically near synonymous with wealth, was of prime interest to most polities. Consequently - without discounting the genuine effects faith may have on true believers - religious (as well as ideological, nationalistic, etc) reasons are just as likely a source of legitimacy for using force, as it is a motivation in and of itself."

Even if there were no religions, people would have found a way to legitimize wars.

 

[Fireurimagination]

Firstly there is no one idea of India. The pendulum swings from Akhand Hindu Rashtra to Islamic Republic of India to Christian state and what not all. The burden of secularism doesn't have to that of Hindus alone when all other religions are non-secular to the core. Nobody is claiming 2000 odd temples now but yes 3 as they are very prominent, but yes it's plain foolish to forget or not-acknowledge facts or history like libtards do.