IAF set to lose its fighting edge

[Great Sachin]

We still have 3 times more fighter planes than Pakistan.....why worry?

 

[tvsram1992]

China would induct 5g fighters by roughly the same time India would. whereas for pakistan it would take
atleast half a decade more.

I feel Su30s because of high RCS would be placed mostly against Pakistan after PAKFA arrives . Rafales would be supplementing China border . Although IAF plan may be different , they might interchange couple of squadrons between borders .

 

[harpoon]

We still have 3 times more fighter planes than Pakistan.....why worry?

The days of quantity winning over quality is long over.

 

[Su-11]

Any MiG-21 with a good radar, the EL/M-8222 jammer & BVR missiles can kill an F16 or J-10 as well.
But we cannot make MiG-21 an J-10 counterweight anyway.

Yes, but still MiG-21 has a small nose for only a small radar, it can only do so much. A Su-15 has no such constraints. With its radar, range, speed maneuverability it will kick asss of both JF-17 and Tejas side by side. Su-11 will have some difficulty but still it would be one hellva tough opponent.

 

[Gessler]

Thats funny.

But look at this way buddy - the Soviet Air Force had a larger fleet of
fighter aircraft than USAF. But who had the combat edge? Yes, USAF
with a smaller but more advanced high-end fleet retained the edge.

Also note in case of pakistan, India has not only qualitative but
also quantitative edge. against china, as of now we have qualitative
edge but lost out on the quantity, in the future however both forces
would be inducting equally large numbers of aircraft but IAF would still
retain the qualitative edge most of the time.

>> a projection <<

PLAAF -

1200 J-10s
250 J-11s
200 JH-7B
150 J-20
200 J-19

< 2000 >

IAF -

300 MKI
200 Rafale
220 LCA
250 PAK-FA
250 AMCA
135 Jaguar

< 1400 >

 

[explorer9]

We still have 3 times more fighter planes than Pakistan.....why worry?

kindly let me know your calculation methodology .......

 

[SpArK]

But look at this way buddy - the Soviet Air Force had a larger fleet of
fighter aircraft than USAF. But who had the combat edge? Yes, USAF
with a smaller but more advanced high-end fleet retained the edge.

Also note in case of pakistan, India has not only qualitative but
also quantitative edge. against china, as of now we have qualitative
edge but lost out on the quantity, in the future however both forces
would be inducting equally large numbers of aircraft but IAF would still
retain the qualitative edge most of the time.

>> a projection <<

PLAAF -

1200 J-10s
250 J-11s
200 JH-7B
150 J-20
200 J-19

< 2000 >

IAF -

300 MKI
200 Rafale
220 LCA
250 PAK-FA
250 AMCA
135 Jaguar

< 1400 >

We are talking about current scenarios not the PROJECTION>

 

[tvsram1992]

Enemies does nt need 5th Gen to attack on a depleted force, even 3rd gen might do.
Issues with Mig-21, Mirages grounded and waiting upgrades, Jaguar,Mig-27s not fully fit, , Mig29s travelling to and fro for upgrades, left with MKI's which are getting inducted and the vintage "expected to upgrade in near future " ones.
There was this interim offer of France earlier on transferring 40 or something fighter as stop gap arrangement until induction.
All have forgotten it and MoD didt ask for it as a bargain chip. Bad.
France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF

I did say that
But Upgraded Mirages would better fill the gap . IAF loves Mirages so much the reason why they are being upgraded . Any source for Mirages grounded ? I saw them flying at Dundigal Air base . Not all Mig29s go for upgrades at a time . They will go batch wise . So no problem with Mig29s and Mirages . Jaguars,,Mig27/Mig21 may be crap for us but replacing them asap is an excellent idea . Those were meant to be replaced by AMCA/LCA .

 

[SpArK]

I did say that
But Upgraded Mirages would better fill the gap . IAF loves Mirages so much the reason why they are being upgraded . Any source for Mirages grounded ? I saw them flying at Dundigal Air base . Not all Mig29s go for upgrades at a time . They will go batch wise . So no problem with Mig29s and Mirages . Jaguars,,Mig27/Mig21 may be crap for us but replacing them asap is an excellent idea . Those were meant to be replaced by AMCA/LCA .

Mirages are waiting missiles and upgrades , yes its still combat worthy than anything else. But buying more to serve how long??

I am surprised no one talked about 40 odd fighters France offered as interim. It will help plugging the shortage, would do wonders in training and getting combat hours which are precious.

Anyway we are not buying Mirages if any second hand available from scrapyard of France or the newer ones on sale from UAE, that is for sure.

 

[DrSomnath999]

i remember the avenger's film dialogue when the villain asked TONY hawk (iron man) we have a huge army WTF does u have ?? he replied we have HULK.

now the same situation here one may ask the same thing here WTF u have ??? we would say we have RAFALE

 

[Great Sachin]

kindly let me know your calculation methodology .......

India has around 300 4th generation planes...PAF have around 110.

 

[explorer9]

India has around 300 4th generation planes...PAF have around 110.

how many MKI'S we have as of now or any other 4th gen in our inventory that i don't know?

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is a relatively short term predicament the IAF finds itself in. An analysis of the USAF would show they too are in a similar position ie large number of older generation a/c coming to the end of their usable life with next gen replacements not as close to induction as one would hope for. Right now it could be said the issues are the Mig-21s,Mig-27 and to some extent the Jaguars (although a third of these are being given an extensive UPG that will allow them to be relevant for some time to come) coming to the end of their usable lives (of course Mig-21s exceeded this some time ago) and replacements like the MKI (issues in this case have been rectified recently) MMRCA, LCA and PAK-FA/FGFA coming online at too slow a pace. Additionally the M2k and Mig-29 are being geiven pretty extensive upgrades so they will remain credible for some time to come. The fact is most air forces experience this sort of situation at some point in their lives and that is what the IAF is feeling now. A combination of unkept promises, resource restrictions and lack of long term planning has resulted in this. However it has to be said that after 2025, or there abouts, the IAF is going to rapidly reduce its fleet's average age life but rapidly increase its capability. This also goes for the IAF fleet as a whole (non-fighters) most of the equipment in use today ie An-32,Avro,Il-76,IL-78MKI, Cheetah,Chetak and M-8/17(non-V5 standard) will not be in use come 2020 so the entire IAF flying fleet will be considerably younger and more able come 2020 and later. We are sort of in the calm before the storm because the IAF is very much about to enter into a "golden age" where it will be well and truly dominent in the region, bar none.



+I would like to say measuring an air force by SQD strength is VERY outdated as today it is not about numbers but technology so the fact that today the a/c that will be replacing obsolete a/c in the IAF are far,FAR more capable than whatever has gone before it counts for a lot. So although there might be a 1-1 replacement the added capability to the IAF and the nation as a whole is dramatically more.So the IAF is getting quantity AND quality, something India's neighbors can't really say. Look at what the IAF is doing, they are replacing 3.5 gen Mig-21s with 4.5++ "Super MKI" and Rafales and for anybody that is remarkable. Not to mention the fact the IAF is simultaneously procuring technology to compliment their fighter arm like AWACs and dedicated satellites to offer a much more lethal capabilty.

 

[tvsram1992]

Mirages are waiting missiles and upgrades , yes its still combat worthy than anything else. But buying more to serve how long??
I am surprised no one talked about 40 odd fighters France offered as interim. It will help plugging the shortage, would do wonders in training and getting combat hours which are precious.
Anyway we are not buying Mirages if any second hand available from scrapyard of France or the newer ones on sale from UAE, that is for sure.

10-20 years . What about the doubling of/additional MRCA? I think the 40 speed delivery will be considered if the no. is greater than 126 . Let one MP raises the diminishing of squads and if it becomes hell in parliament as you said it will be good for IAF . Additinal Rafale/Su30 will be ordered .

 

[SEAL]

Rafale was selected even before Gen Singh's letter.


I heard if agreement is signed in this FY, first batch of Rafale will come by 2015. Anton already said PAKFA will only come by 2019, if not more considering how complex these aircrafts have become..

Antony said PAK-FA will get certification in 2019 they will come by 2023-24.