IAF to order around 100 more LCA Mark-1A fighter jets for over $8 billion

[maithil]

That makes it 180+.. All Mig-21 and 29s can be replaced with Mk-1A now.. Easily a giant leap in capabilities.

 

[VkdIndian]

MK IA is not good enough against the Chinese threats, but, it should be able to do the job on the western borders. It would be a worthy fighter and definitely better than the older JF variants. Latest JF may be neck to neck with MK IA in few aspects.

If it’s radar is good enough, then newer missiles can be easily integrated considering our home grown AA missile program is doing very well. It’s payload and combat range would remain a handicap in the long run.

Overall, it appears to be a good way to move forward, till MK II comes into the picture.

 

[Zarvan]

MK IA is not good enough against the Chinese threats, but, it should be able to do the job on the western borders. It would be a worthy fighter against all JF variants, especially the older ones.

If it’s radar is good enough, then newer missiles can be easily integrated considering our home grown AA missile program is doing very well. It’s payload and combat range would remain a handicap in the long run.

Overall, it appears to be a good way to move forward, till MK II comes into the picture.

By the time you would get TEJAS MK 1 A in significant numbers. All older JF-17 versions will be upgraded to BLOCK III level.

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

By the time you would get TEJAS MK 1 A in significant numbers. All older JF-17 versions will be upgraded to BLOCK III level.

LCA Tejas Mk-1A Production Set To Increase From 16 To 24 Every Year, As HAL Unveils New Assembly Line

[object Object]

www.google.com

 

[hari sud]

yes, agreed...



Astra Mk1 - with range 110 KM.... We need Astra Mk2 with a range over 150 KM..

Example - If Chinese fighter fires a missile over 110 KM range, what Tejas will do with 110 KM range missiles?

All missiles are capable in mid range. Extreme range is given as a marketing tool. Never has an American 120km range missile has ever shot down any plane or fast moving fighter at 120km. Chinese missiles are far less accurate but they claim unusually high numbers.

 

[maithil]

yes, agreed...



Astra Mk1 - with range 110 KM.... We need Astra Mk2 with a range over 150 KM..

Example - If Chinese fighter fires a missile over 110 KM range, what Tejas will do with 110 KM range missiles?

AAMs are fired near NEZ, not at max range.. Astra-Uttam combined will give any Chinese Aircraft run for their money.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1665748560170631168

I meant that Chinese will always have the chance to fire first, with 110 KM AA missiles, fighters will go into defensive mode.

All missiles are capable in mid range. Extreme range is given as a marketing tool. Never has an American 120km range missile has ever shot down any plane or fast moving fighter at 120km. Chinese missiles are far less accurate but they claim unusually high numbers.

maybe, maybe not, but with greater range capability, - always have a chance to hit first.

Just think - both fighters are head-to-head and fire the missile over a 120-kilometer range, so what will the next fighter do? Must be dodging the missiles, right?

Meanwhile, again, the first fighter will reach closer to fire a second BVR hit.

 

[JohnyD]

Build the capacity and optimize the local supply chain..

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

With the significant quantities of 223 Tejas MK1A and over 200 Tejas MK2, the necessity for MMRCA appears to be redundant.

 

[migflug]

I meant that Chinese will always have the chance to fire first, with 110 KM AA missiles, fighters will go into defensive mode.



maybe, maybe not, but with greater range capability, - always have a chance to hit first.

Just think - both fighters are head-to-head and fire the missile over a 120-kilometer range, so what will the next fighter do? Must be dodging the missiles, right?

Meanwhile, again, the first fighter will reach closer to fire a second BVR hit.

For that they have to recognize/find the plane first. Here Tejas has slight advantage as it has low RCS. Beyond that its just Cat and Mouse game!

With the significant quantities of 223 Tejas MK1A and over 200 Tejas MK2, the necessity for MMRCA appears to be redundant.

That's the aim. Especially in this era, the electronics is what matters and not the pure aerodynamic stats and if we can have decent number( which has decent electronics) at the low price, then its the way to go. Moreover its will strengthen our eco-system!! In todays world, even the mighty Su30MKI appears to be obsolete unless we upgrade them. Hopefully we do it quickly!

 

[VkdIndian]

All older JF-17 versions will be upgraded to BLOCK III level.

If that can be done, then good for you.

But, my take is that it wouldn’t be possible to upgrade due to structural issues.

All missiles are capable in mid range. Extreme range is given as a marketing tool.

That’s a valid argument. Even in the skirmish with PAF, they fired AMRAMS at much lesser ranges.

 

[indushek]

Honestly we only need nearly 40 + 83 + 50 (not 100) aircrafts, where are we going to use this many aircrafts as using them against the Chinese would be a fruitless endeavour, Tejas mk1 is too short legged to fight against qualitatively and quantitatively superior J 10s we need Tejas mk2 for that.

Actually we need to see our current feet composition, to see where they fit

242 - Su30 MKI std
132 - Mig21 Bis std supposed to be phased out by 2025
130 - Jaguar M/S std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
66 - Mig 29 UPG std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
45 - M2000H/I std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
36 - Rafale F3 std

132 aircrafts (Mig21) to be gone by 2025
130 + 66 +45 = 241 Aircrafts to be phased out 2035

If you notice Mig21/Jaguar/Mirage , these three are mostly for Pakistani threat.

To be honest our Airforce itself is geared up mostly for Pakistan, and we never planned for anything towards China.

So we do need 40 + 83 + 100 Mk1 or Mk1A plus 130 Mk2 to replace, Mig21/Jaguar/Mirage/Mig29 as quickly as possible to keep the 42 squadrons intended by IAF.

As for the Eastern front (Chinese threat) vis a vis Aerial threats, the requirement is totally different. We need platforms that have greater ranges, and with powerful engines that can operate in rarefied atmosphere. The air is pretty thin on that border, and any engine's performance will degrade automatically due to limited oxygen.

We need aircrafts with Thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 or even more, to have successful operations there. In our current fleet only Mig 29 have that capacity, which is why IAF moved them to the border during and post 2020. We need refuellers along with fighter jets, given the conditions there.

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

242 - Su30 MKI std

261 SU30 Mki

132 - Mig21 Bis std supposed to be phased out by 2025

50+

To be honest our Airforce itself is geared up mostly for Pakistan, and we never planned for anything towards China.
As for the Eastern front (Chinese threat) vis a vis Aerial threats, the requirement is totally different. We need platforms that have greater ranges, and with powerful engines that can operate in rarefied atmosphere. The air is pretty thin on that border, and any engine's performance will degrade automatically due to limited oxygen.

We need aircrafts with Thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 or even more, to have successful operations there. In our current fleet only Mig 29 have that capacity, which is why IAF moved them to the border during and post 2020. We need refuellers along with fighter jets, given the conditions there.

All PLAAF airfields, except Nyingchi and Taxkorgan, are situated at altitudes well above 10,000 feet. What military utility they offer to PLAAF is questionable since planes taking off from such altitudes can only carry a fraction of their full load. The case is at such high altitudes you need a minimum speed to maintain enough lift to not stall. Maneuvers and other things require even higher relative speed to the wing.

So, the higher the altitude, thinner the air, greater the stall speed. Now, the problem does not end here. Due to the high variability of temperature throughout the day (freezing cold at night and ~20 deg. in day), combined with humidity conditions, the density of air keeps on changing dynamically, which cause erratic lift patterns, especially for aircraft with a low aerofoil (fighter jets).

To water down what I wrote above, a fighter jet will be able to take off with a long runway run in morning and evening timeframes, at noon, it might overshoot the runaway with the same payload. Due to high actual air speed at an altitude corresponding to the same indicated airspeed, landing and take-off runs are excessively long. For eight months in a year (September to April), PLAAF operations will be severely affected due to extremely low temperatures, icy strong surface winds, and extensive ice accumulation over the runway

Majority of the PLAAF airfields in Tibet are affected by extensive fog. Sustained day/night operations are virtually impossible.

Ah, did I mention higher take-off and landing speeds (required for high-altitude runaways) cause more wear-and-tear of landing gear and frequent tire bursts ?

 

[indushek]

261 SU30 Mki


50+


All PLAAF airfields, except Nyingchi and Taxkorgan, are situated at altitudes well above 10,000 feet. What military utility they offer to PLAAF is questionable since planes taking off from such altitudes can only carry a fraction of their full load. The case is at such high altitudes you need a minimum speed to maintain enough lift to not stall. Maneuvers and other things require even higher relative speed to the wing.

So, the higher the altitude, thinner the air, greater the stall speed. Now, the problem does not end here. Due to the high variability of temperature throughout the day (freezing cold at night and ~20 deg. in day), combined with humidity conditions, the density of air keeps on changing dynamically, which cause erratic lift patterns, especially for aircraft with a low aerofoil (fighter jets).

To water down what I wrote above, a fighter jet will be able to take off with a long runway run in morning and evening timeframes, at noon, it might overshoot the runaway with the same payload. Due to high actual air speed at an altitude corresponding to the same indicated airspeed, landing and take-off runs are excessively long. For eight months in a year (September to April), PLAAF operations will be severely affected due to extremely low temperatures, icy strong surface winds, and extensive ice accumulation over the runway

Majority of the PLAAF airfields in Tibet are affected by extensive fog. Sustained day/night operations are virtually impossible.

Ah, did I mention higher take-off and landing speeds (required for high-altitude runaways) cause more wear-and-tear of landing gear and frequent tire bursts ?
View attachment 948391

The 260 or 261 is open source number, IAF has lost aircraft due to various reasons bringing the actual number down to about 240 plus.

Well what you wrote above for Eastern side, is what I mentioned in much simpler terms. The problems you mention China will face, will be faced by us as well while operating. Chinese have large number aerial refueling platforms, while our guys are still working on it.

This means that we need to induct specialized platforms for this side, and add AWACS and Refuellers as well. LCA Mk1 or 2 won't be useful there.

 

[kaykay]

Actually we need to see our current feet composition, to see where they fit

242 - Su30 MKI std
132 - Mig21 Bis std supposed to be phased out by 2025
130 - Jaguar M/S std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
66 - Mig 29 UPG std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
45 - M2000H/I std start to retire from 2027 - 2028 - by 2035
36 - Rafale F3 std

132 aircrafts (Mig21) to be gone by 2025
130 + 66 +45 = 241 Aircrafts to be phased out 2035

If you notice Mig21/Jaguar/Mirage , these three are mostly for Pakistani threat.

To be honest our Airforce itself is geared up mostly for Pakistan, and we never planned for anything towards China.

So we do need 40 + 83 + 100 Mk1 or Mk1A plus 130 Mk2 to replace, Mig21/Jaguar/Mirage/Mig29 as quickly as possible to keep the 42 squadrons intended by IAF.

As for the Eastern front (Chinese threat) vis a vis Aerial threats, the requirement is totally different. We need platforms that have greater ranges, and with powerful engines that can operate in rarefied atmosphere. The air is pretty thin on that border, and any engine's performance will degrade automatically due to limited oxygen.

We need aircrafts with Thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 or even more, to have successful operations there. In our current fleet only Mig 29 have that capacity, which is why IAF moved them to the border during and post 2020. We need refuellers along with fighter jets, given the conditions there.

We have about 3 active Mig-21 squadrons only for now. All Bison standard. These will be replaced by first MK1A orders. Mirage and Mig-29s will only be replaced by MK2 as they are recently upgraded and can serve beyond 2035s. So is 3 Jaguar sqds which are upgraded with Darin-3 packages which includes EW suits, AESA radar, Asraam wvr etc.