ICJ hearing on Kulbhushan Jadhav case : News, Updates & Discussions

[Icarus]

What is to stop Pakistan from not Kidnapping an Indian from Afghanistan and framing him for terrorism and putting him to death ?

The simple logistical and security challenges involved, especially when ventured against the minimal returns that any such attempt would present.

Imagine if a Pakistani was arrested in India and charged with terrorism

If he was a Pakistani military officer who was in the country on a fake passport and without a valid visa. I'm sure he was asking for it.

 

[Star Wars]

If he was a Pakistani military officer who was in the country on a fake passport and without a valid visa. I'm sure he was asking for it.

Assuming he was not kidnapped from Nepal or Afghanistan and then brought to India, animosities between our countries have increased to such an extent that anything is possible right now.

 

[Logicaldude]

@Icarus since you brought up the passport, and since we have had no chance to ask him ourselves, under what circumstances do you see an Indian senior spy entering Pakistan illegally while carrying an Indian passport (fake or otherwise, but Indian?)?

Sorry for seeking conjecture. But see we don't know anything else, and someone is about to die. It's fair to ask.

 

[lightoftruth]

If pakistan consider ICJ has no jurisdiction in the matter why cant they hang him ?

What is pakistan waiting for ?

Infact if after ICJ's verdict pakistan kills him
It shows
It has no regard for ICJ
Military has the last word.
Civilian courts in pak are a sham.

Besides that it sets a precedent for India for any case in ICJ.

 

[Shamayl]

http://www.firstpost.com/india/kulb...on-why-india-will-lose-this-case-3448210.html

 

[Icarus]

@Icarus since you brought up the passport, and since we have had no chance to ask him ourselves, under what circumstances do you see an Indian senior spy entering Pakistan illegally while carrying an Indian passport (fake or otherwise, but Indian?).

The Iranians have strict border control measures, their forces are facing attacks from the likes of Jundulah and Jaish-al-Adl in addition to widespread smuggling along the Pakistan-Iran Border. For them, if you are caught crossing the border and can't produce valid ID, you'll be assumed to be a smuggler or a militant and probably be shot on sight.
Which is why, as per my understanding, Jhadav would cross an unfenced portion of the desert border between the times that patrols would have passed. He would be received by a guide on the opposite side, and Jhadav's passport would be stowed away within a small rock formation nearby. On his return, he would take the passport and cross back into Iran. It is said that it was actually his guide that was picked up first and it was he who spilled everything on Jhadav and on his next crossing, had him caught and handed over.

 

[Ajaxpaul]

Sir for your last contention about India wanting the man back, you are missing the finer point that Indias demand for scrapping his trial are based purely on the argument that correct process has not been followed. So correct process including consular access remains the crux of our argument. This must not be viewed as a character certificate.

I think India presented the case with Human rights angle where ICJ can have jurisdiction.Not providing him legal access comes under human rights violation , i could be wrong also.

Of course, evidence might prove KBY may be engaged in criminal activity. But with good legal team, death sentence can be downgraded into life imprisonment, ultimately saving the man from death.

 

[Logicaldude]

The Iranians have strict border control measures, their forces are facing attacks from the likes of Jundulah and Jaish-al-Adl in addition to widespread smuggling along the Pakistan-Iran Border. For them, if you are caught crossing the border and can't produce valid ID, you'll be assumed to be a smuggler or a militant and probably be shot on sight.
Which is why, as per my understanding, Jhadav would cross an unfenced portion of the desert border between the times that patrols would have passed. He would be received by a guide on the opposite side, and Jhadav's passport would be stowed away within a small rock formation nearby. On his return, he would take the passport and cross back into Iran. It is said that it was actually his guide that was picked up first and it was he who spilled everything on Jhadav and on his next crossing, had him caught and handed over.

Plausible.

Or he entered posing as a double agent and carried credentials (too much Hollywood)

Or he was careless (too Indian)

Or he was picked from somewhere else (my rock hard stance on PDF only)

Anyway sincere thanks for actually understanding my POV and in the process making me understand your POV better. Otherwise all I have got here is "hang the monkey " chants

You have a great day ahead.

 

[The Eagle]

If pakistan consider ICJ has no jurisdiction in the matter why cant they hang him ?

What is pakistan waiting for ?

Infact if after ICJ's verdict pakistan kills him
It shows
It has no regard for ICJ
Military has the last word.
Civilian courts in pak are a sham.

Besides that it sets a precedent for India for any case in ICJ.

Does India have any regard as such for ICJ?

Rest about your comments and reservation about Civilian Courts on behalf of ICJ, yet not proven, are nothing. First point in this case is, either ICJ has jurisdiction or not and then comes the rest of claims made by India. Court does not rely upon emotional speeches and diplomatic rants but it is more about Law & Proceedings. Can't comment w.r.t. outcome in this case that the verdict has to come but one thing for sure, India has to prove the relevance of ICJ in this case while the facts and references of India itself about the same Court.

 

[Icarus]

Plausible.

Or he entered posing as a double agent and carried credentials (too much Hollywood)

Or he was careless (too Indian)

Or he was picked from somewhere else (my rock hard stance on PDF only)

Anyway sincere thanks for actually understanding my POV and in the process making me understand your POV better. Otherwise all I have got here is "hang the monkey " chants

You have a great day ahead.

He was neither complacent nor was he too confident, as far as performing his duties goes, he was doing his job well and would have gotten away with it. There are two popular takes on how he was compromised on the Indian side as well, the first being, as I have stated that his guide was picked up along with Baloch militants and gave Jhadav up. The second theory claims that he was actually reported by some civilians for talking in Marathi over the phone, though I personally feel the first is likelier.

As ever, it was an absolute pleasure having this discussion with you. It is becoming increasingly rare to actually engage in a conversation with someone with an opposing point of view. Makes for a very welcome change to the norm.

 

[Rafael]

If pakistan consider ICJ has no jurisdiction in the matter why cant they hang him ?

What is pakistan waiting for ?

Infact if after ICJ's verdict pakistan kills him
It shows
It has no regard for ICJ
Military has the last word.
Civilian courts in pak are a sham.

Besides that it sets a precedent for India for any case in ICJ.

Pakistani constitution gives him rights to appeal, twice. If both are rejected, he will be hanged. Its a 6 month procedure.

 

[MM_Haider]

Exactly. Pakistan denied consular access.

Do you people even understand the difference between consular access and hostage taking for demands? Apparently not.

Now I am very happy we made this high profile. Pakistans pariah behaviour is getting exposed.

first tell me which convention/ agreement/ charter states that consular access to be granted to terrorist? Do really understand the Vienna Convention article 36? It does NOT mention consular access to terrorists. Even then Pakistan offered to give such assistance as necessary provided India cooperates in investigation. Below is summary of Pakistani arguments for further insight.

1) Vienna Convention provisions on consular access were not intended for a "spy" involved in terror activities.

2) India's application on Jadhav must be dismissed on three counts - there is no agency, relief sought is manifestly unavailable and the jurisdiction is limited.

3) India's application on Kulbhushan Jadhav is unnecessary and misconceived.

4) India hasn't been able to prove that Jadhav is an Indian national or he is not a terrorist.

5) India has not been able to give an explanation for Jadhav's passport which bears a Muslim name.

6) Jadhav was given a fair trial and nothing can be further from truth.

7) India's allegation that Jadhav was kidnapped from Iran is far-fetched.

8) India was using the court as the "scene of political theatre" but "we will not respond in kind".

9) There has been deafening silence and no response from India on Pakistan's accusations on Jadhav.

10) ICJ is not a criminal court of appeal nor does it exercise criminal jurisdiction.

 

[lightoftruth]

Does India have any regard as such for ICJ?

Rest about your comments and reservation about Civilian Courts on behalf of ICJ, yet not proven, are nothing. First point in this case is, either ICJ has jurisdiction or not and then comes the rest of claims made by India. Court does not rely upon emotional speeches and diplomatic rants but it is more about Law & Proceedings. Can't comment w.r.t. outcome in this case that the verdict has to come but one thing for sure, India has to prove the relevance of ICJ in this case while the facts and references of India itself about the same Court.

Exactly the court relies on laws and proceedings ,does ICJ accepts the proceedings of your military court ?
Has that court proven without doubt that he is involved in spying activities responsible for killings in pakistan justifying death penalty ?
Can a person without consullar access without a defence be pronounced guilty ?

 

[hacker J]

This is what happens, first all of them come on the forum do heart pumping and u can see 40 pages in two days, now when they realise that actually the situation is a bit critical and they might loose. We you can see its hardly 4 pages

Pakistan states that we offered counselor service and it was rejected by india.
india refused to accept his status
FYI, Pakistan was not given access the ajmal ksab too

hahahahaha cum on yar kasab was caught with a ak 47 firing and killing people, you think any country needs more than that to not give u access. He was lucky to npot to b killed on spot and anyways why do u needed the access? to tell him GOOD JOB ?
Jadhavs case is completely different, next wud suggest to caught a spy and present guns, shells, missiles that he was carrying and then kill him in self defence next day without even going to court

 

[soundHound]

Pakistan states that we offered counselor service and it was rejected by india.
india refused to accept his status
FYI, Pakistan was not given access the ajmal ksab too

1. KJ, his arrest from day 1 is shrouded in mystery, let alone India, even citizens of Pakistan properly don't know the case around it, all they know so far is propaganda pushed down there throats.

2. If KJ so was so terrorist, then have a fair trail and let the world and India know, how we are sponsoring terror.

3. Speaking on Kasab, so you are openly accepting he was a Pakistani who was trained for killing people in India? he was captured live in CCTV videos, wielding AK47 firing bullets to whoever in sight, what more you wanted counsellor access for? to award a Medal?