IAF’s Possible Alternatives to the Rafale Deal

[MilSpec]

To all Indian defence enthusiasts:
Rafale has been selected for MMRCA, there will be no change in that, the only bone in the contention will be fly away platforms produced in DB, they will increase to twice thier numbers (speculation)

My nostradamus-ish predictions for IAF (which @sancho might disagree to)

rafale number will remain between 126- 150 and wont go to 180/200 mark

SU30 numbers will actually increase from 270+ to 335+ with additional orderbook for Super SU 30 (Irkut make), 2nd tranche of MKI upgrade will get Zhuk Aesa and third tranche will get Irbis Aesa radar along with RVV SD/SD

FGFA PMF will enter production only after 2018

LCA mk2 will enter production only after MMRCA is set in stone.

 

[GURU DUTT]

LCA not on time, Mig's not equipped during kargil etc points towards the elephant in the room - Comedy of mis management of the defence procurement program by IAF.

Mig's not equipped during Kargil was not some inherent flaw in the mig's , Although bulk of recce was done with mig 27's, (and another mig platform which doesn't needs to be discussed), Air superiority cover provided by mig 29 was unparalleled btw hence seems like Migs did their jobs well . The truth remains, IAF delayed DARE upgrades (Mig27M) and integration of Litening for both jaguars and Mig 27M's which led to such situation to begin with.

MMRCA is fuelled not by delay in LCA but with your's and mine tax goldmine. I would argue IAF or at least certain sections in IAF is causing delays in LCA too. Certain sections in the south block, HAL, MoD, IAF, all are complicit in this.

Mig 35 or the envisaged Mig 35MKI could have been exactly what Su30MKI did for IAF, but it wasn't given a chance, certain sections wanted the best and not the jugaad (MKI). We all know most of the paper specs for all the a/c's in the competition and there were some significant shortfalls for Mig35 (which could have been worked on) , but this is first hand from the CTP who was at the trials for mig 29OVT (Mig 35), "in straight dogfight OVT beats everything, french and the british crews couldn't believe their eyes what they were seeing when the OVT was flying ".

btw for kargil, IAF was also being cheap, one of the group captains refused letting use tv guided russain missile as "too expensive"...
Next as far as russian alternatives are concerned, the MKI is completely capable of taking on similar missions, with "russian" and "Indian" armament.


The context of alternative to russian armament has always bewildered me especially when 90% of your weapon systems are russian or russian derivative. It is only the russains who have allowed you to use western missiles on our MKI and russian missiles qualified on french systems. Ask the pakistani members here if US lets them use the SD10 from their f16 or allows AMRAAM on JF17... Dependability on russia as an military ally has been a boon for Indian forces...

Meteor has been hailed as the next best thing to sliced bread, but as far as I know, wait for a huge surprise by end of 2014, soon IAF will be scrambling to accommodate non-french missile on the rafale.

You nailed it Bro count have said better...Thanks Again

now the thing is IAF is now confused as they wished the deal would have been signed within a couple of months after they chose the winner of MMRCA program but things dint went there way and now it seems too late as chinese just might have there 5th Gen fighter deployed on owr north eastern sector when the first Rafale comes to India even if the deal is signed before the results of next years general elcetion

and since french are also getting a bit too greedy of late things just might work owt for so called MIG 35-MKI /SU 35-MKI or better still IAF Might Go for F18 as both Russia and USA are slugging owt full hog for the fighter pie now as they are sensing serious reservations in MOD & IAF top brass against french after scorpene & very expensive M2k upgrade deal


it will be in IAF & Indias best interest to go for a mix order 80( MIG 35) +100 ( F-18 F) with a mix of russian & Israeli/US wepons & avionicks as a possible Alternative to Rafale

 

[Dillinger]

To all Indian defence enthusiasts:
Rafale has been selected for MMRCA, there will be no change in that, the only bone in the contention will be fly away platforms produced in DB, they will increase to twice thier numbers (speculation)

My nostradamus-ish predictions for IAF (which @sancho might disagree to)

rafale number will remain between 126- 150 and wont go to 180/200 mark

SU30 numbers will actually increase from 270+ to 335+ with additional orderbook for Super SU 30 (Irkut make), 2nd tranche of MKI upgrade will get Zhuk Aesa and third tranche will get Irbis Aesa radar along with RVV SD/SD

FGFA PMF will enter production only after 2018

LCA mk2 will enter production only after MMRCA is set in stone.

Quite right.

The Rafale's off the shelf component is going to increase. On the LCA Mk.2 the less said the better, although the good thing is that the FGFA will provide the skilled manpower and experience that HAL should have had in the first place if ADA hadn't been propped up.

 

[rockstarIN]

Money is not the issue for the problems of LCA, so not buying MMRCA, won't let LCA arrive earlier or make it more capable. In fact, the only reason for MMRCA is, that LCA development is so delayed, so we have to spend money because of LCA, not besides LCA.
Also, MKIs are heavy class and Russian, which makes it expensive and limited in weapons and systems. That's one reason why the Mig 35 was not chosen either, because it will use the same weapons that the MKI uses and doesn't offer IAF an alternative, but Kargil showed us, that overdepenence on Russian stuff only, isn't a good way. That's why IAF prefered additional, 2nd hand, or new M2Ks over the decades, instead of more Migs.

Bro, whatever the Rafale weapons, there is an equal powerful alternative in MKI. So how there is a limitation?

 

[rockstarIN]

LCA not on time, Mig's not equipped during kargil etc points towards the elephant in the room - Comedy of mis management of the defence procurement program by IAF.

Mig's not equipped during Kargil was not some inherent flaw in the mig's , Although bulk of recce was done with mig 27's, (and another mig platform which doesn't needs to be discussed), Air superiority cover provided by mig 29 was unparalleled btw hence seems like Migs did their jobs well . The truth remains, IAF delayed DARE upgrades (Mig27M) and integration of Litening for both jaguars and Mig 27M's which led to such situation to begin with.

MMRCA is fuelled not by delay in LCA but with your's and mine tax goldmine. I would argue IAF or at least certain sections in IAF is causing delays in LCA too. Certain sections in the south block, HAL, MoD, IAF, all are complicit in this.

Mig 35 or the envisaged Mig 35MKI could have been exactly what Su30MKI did for IAF, but it wasn't given a chance, certain sections wanted the best and not the jugaad (MKI). We all know most of the paper specs for all the a/c's in the competition and there were some significant shortfalls for Mig35 (which could have been worked on) , but this is first hand from the CTP who was at the trials for mig 29OVT (Mig 35), "in straight dogfight OVT beats everything, french and the british crews couldn't believe their eyes what they were seeing when the OVT was flying ".

btw for kargil, IAF was also being cheap, one of the group captains refused letting use tv guided russain missile as "too expensive"...
Next as far as russian alternatives are concerned, the MKI is completely capable of taking on similar missions, with "russian" and "Indian" armament.


The context of alternative to russian armament has always bewildered me especially when 90% of your weapon systems are russian or russian derivative. It is only the russains who have allowed you to use western missiles on our MKI and russian missiles qualified on french systems. Ask the pakistani members here if US lets them use the SD10 from their f16 or allows AMRAAM on JF17... Dependability on russia as an military ally has been a boon for Indian forces...

Meteor has been hailed as the next best thing to sliced bread, but as far as I know, wait for a huge surprise by end of 2014, soon IAF will be scrambling to accommodate non-french missile on the rafale.

1. Will French allow MKIsation of Rafale?
2. Is that missile the ramjet version of Astra?

 

[shree835]

iaf is hopeless...

most of its planes are junk..and aren't getting replaced in future.

PAF is farrrrr ahead of game in this regard.

Brand new squadrons of 4th generation JF-17s are replacing F-7s of PAF, and remember, F-7s are no way near as pathetic as iaf's flying coffin.

This deal is taking soooo long, too.

PAF would finalize its deal for J-10B after iaf finalizes its.

I feel sad for indians....lol

FYI...Here we are not discussing about CHINA MAAL.

 

[GURU DUTT]

1. Will French allow MKIsation of Rafale?
2. Is that missile the ramjet version of Astra?

nor will french allow the MKIsation of Rafale neither will let IAF put wepons from different sources other than french on rafale not even the pods

as for ramjet version or astra it will take some time

 

[shree835]

He does not represent Pakistan but since you are close to Pakistani rulers, you know more about the coming decisions of our politicians.

In case of JF-17 it exceeds bench marks set by PAF and it is a sanction free aircraft.... see sancho's post about IAF's thinking about over reliability on Russian SU27.

India have no choice.... it has to get Raffle, by hook or by crook.

Reason 1- PAF in its evaluation, has approved 3 foreign a/c a- F-16 b-Grippen c-rafale.
Indians always follow where PAF leave, learn to live with it.
Even your re-discovered love for mirrage and recent upgrades is learning from PAF, through various channels.

ChhiCha Chutkule Na Sunao.... Fact is ...You cannot GET Rafale or Grippen coz there IS issue with money ... French were not ready to give you so called SOFT Loan that CHINI gives you... Even your country were not having enough AID amount to pay the bill.... So your PAF person went to FRANCE and clicked some photograph in front of Rafale and came back to Pakistan....This is the reason behind PAF using mighty Metal plane JF-17....and Planing for another J.

 

[GURU DUTT]

ChhiCha Chutkule Na Sunao.... Fact is ...You cannot GET Rafale or Grippen coz there IS issue with money ... French were not ready to give you so called SOFT Loan that CHINI gives you... Even your country were not having enough AID amount to pay the bill.... So your PAF person went to FRANCE and clicked some photograph in front of Rafale and came back to Pakistan....This is the reason behind PAF using mighty Metal plane JF-17....and Planing for another J.

bhai wo suna hai na billi ke khwaabon me .............

PAF knows that they are not getting any JKLMNO............series planes till chinese are finished with testing them and equipping there PLAAF with least minnimum numbers till thwen all is song and dance too keep Pakistani awaam dreaming about the might of PAF

hard fact is china also is getting the flu of "no money no honey"and within couple of years there might not be no soft loans at all it will be interesting what supa dupa fighter PAF comes up to counter IAF

 

[nomi007]

last option will be

sabar karein ge

 

[GURU DUTT]

last option will be

sabar karein ge

no hum to

Maston Ka Jhund New Full Song Lyric Video feat. Farhan A... - YouTube

wo suna hai na "jinke ghar dane unke kamle bhi sayane "

 

[IND151]

There are sources saying the deal will be signed in march 2014

And the 20 billion dollar amount will be spread over 13 years.

 

[akand bharat]

last option will be

sabar karein ge

126 Rafale fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) by March 2014, an Indian air force official said on Thursday, after the deal had been held up by differences over local manufacturing.

New Delhi picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a bidding contest against Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, made by a consortium involving EADS (EAD.PA), Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) and BAE Systems (BAES.L).

But there were differences over the role of India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in manufacturing the jets.

Air Marshal S. Sukumar, deputy chief of air staff, told an aerospace conference the deal would be signed within the current financial year, according to a statement issued by conference organiser, the Confederation of Indian Industry.

Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets and would manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics will be its lead partner.

Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the ability of the local partner to make such a sophisticated fighter. Hindustan Aeronautics has been developing a light combat aircraft since the early 1980s with no success so far.

A spokesman for Dassault declined to comment. The French company is still hoping to finalise the deal by the end of the 2013.

India's government wants to encourage Indian companies to partner with foreign suppliers to reduce its reliance on imports and boost a domestic defence industry that is dominated by underperforming public sector companies.

A separate tender to buy and build 56 military transport planes at an estimated cost of 119 billion rupees has been extended by two months, Sukumar also said. The Defence Ministry launched the tender in May to replace an ageing fleet of Avro jets.

The ministry had originally said the transport planes deal must be struck between a foreign supplier and an Indian private company. However, Heavy Industries Minister Praful Patel said last week that public-sector firms already making products for the armed forces should have been allowed to take part in the bidding.

The Defence Ministry has said it will look into Patel's complaint, potentially delaying the tender. Many of India's foreign arms purchases run into long delays because of accusations of corruption and bureaucratic complications.

(Editing by Sanjeev Miglani and David Holmes)

 

[IND151]

LCA not on time, Mig's not equipped during kargil etc points towards the elephant in the room - Comedy of mis management of the defence procurement program by IAF.

Mig's not equipped during Kargil was not some inherent flaw in the mig's , Although bulk of recce was done with mig 27's, (and another mig platform which doesn't needs to be discussed), Air superiority cover provided by mig 29 was unparalleled btw hence seems like Migs did their jobs well . The truth remains, IAF delayed DARE upgrades (Mig27M) and integration of Litening for both jaguars and Mig 27M's which led to such situation to begin with.

MMRCA is fuelled not by delay in LCA but with your's and mine tax goldmine. I would argue IAF or at least certain sections in IAF is causing delays in LCA too. Certain sections in the south block, HAL, MoD, IAF, all are complicit in this.

Mig 35 or the envisaged Mig 35MKI could have been exactly what Su30MKI did for IAF, but it wasn't given a chance, certain sections wanted the best and not the jugaad (MKI). We all know most of the paper specs for all the a/c's in the competition and there were some significant shortfalls for Mig35 (which could have been worked on) , but this is first hand from the CTP who was at the trials for mig 29OVT (Mig 35), "in straight dogfight OVT beats everything, french and the british crews couldn't believe their eyes what they were seeing when the OVT was flying ".

btw for kargil, IAF was also being cheap, one of the group captains refused letting use tv guided russain missile as "too expensive"...
Next as far as russian alternatives are concerned, the MKI is completely capable of taking on similar missions, with "russian" and "Indian" armament.


The context of alternative to russian armament has always bewildered me especially when 90% of your weapon systems are russian or russian derivative. It is only the russains who have allowed you to use western missiles on our MKI and russian missiles qualified on french systems. Ask the pakistani members here if US lets them use the SD10 from their f16 or allows AMRAAM on JF17... Dependability on russia as an military ally has been a boon for Indian forces...

Meteor has been hailed as the next best thing to sliced bread, but as far as I know, wait for a huge surprise by end of 2014, soon IAF will be scrambling to accommodate non-french missile on the rafale.

Kindly provide link for the claim

 

[AUz]

FYI...Here we are not discussing about CHINA MAAL.

Funny to see your frustrations..

JF-17 is superior to over-whelming majority of the planes that your sh!tty air force flies...

No wonder Pakistan Air Force literally 'banged' indian shitty air force in previous wars...