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ICHR member calls Indian Leftists Jihad-friendly

So basically your point is that you think you know a lot? Good for you I'll pop a cracker, but what's your point on the subject under discussion? is there a need to revisit the way that history in India is researched ?

What is your academic setting? The Socialist School of Reeducation and intellectual Correction?
 
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surely you can call anything you want.. news should show the bias of the guy who is talking about other's bias..

I don't know...If you were asking these questions when Romila Thapar was described as "Indian historian" or when Ramachandra Guha passed off as a historian, then things wouldn't have come to this, right? I mean, I can't remember any MSM calling Ms.Thapar a Leftist-historian or Mr.Amartya Sen as a Leftist-economist/Congress appointee VC or Mr.Guha as a Cricket historian/Gandhi-family historian. Neither were you complaining then.
 
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So basically your point is that you think you know a lot? Good for you I'll pop a cracker, but what's your point on the subject under discussion? is there a need to revisit the way that history in India is researched ?

What is your academic setting? The Socialist School of Reeducation and intellectual Correction?

Uffff ....... you just took the wind out of his bag :P
 
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I assume that the historian has a different meaning for the term Jihad perhaps he means it to be something related to terror or radicals. I would expect him to be more careful with selection of words as he is a learned and experienced person but wont fully blame him for that as Islamic radicals and terrorists are more responsible for the degradation of the word "jihad". Its a pious word in Islam.

Secondly its easy to generalize things based on one instance. Leftists are basically athiests and oppose any kind of physical or psychological oppression of the masses. As a result they have been critical of religions and as it would be in the Indian context, mostly hinduism. Thats where they made mistake and the historian took that opportunity to malign the whole lot of Leftists. History is a set of facts and a set of interpretation of the facts. While interpretations could be multiple, the facts will remain one and same. Sometimes or often the facts are presented in such a way that its unique interpretation becomes obvious. Thats what most govts. try to do which is not right. To the extent, the facts are not altered, any views or interpretations should be welcomed for academic purposes.
 
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Actually I agree with couple of points in the article. I studied from CBSE and passed out a decade ago. In our history, we had chapters after chapters of Mughals, Delhi Sultanates and the British. When I was growing up, for me and most of my fellow classmates (atleast the ones interested in history) we had a view of our History starting from 1000 AD and ending with Indias independence, with a tinge of small events of our ancient rulers/ civilisations.

If not for the internet and preparation for other competitive exams (UPSC, RBI, etc.), we would have never been able to grasp the importance of our earlier kingdoms like the Guptas or the Satavahanas or even the Marathas.

For some of our resident liberals @Joe Shearer @hinduguy (what an ironical name btw), we were told the emphasis was on medieval India as it shaped our contemporary history. Now, I have a basic few questions regarding this viewpoint...

1) Even if this reason stands, why aren't the kids are taught a whole Chapter of the Marathas and their reconquest of India from the Mughals, or for that matter the Sikhs and their centuries of struggle against the Mughals? Even prior to 1500, there were so many non muslim rulers (Assam, Orrissa, South India). Didn't they belong to medieval period?

2) Why is it that our history starts from the Islamic conquests of our land? People say the prior history is not that important in today's world. Why not? majority of Indians are Hindus and yes, those historical events are as much important as the Arabic civilisations are for our secular brigade.

@SarthakGanguly @Biplab Bijay @Nicky G @jaatram

THE MYTH OF MUSLIM EMPIRE IN INDIA

Fact is, our history has been hijaked by nehruvian and left leaning self declared secularists like the ones we have on PDF. But in this internet age where information cannot remain confined to the shelves of libraries, more and more people will voice their concerns regarding this.
 
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All these years people of India were believing that a cot has three legs, such was the impact of leftist brain washing on the psyche of the mass now when the truth emerges many have heart burn, golden era has just begun

FOIL-Propaganda-Network-03-02-14.jpg



Radical Leftist Propaganda Network
This page provides important information regarding the interconnections between various Radical Indian Leftist groups in the United States and Canada. The “mother ship” of the Radical Indian Leftists is known as the Forum of Inquilabi Leftists (FOIL) and has spawned several groups and organizations that work hand-in-glove with other members of the nexus to demonize Hinduism and India.

Key members of FOIL such as Angana Chatterji, Biju Mathew, Shalini Gera, Ravi (Ra) Ravishankar, Raja Harish Swamy, Balmurli Natrajan and Ashwini Rao and are prominent coordinators and spokespersons for CAG. Mathew is also a co-founder of FOIL. As illustrated here, FOIL and its members follow a radical left wing Marxist/Communist ideology that supports violent Maoist revolutionary movements in India. In addition, FOIL and its members are known for their disparaging views of Hinduism and India.

The diagram and the table below illustrate how FOIL’s and CAG’s false propaganda works. FOIL and CAG list the below organizations as separate, independent and broad-based, when in fact they are all run, supported or funded by FOIL and their members.

  • For example, CAG lists the following organizations as separate entities: Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (CSFH), Youth Solidarity Summer (YSS), Organizing Youth! (OY), International South Asia Forum (INSAF), Alliance of South Asians Taking Action (ASATA), Association of South Asian Progressives (ASAP), EKTA, Coalition Against Communalism (CAC), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asian Collective (SAC), Alliance for a Secular and Democratic South Asia (ASDSA) and South Asian Magazine for Action and Reflection (SAMAR). However, CSFH, YSS, OY and FOSA are also registered to FOSA as per the site registration information on WhoIs.Net. Similarly, EKTA hosts the websites of YSS, OY, EKTA, CAC and FOSA.[1] And, EKTA’s main website was also registered to Ramkumar Sridharan of FOSA.[2] Further, the websites of FOIL and INSAF are registered to Rajasekhar Ramakrishnan, an old-time FOIL member.
  • The writeup on ASDSA shows that it is interconnected to FOIL through its stalwart Abha Sur, who is also the Vice President of SINGH Foundation (the fundraising arm of FOIL).
  • The writeup on ASATA shows that it is a new incarnation of YSS and OY to attract youth in the San Francisco Bay Area.
  • The write up on ASAP shows that it is a defunct organization that was affiliated with Biju Mathew.
  • The following section provides evidence that YSS and OY are essentially youth wings of FOIL. The writeup also provides illustrates a list of prominent members of YSS based on the YSS Workbook, along with some of the organizations that they are part of, or have started.
  • The section on SAC demonstrates that it is also a defunct organization that was affiliated with Ravi (Ra) Ravishankar during his student days at the University of Illinois at Urbana Champagne.
  • The section on SAMAR Magazine features writings and contributions from prominent members of FOIL and its affiliates. In addition, some FOIL members sit on SAMAR’s editorial board.
  • The section on CSFH illustrates that it is yet another coalition formed by FOIL members, including Angana Chatterji, Biju Mathew, Raja Harish Swamy, Ravi (Ra) Ravishankar, Ashwini Rao, Shalini Gera and Balmurli Natrajan, among others.
The Macaulay Fraud
Even in the computer age we are not safe from historical deceit, and in some ways we may actually be more vulnerable to it. Fraudulent text can run round the world as HTML code much faster than the printed word on paper, and it convinces more easily than verbal rumour, because neatly printed words take on the mantle of authority customarily accorded to books, and thus carry more weight than the whispers that they really are.

Exactly this authority has been granted to a bogus quotation, supposedly culled from a speech by Thomas Macaulay in the House of Commons, which has now become a fixture of popular Indian history, accepted at face value by non-experts, and even on occasion used by very senior Indian politicians, including President A. P. J. Kalam.

For those of you who think this might be an academic issue, or some rarefied debate from another era, the quote has a current life in serious politics.

It appears, in full, on the BJP’s website, here.

And Imran Khan has just quoted the same fictional speech as part of his protest campaign against the Nawaz Sharif government.

Thomas Babington Macaulay (1800-59), was intimately involved with the policies of the British regime in India as it moved from ad hoc conquest to permanent dominion. He made his influence felt at a crucial point in the creation of the British Raj, as it was developing from a regime of pure subjection with no other ends but self-perpetuation, to a regime that betrayed some awareness of the responsibilities that ‘good’ government (in liberal terms) should take on. The job be went out to do, in 1834, was to draft a new unified ‘rational’ penal code for India. This new code was to replace the criminal law that came into force under Lord Cornwallis’ reforms of the early 1790s. This in its turn had replaced the Shari’a law enforced by the Mughals. Macaulay’s task was accomplished in two years, from 1836-8, and after much discussion, and some revision, was finally introduced in 1861.

He also, by the by, drafted a famous Minute on Education for Governor-General Lord William Bentinck in 1835, as the latter was reviewing how to spend the education fund set aside by the Charter Act of 1813, and deciding whether to forge ahead with a new style of education in English, or to stay with the more conservative, existing policy of providing (higher) education in Sanskrit, Persian and other oriental languages. Macaulay was decidedly in favour of adopting the new approach, and set out his arguments with typical eloquence. He felt that modern science could never come to India if Indians were not acquainted with English, and he felt that an education in English ‘humanities’ would accelerate the development of the country intellectually, as well as providing a steady local supply of amenable government servants.

It is principally on this second count that so many nationalist Indians have come to loathe Macaulay, and their general desire to discredit the man has led to the widespread dissemination of a damaging, highly illiberal quotation, allegedly from a speech made by him in Parliament. This quotation is a demonstrable fake, but a generation of internet cut-and-pasters, raised on facile conspiracy theories. have turned it into ‘truth’ by sheer multiplication. It is familiar to an Indian audience but it is almost entirely unknown in Britain. Here it is in full:

“I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”

This text has no place as a trump card in any argument. It is clearly bogus, and can be shown to be such under any of three headings: its alleged date (usually given as February 2 1835), its political content, and its language.

  1. Macaulay was not in Britain in February 1835. He spent the years 1834-38 in India, as Law Member on the Governor General’s Council.
  2. Indian education was not a matter for discussion in Parliament, but for the Governor General’s Council in Calcutta. It was to this body that Macaulay delivered his famous Education Minute, which actually was dated 2nd February 1835.
  3. The views expressed in the quote do not correspond with Macaulay’s stated opinions about India and Indian culture. Like most of his contemporaries Macaulay believed India to be a land full of ignorant and dishonest people. The root causes of their degraded condition were despotic rulers and heathen religion. He wanted English language education specifically to ennoble and enlighten Indians, not to break, crush or destroy them. He also believed, from personal observation, that India was a poor country, and said so in a Minute proposing reform of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in Calcutta.
  4. The alleged quote also contradicts Macaulay’s stated position about India in general. He emphasised, in 1833, in a (real) speech in Parliament how chaotic India was before the British came. That too was a standard attitude. If he had seen any orderliness in India, then he would not have considered it a natural condition of the natives, but a result of the arrival of British rule.
So, we can see that the date 2nd February 1835 cannot possibly be correct, nor can the quote be credible given any date anyone might possibly dream up for it. Macaulay could not have spoken these words before 1834, because they contain references to what he says he has seen in India, which he had not then visited. So he could not have talked of travelling the length and breadth of the country at that time. Therefore the quote could only be delivered after his return. But he could not possibly have said them upon his return either, because by then his policy had been adopted, so he wouldn’t need to ‘propose’ anything. Thus, from purely internal evidence, the quote cannot be a report of anything ever said by Macaulay, in the House of Commons or anywhere else, before or after visiting India. He could not have come back from India and yet still be proposing reforms in London.

Furthermore, the language is terse and crude and does not read in the least like Macaulay’s style. His speeches were balanced in their construction and felicitous in their vocabulary, following the classical models used by contemporary Englishmen. In the quote, the expression ‘self-culture’ is an anachronism, borrowed from later writings on self-improvement, and “I do not think we would ever conquer” does not make sense. In grammatical terms, at least half of it must be in the wrong tense. Nor could Macaulay have applied such language even with congruent tenses, because there was nothing future or conditional about the reality of the British conquest of most of India in 1835. By then the only major part of the Indian nation that had not already had its backbone broken was the Sikh part. Macaulay must have forgotten that to have sounded so gloomy.

So at the very least the quote is adulterated, if not misattributed, or at worst, completely made up. It does not exist in the sources and it is riddled with damning internal inconsistencies. If these words were spoken by someone else, in some other place, then we need to be told by whom and where. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Macaulay, nor do they accurately represent British education policy of 1835.

The best investigation of the original source appears, to his credit, on the website of Hindutva sympathiser, Koenraad Elst, who has traced its provenance to an on-line magazine-periodical named The Awakening Ray, Vol. 4 No. 5, (2000). Whereas the original quote opens there with a disclaimer that reads: ‘His words were to this effect…’ this subtle warning of impending paraphrase, précis or invention has been persistently overlooked by the enthusiasts who have copied the paragraphs that follow.

This chain of (mis-)attribution has now even found its way onto the Wikipedia page for Macaulay. The quote lives stubbornly on. Enquiries (by me) to The Gnostic Centre, publishers of The Awakening Ray, asking what their original source was, remain unanswered.

But this piece of mischievous myth-making is not the only attack on Macaulay, who has suffered repeatedly from assaults on his integrity.

Despite the fact that Macaulay was rather frowned upon in British politics for his intellectual independence, and was even attacked for his lack of Christian principles, he has regularly been turned into a front-rank missionary by some Indian writers, who are either incapable or unwilling to make accurate distinctions within British culture. To depict Macaulay as a militant Christian is incorrect. His brother-in-law Charles Trevelyanwas a committed Christian, but Macaulay was not. His father certainly was, and the best evidence his detractors can produce for Macaulay’s alleged Christian enthusiasm is one sentence from one letter he wrote to his father, from India, expressing the hope that idolatry in India would fade away within thirty years. But the means he expected to accomplish this was the arrival of Western science and English literature, not deliberate attempts at conversion. Those who select this one passage and extrapolate a fanatical missionary zeal in Macaulay have clearly never taken the trouble to read his Education Minute, which is widely available on-line.

It contains this sentence: ‘We abstain, and I trust shall always abstain, from giving any public encouragement to those who are engaged in the work of converting the natives to Christianity.’ This, in plain authoritative black and white, was Macaulay’s opinion.

Macaulay’s intention was to educate Indians into liberalism, but not necessarily Christianity. What he was doing he supposed was useful, in the broad tradition of Benthamite Utilitarianism, though in another twist, Macaulay was not himself a Benthamite, and once had a public spat with Bentham’s greatest disciple, James Mill. There is no mention of Christianisation in the Minute of 1835. Macaulay personally thought archaic Hinduism to be absurd and irrational, and took it at face value, like most of his contemporaries. He was a rationalist and he took exception to the mythical elements in Hindu history. He was not impressed by the subtleties of Upanishadic philosophy, and remained happy to throw it out en bloc.

He was working for the British government of India and his aims were to improve that government, and to secure it by the creation and recruitment of suitable clerks. He did not, as is sometimes suggested, wish to abolish education in Indian languages. What he wanted to do was to conduct higher education in India in English, in order to give the best Indian minds access to modern science and liberal political philosophy, about which nothing was written in the ancient ‘classical’ languages of Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic. He actually wanted the more highly educated Indians to translate suitable texts into vernacular languages, in order that the wider population could become more conversant with general western concepts. He wanted to pacify, educate and advance Indian society, not to retard or destroy it, or to dominate it at a micro-managerial level. He was a sincere liberal, and he expected that Indians would sort out their own affairs, take on responsibilities, advance intellectually, and then eventually, of their own accord, abandon the archaic and oppressive superstitions that he, and most of his contemporaries, thought were perpetuating Indian poverty and backwardness.

Macaulay was in favour of a civilising, modernising, uplifting mission, not an explicitly evangelising one. As we have seen, he did not approve of missionary work. He was certainly prepared to dismiss and denigrate Indian culture, literature and philosophy, and was quite bigoted on the subject. He had nothing but contempt for ancient, oriental wisdom, which he considered to be obscurantist poppycock.

But he could not bear the thought that young, potentially loyal Indians, who might benefit from a western style education in English, could be left to rot with their old, discredited, priestly scriptures. He was not bothered about salvation. He was concerned with the administration of the Empire. There was no hidden agenda. He wrote it all in the Minute himself. If he was anything, Macaulay was expansively articulate, and perfectly straightforward within the liberal English tradition. He was culturally arrogant, and a great partisan of causes, but he did not wish India and Indians any ill; his speech on the Charter Bill in 1833 contains a long explication of the idea that, in terms of India, the British would be better off trading with wealthy equals than ruling a nation of impoverished slaves. He wanted Indians to improve and flourish, and to his way of thinking, that involved making them into brown Englishmen.

If that thought is still offensive, and to many it will be, then so be it. But it is actually what he wanted to do. Condemn or forgive him as necessary, but it is not possible to understand him, or Indian history, by distorting his views, or inventing views he never had.
 
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ICHR member calls Indian Leftists Jihad-friendly

Indian Leftists have been Jihad-friendly and the state patronised their views post-Independence, said a new Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR) member on Sunday in a stinging attack on Left-leaning historians who were at the forefront of history writing since the 1970s.

ICHR member and retired Hansraj college associate professor of history, Saradindu Mukherji, told HT that some historians had been terribly biased and had a political agenda which helped them career-wise.

“In India, it was just not Left … I would call it Jihad-friendly Left. Hence, they had to take a definitely anti-Hindu line, decry every positive aspect of our ancient civilization,” he said, reprising a growing chorus against Leftist historians since the NDA came to power last May.

Mukherji saw a bias in the way medieval history has been written. “Hindus suffered terribly at the hands of their Islamic conquerors and rulers,” he said. “Look at the records and not the propagandist books, doctoral dissertations, and you find every such activity of destruction of temples, discrimination, forced conversion is either being smothered or rationalised if not justified, too.

He took on Christian missionaries and minced no words to support ghar wapsi or homecoming. “For Christian missionaries (exceptions apart), conversion of heathens is an important objective. Once you allow people belonging to certain predatory religions to tell Hindus that they have false gods and only they have true gods … and so they should abandon their ghar … there would be problems,” he said.

“By that logic, Hindus must go back to these victims of false theology and tell them that they should return to their parental homes...”

To him, Mother Teresa is “indeed a controversial figure”.

He said the proportional decline of Hindus, as indicated by reports on the latest census, needed to be reversed. “We can’t afford another religion-based partition.”
You dont know the logic, do you ?

The Indian Secular logic says :
Christian Missionaries converting Hindus : Everyone has the right to practice and preach their religion freely. Bad Hindus, Bad Sanghi etc are communal and opposing it.

Ghar Wapsi : Bad Hindus, Bad Sanghis are converting Christians and muslims into Hinduism. How dare they ? Bad Hindus, Communal Sanghis.

So get used to it . Ok ?

I believe that is more well known and even better accepted, the jihadi angle not so much.



If only news reflected bias, we'd be living in a different India. It obviously does not. Case in point the recent maligning of Hindu organization for attacks on Christians when nothing of the sort happened and utter silence when the truth starts to come out.

You are free to keep inserting your qualifications to news items though. See how much it helps you when not in power.

You will not get any where. Indian Seculars will reply with 2002 and 1984.

The Internet has bred intellectual retards.
Only Indian seculars are true intelligent people.

Why Muslim personal law board was hidden behind Nehruvian secular facade?
Because this law is in Accordance with true Indian secular logic. You are a bad Hindu, bad sanghi.

I assume by your smug post that you feel your intellectual abilities are far superior to a mere neighborhood school teacher with a smattering of stats ? So what is your point Mr Genius ? Or are you just waffling on about nothing at all ?

There was much cruelty in the past and continues to be today ... So ? I really don't get what you are trying to say other than that you are super smart... That I am happy to concede.
He is saying that since more people have died because of natural calamities, we must forget the atrocities done by the invaders. It is just the same way Pakistani people say. They say since more people are dying because of car accident everyday, terrorism is not a big issue.
 
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I assume that the historian has a different meaning for the term Jihad perhaps he means it to be something related to terror or radicals. I would expect him to be more careful with selection of words as he is a learned and experienced person but wont fully blame him for that as Islamic radicals and terrorists are more responsible for the degradation of the word "jihad". Its a pious word in Islam.

Secondly its easy to generalize things based on one instance. Leftists are basically athiests and oppose any kind of physical or psychological oppression of the masses. As a result they have been critical of religions and as it would be in the Indian context, mostly hinduism. Thats where they made mistake and the historian took that opportunity to malign the whole lot of Leftists. History is a set of facts and a set of interpretation of the facts. While interpretations could be multiple, the facts will remain one and same. Sometimes or often the facts are presented in such a way that its unique interpretation becomes obvious. Thats what most govts. try to do which is not right. To the extent, the facts are not altered, any views or interpretations should be welcomed for academic purposes.
The problem is leftists have not been critical of religions but critical of only one religion. That is what I want to say.
 
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Did he say something incorrect?


Yes there is a problem :angry:

Mudi is going to re write India's effing history

He will replace our glorious past with sanghi version which demonizes erstwhile Muslim kings and glorify hindu kings

This could trigger Utter chaos and calamity

These guys are playing with fire

Like i said in other thread FASCISM AT ITS PEAK

God help us
 
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You dont know the logic, do you ?

The Indian Secular logic says :
Christian Missionaries converting Hindus : Everyone has the right to practice and preach their religion freely. Bad Hindus, Bad Sanghi etc are communal and opposing it.

Ghar Wapsi : Bad Hindus, Bad Sanghis are converting Christians and muslims into Hinduism. How dare they ? Bad Hindus, Communal Sanghis.

So get used to it . Ok ?



You will not get any where. Indian Seculars will reply with 2002 and 1984.


Only Indian seculars are true intelligent people.


Because this law is in Accordance with true Indian secular logic. You are a bad Hindu, bad sanghi.


He is saying that since more people have died because of natural calamities, we must forget the atrocities done by the invaders. It is just the same way Pakistani people say. They say since more people are dying because of car accident everyday, terrorism is not a big issue.

OK thanks
 
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