ICJ hearing on Kulbhushan Jadhav case : News, Updates & Discussions

[I.R.A]

How the hell do you prove someone is innocent when there is basically no evidence to suggest he is guilty, other than a doctored and edited confession tape which makes little impact in an actual court of law.

In my opinion indians should ask RAW if Yadev is guilty or not, considering RAW won't lie to its government and countrymen. Screaming on Pakistani forum asking Pakistanis to prove Yadev's crimes is ridiculous (We have thousands of terrorist attacks and thousands of terrorists at our disposal, no one can refute that). Ask RAW if "We have your monkey" really means what it means.

 

[Logicaldude]

india will not get anything from ICJ.

Oh we will.

We will get precedence and moral authority on how to deal with you guys. That's the very least we will get.

It's about what one wants. You may think a secret trial of a person denied access and legal help gives you respect, we think legally fighting to provide him his basic rights gives us ours. We are different people you see, we are after different things.

 

[MM_Haider]

I am impressed with the way most Pakistani posters simply make stuff up on the forum. Another poster was saying today that Trump compromises an ISI asset to the Russians. He offered that as a fact with a shameless straight face, same as your lies above.

And no, Kasab was offered consular access, as always ghairtmand Pakistani govt disowned him. That's a long illustrious record now.

Lying comes so easy to you. I find it intriguing.

Pakistan did offer the consular access on the condition that India will help in the investigation viz., proving that he is Indian citizen, supplying birth certificates and his contact with Indian high ups.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/605932/pak-wanted-india-accept-role.html

 

[G H A Z I]

KY is going home .. Alive

Hope it's not that way
He should be sent in a coffin

 

[G H A Z I]

I am impressed with the way most Pakistani posters simply make stuff up on the forum. Another poster was saying today that Trump compromises an ISI asset to the Russians. He offered that as a fact with a shameless straight face, same as your lies above.

And no, Kasab was offered consular access, as always ghairtmand Pakistani govt disowned him. That's a long illustrious record now.

Lying comes so easy to you. I find it intriguing.

India too showed no relation with kj unless they heard of the hanging and confessional video

 

[Logicaldude]

Pakistan did offer the consular access on the condition that India will help in the investigation viz., proving that he is Indian citizen, supplying birth certificates and his contact with Indian high ups.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/605932/pak-wanted-india-accept-role.html

Exactly. Pakistan denied consular access.

Do you people even understand the difference between consular access and hostage taking for demands? Apparently not.

Now I am very happy we made this high profile. Pakistans pariah behaviour is getting exposed.

 

[Icarus]

Sir, on the forum people are talking about hanging KJ and how that will teach us a lesson etc. I think a more mature discourse is required.

It is being made out that India wants to save KJ. KJ is just an individual, the state of India is concerned not for the individual but for the precedence this sets and the processes that are followed. We feel that the resultant further deterioration will further weaken the mechanism of bilateral relations between us and hence want full details and clarity so that we can study and implement the outcomes. We know our options on Jadhav are limited but as an Indian this gives me confidence that my state will support me if needed.

This is not about Jadhav. This is sticking to Indian stand that we don't know what happened as we have not been told or granted access and we think this is in violation of current practice.

Why are people not seeing this perfectly reasonable (from Indian POV) stand? We are not even commenting on the details of the case as we don't know them, which is exactly our beef (buffalo)!!!

I'm inclined to wait for the ICJ's verdict before I pass my own. As far as KJ's own status goes, the man is undoubtedly a spy, although one might say that the state is pinning too much on him, the fact remains that he was not here to distribute sweets to orphans. There was some sinister motive involved and I do believe that if we simply allow him to return to India, it will further embolden India to engage in destabilizing Pakistan knowing that it can simply turn to the international community if any of its non-burnable assets are captured.

From an Indian perspective however, it makes sense to get their man back and of course I hold nothing against them for doing that. Similarly, I hold nothing against CDR Jhadav, he was just performing his duty. But as men in security, we know that we intentionally put ourselves in harm's way to get these things done, we know that things can go south as they did with Jhadav and we must be ready to bear with that.

As far as the question of bilateral relations goes, they have already deteriorated to the point that there is now no "carrot and stick policy" to be pursued there. There are hardly any working peace initiatives, our water is already being leached and in the monsoons we'll be flooded like every year, we have the lowest regional trade of any region, patients are being refused treatment in India unless they get a recommendation from the PM's Special Advisor on Foreign Affairs. There's essentially nothing left in terms of bilateral relations to be worried about.

 

[Tom M]

india will not get anything from ICJ.

No sir it will set a precedent. Just wait and see, the wold doesn't end in a day or two.

 

[war&peace]

Oh we will.

We will get precedence and moral authority on how to deal with you guys. That's the very least we will get.

It's about what one wants. You may think a secret trial of a person denied access and legal help gives you respect, we think legally fighting to provide him his basic rights gives us ours. We are different people you see, we are after different things.

If that was so, he would already be dead. A fair trial has taken place and he has been punished by a court of law over which ICJ has no jurisdiction. India is wasting our time and the courts but the positive side effect is the free internationalisation of the case which our govt had badly messed. That is why some people call Modi to be the best foreign minister for Pakistan..
His attempt to isolate Pakistan seems to work its charm by isolating india while China offering Pakistan USD 50 for the sole purpose of the water resource development. So keep on dragging your poor india into courts and provide this case an international audience. Good job.

 

[Logicaldude]

India too showed no relation with kj unless they heard of the hanging and confessional video

Again. Lying comes so easy to you. You made that up didn't u?

How did India come to know of his detention? Through media. As soon as that happened, India sought consular access after ascertaining he is Indian. For people with a watertight case, you people lie through the teeth too often.

I'm inclined to wait for the ICJ's verdict before I pass my own. As far as KJ's own status goes, the man is undoubtedly a spy, although one might say that the state is pinning too much on him, the fact remains that he was not here to distribute sweets to orphans. There was some sinister motive involved and I do believe that if we simply allow him to return to India, it will further embolden India to engage in destabilizing Pakistan knowing that it can simply turn to the international community if any of its non-burnable assets are captured.

From an Indian perspective however, it makes sense to get their man back and of course I hold nothing against them for doing that. Similarly, I hold nothing against CDR Jhadav, he was just performing his duty. But as men in security, we know that we intentionally put ourselves in harm's way to get these things done, we know that things can go south as they did with Jhadav and we must be ready to bear with that.

As far as the question of bilateral relations goes, they have already deteriorated to the point that there is now no "carrot and stick policy" to be pursued there. There are hardly any working peace initiatives, our water is already being leached and in the monsoons we'll be flooded like every year, we have the lowest regional trade of any region, patients are being refused treatment in India unless they get a recommendation from the PM's Special Advisor on Foreign Affairs. There's essentially nothing left in terms of bilateral relations to be worried about.

I would differentiate between openly declared visa related temporary measure and a procesural precedence on how to treat each other's nationals once in their country (or neighbouring countries?). There are severe implications here.

Also, KJ may be a spy I as a common man do not know. May be you know something that I don't. We are not giving a character certificate here, we are asking that he be given a fair trial and a chance to defend himself. I think that is a fair demand from our point of view.

 

[ShoutB]

ICJ work as per their jurisprudence. And it is not the merit rather the way a country/parties interprets it and present their case according to that. ICJ had pronounced similar verdict in favor of the convicts thrice in the past, it had asked to provide counselor access to the convicts. Ironically all the three verdicts were against United States, but they simply rejected all bringing in the same ground that ICJ doesn't have the jurisdiction in the matters of U.S internal security. So if Pakistan takes similar stand it's nothing to be surprised, even India would have aggressively pushed for the same if tables were turned.

But I guess the whole exercise from the Indian side is to bring the details of charges, trail and punishment from Pakistan's tight encapsulation into public domain. Pakistan had done something stupid here, since they could have shared the certified copies of the aforementioned things, but failed to provide that even after multiple requests. This will be something that India is gonna highlight in the coming days.

They have lost the plot. Because in public domain they have nothing to share. And whatever they have cannot be considered has authentic evidence, this comes from deniability of ICJ for accepting the video confession. It was rather jingoistic verdict by Pakistan's field court.

 

[Icarus]

I would differentiate between openly declared visa related temporary measure and a procesural precedence on how to treat each other's nationals once in their country (or neighbouring countries?). There are severe implications here.

Once again the set precedent leaves little to be desired in terms of how the other's nationals are treated in our respective countries. The precedent is hardly positive. There haven't been suitable steps taken from either side.

Also, KJ may be a spy I as a common man do not know. May be you know something that I don't. We are not giving a character certificate here, we are asking that he be given a fair trial and a chance to defend himself. I think that is a fair demand from our point of view.

I fully agree, every individual is entitled to a fair chance at defending themselves in front of a competent court. On one hand, I feel that KJ had his best chance at the Field General Court Martial seeing as civilian courts are a joke and no civilian attorney would risk taking his case. The FGCM is highly procedural and frankly, a lot more competent than most local courts.

That being said, the Indian concern in this case is also valid. They need proof that their man was given a fair trail, was accorded legal representation and only after due process was he sentenced. In this case perhaps offering them video evidence, case files, allowing a representative of the mission to bear witness to the trial without interacting with Jhadav would help allay their concerns. However, I would again note that the main thrust of the Indian argument is not so much on a fair trial, they simply need their man back, and even if these concerns were allayed, new ones would be presented in their stead to somehow prove that Jhadav should be surrendered to Indian custody.

 

[Logicaldude]

If that was so, he would already be dead. A fair trial has taken place and he has been punished by a court of law over which ICJ has no jurisdiction. India is wasting our time and the courts but the positive side effect is the free internationalisation of the case which our govt had badly messed. That is why some people call Modi to be the best foreign minister for Pakistan..
His attempt to isolate Pakistan seems to work its charm by isolating india while China offering Pakistan USD 50 for the sole purpose of the water resource development. So keep on dragging your poor india into courts and provide this case an international audience. Good job.

Logic - if someone is alive today he has had a fair trial. Mashallah!

Logic 2 - Since you brought CPEC as one must on any thread, China and Japan competed for Ahmedabad Mumbai HSR. Japan beat China by offering 12 billion loan for 50 years at - wait for it - 0.1 percent in Pakistan no competition, China dectates interest rates, insures the loans, gets return guarantees on equity, gets tax free income, keeps 90 pct revenue from Gwadar and SEZ because there is NO competition. That's isolation, and that is the price of isolation you are paying and cheering with pom-poms for it enjoy!

 

[Logicaldude]

Once again the set precedent leaves little to be desired in terms of how the other's nationals are treated in our respective countries. The precedent is hardly positive. There haven't been suitable steps taken from either side.



I fully agree, every individual is entitled to a fair chance at defending themselves in front of a competent court. On one hand, I feel that KJ had his best chance at the Field General Court Martial seeing as civilian courts are a joke and no civilian attorney would risk taking his case. The FGCM is highly procedural and frankly, a lot more competent than most local courts.

That being said, the Indian concern in this case is also valid. They need proof that their man was given a fair trail, was accorded legal representation and only after due process was he sentenced. In this case perhaps offering them video evidence, case files, allowing a representative of the mission to bear witness to the trial without interacting with Jhadav would help allay their concerns. However, I would again note that the main thrust of the Indian argument is not so much on a fair trial, they simply need their man back, and even if these concerns were allayed, new ones would be presented in their stead to somehow prove that Jhadav should be surrendered to Indian custody.

Sir for your last contention about India wanting the man back, you are missing the finer point that Indias demand for scrapping his trial are based purely on the argument that correct process has not been followed. So correct process including consular access remains the crux of our argument. This must not be viewed as a character certificate.

 

[Star Wars]

However, I would again note that the main thrust of the Indian argument is not so much on a fair trial, they simply need their man back, and even if these concerns were allayed, new ones would be presented in their stead to somehow prove that Jhadav should be surrendered to Indian custody.

Imagine if a Pakistani was arrested in India and charged with terrorism, there was no video of court proceedings, he is not allowed to contact his family or his country and is put to Death without basically any information being shared except for what is shared in public. Would Pakistan just allow its citizens to die in foreign soil in that manner ? Its not about freeing KY, as per India's or my own point of view. What is to stop Pakistan from not Kidnapping an Indian from Afghanistan and framing him for terrorism and putting him to death ? Anything the ISPR says will be believed by the Pakistani awam, especially regarding India.