IAF’s Possible Alternatives to the Rafale Deal

[Dash]

Wrong, if at all only the EF could be considered as an alternative, since it's the only other fighter that passed the technical evaluations (however it did that?), so no other fighter could be considered again.



No, the MMRCA was needed mainly for 2 reasons. 1 because LCA is delayed, so that can't be an alternative to MMRCA again. Secondly, to have a capable alternative to the Russian fighters, mainly the Su 30, to not to be overdependent. That rules out more MKIs, or further extention of unreliable and less capable Migs too.




Doesn't make sense, because not a lack of funding is the problem for the delays in the LCA program, but development failures of core techs. Similarly, it's not money that holds up FGFA development, but slow decision making on our side, as well as not much focus on FGFA from Russian side.

Welcome back Bro
@Topic.
There is no alternative for Rafale. Its the only fighter today which has a growth potential in coming years. Anything else would just be a stop gap check and a total waste of money...We have come too far in this.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Rafale as MMRCA and the deal will not be cancelled if congress comes into power(before elections congress wont take risk)

if NaMo comes to power then bye bye rafale its Mass production of LCA MK2 + Super sukois all the way + we could see intro of F18 super bug or MIG 35 with latest goodies aswell in the IAF & IN(but that idea is too faint)

if thrid front comes to power then it will be free for all ...all over again & this time who ever gives the best kick backs will clinch the deal


any way if ever this deal is cancelled as per current requirement IAF will Order at least 100 more Super sukois & will have to give go ahead to 100+ LCA MK2

FGFA/PAKFA will onli start coming after 2020 and that too is doubtfull

 

[sancho]

if NaMo comes to power then bye bye rafale its Mass production of LCA MK2

He can't mass produce something that is not developed, especially since not even MK1 is ready now.

 

[AUz]

iaf is hopeless...

most of its planes are junk..and aren't getting replaced in future.

PAF is farrrrr ahead of game in this regard.

Brand new squadrons of 4th generation JF-17s are replacing F-7s of PAF, and remember, F-7s are no way near as pathetic as iaf's flying coffin.

This deal is taking soooo long, too.

PAF would finalize its deal for J-10B after iaf finalizes its.

I feel sad for indians....lol

 

[Janmejay]

yeah but first you need to beg more from imf. i feel sad for pakistanis.... lol.

 

[sancho]

yeah but first you need to beg more from imf. i feel sad for pakistanis.... lol.

Welcome to PDF, but don't fall for silly trolling! Just ignore it and stick to the topic, he is ignoring the facts of around 200 Su 30s, or that 120 M2Ks and Mig 29s getting upgraded as well.

 

[GURU DUTT]

He can't mass produce something that is not developed, especially since not even MK1 is ready now.

agreed Sir ....but instead we can work on LCA & Go for increasing the number of SU 30 MKI/Super sukois with better engines , latest ASEA & other stuff while in time boost much required money into LCA MK2 program cause no one will give there hard learned secrets to us and we can never repalicate what chinese do in this situation

iaf is hopeless...

most of its planes are junk..and aren't getting replaced in future.

PAF is farrrrr ahead of game in this regard.

Brand new squadrons of 4th generation JF-17s are replacing F-7s of PAF, and remember, F-7s are no way near as pathetic as iaf's flying coffin.

This deal is taking soooo long, too.

PAF would finalize its deal for J-10B after iaf finalizes its.

I feel sad for indians....lol

he he he he he look who are making fun of IAF when they dont have money to buy any thing else than JF-17 all else like J10B -CDXYZ are pipe dreams until they have $$$$$$$$$$$


perfect case of "sour grapes"............................

 

[untitled]

Well in my personal opinion the only two real contenders for the MMRCA deal were the MiG-35 and the Rafale.

Anyway the Rafale deal is likely to go thru

 

[GURU DUTT]

Well I think the only two real contenders for the MMRCA deal were the MiG-35 and the Rafale.
The Rafale deal is likely to go thru

MIG 35 can come thru wild card entry to please russians & just might have Israeli EW suits & other stuff like MKI while rafale is not going thru that easy now cause GOI & MOD will not risk it before the results of next years general elections even then by that time if russians are ready to give/promise FGFA by 2018 then its bye bye to rafale as owtside france and maybe ..just maybe india no other nation is ready to bye such expensive platform just because of 'SPECTRA' which in time many will offer similar tech as MLU

 

[Dash]

MIG 35 can come thru wild card entry to please russians & just might have Israeli EW suits & other stuff like MKI while rafale is not going thru that easy now cause GOI & MOD will not risk it before the results of next years general elections even then by that time if russians are ready to give/promise FGFA by 2018 then its bye bye to rafale as owtside france and maybe ..just maybe india no other nation is ready to bye such expensive platform just because of 'SPECTRA' which in time many will offer similar tech as MLU

Bro, its not just spectra....please dont be in the misconception. IAF didnt just select these planes based on avionics. They have passed the technical parameters perfectly!..+ Even though French are expensive but they are reliablle too, especially why Russian fighters from MIG are not welcome here.

Imagine Meteore, the further developed M88 engine, MBDA scalp, even the AESA radar has a growth potential.
And last but not the least. we need to a buy a plane which is currently being used by an AF and not going to retire in some 5-6 years. French have put their heart and soul to this plane and keep building this..Its going to be a very fine bird with MLUs in future.

Tell me which other plane has this backing from the producer.

 

[BATMAN]

agreed Sir ....but instead we can work on LCA & Go for increasing the number of SU 30 MKI/Super sukois with better engines , latest ASEA & other stuff while in time boost much required money into LCA MK2 program cause no one will give there hard learned secrets to us and we can never repalicate what chinese do in this situation



he he he he he look who are making fun of IAF when they dont have money to buy any thing else than JF-17 all else like J10B -CDXYZ are pipe dreams until they have $$$$$$$$$$$


perfect case of "sour grapes"............................

He does not represent Pakistan but since you are close to Pakistani rulers, you know more about the coming decisions of our politicians.

In case of JF-17 it exceeds bench marks set by PAF and it is a sanction free aircraft.... see sancho's post about IAF's thinking about over reliability on Russian SU27.

India have no choice.... it has to get Raffle, by hook or by crook.

Reason 1- PAF in its evaluation, has approved 3 foreign a/c a- F-16 b-Grippen c-rafale.
Indians always follow where PAF leave, learn to live with it.
Even your re-discovered love for mirrage and recent upgrades is learning from PAF, through various channels.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Bro, its not just spectra....please dont be in the misconception. IAF didnt just select these planes based on avionics. They have passed the technical parameters perfectly!..+ Even though French are expensive but they are reliablle too, especially why Russian fighters from MIG are not welcome here.

Imagine Meteore, the further developed M88 engine, MBDA scalp, even the AESA radar has a growth potential.
And last but not the least. we need to a buy a plane which is currently being used by an AF and not going to retire in some 5-6 years. French have put their heart and soul to this plane and keep building this..Its going to be a very fine bird with MLUs in future.

Tell me which other plane has this backing from the producer.

well all you say is right too buddy but the point is when we are getting the 5th Gen FGFA almost at the same time as Rafale what is the logick to go for a 4.5+ egn plane at the same time ????

i guess IAF are now so confoused that it is ready to buy anything....to me buying F18 E/F makes more sense as US wepons aere way much prooven and potent than french could ever imagine + USA is not a fool it knows that if they get this deal they could very well manouver indian policy against china by giving indians extra goodies we indians being so called "good boys" will eventually complay


i would be surprised if that dosent happens in future and IAF ...just as a last chnace if rafale deal dosent gows thru before elections just might go for latest Gen F18 + Latest wepons , EW suits & ASEA Radar

 

[GURU DUTT]

He does not represent Pakistan but since you are close to Pakistani rulers, you know more about the coming decisions of our politicians.

In case of JF-17 it exceeds bench marks set by PAF and it is a sanction free aircraft.... see sancho's post about IAF's thinking about over reliability on Russian SU27.

India have no choice.... it has to get Raffle, by hook or by crook.

Reason 1- PAF in its evaluation, has approved 3 foreign a/c a- F-16 b-Grippen c-rafale.
Indians always follow where PAF leave, learn to live with it.
Even your re-discovered love for mirrage and recent upgrades is learning from PAF, through various channels.

Good after noon sirji ...kem cho ..maja ma cho naa..60 cho na


any way IAF is confused as they took way way more time to select MMRCA now in deu time Russians and chinese came up with 5th gen planes which changed every thing specially chinese threat changed it they are now confused weather to go for rafale or 5th gen russian stuff which is almost same price off the shelf and in after sales service

they know rafales wont be able to withstand chinese attack spearheaded by J31 & J20 backed by copies of Su 27 so they now want to manouver owt of the rafale deal because sensing a kill french as usual are getting way to much greedy and going back on there earlier promises about TOT (which was never there intention..ps scoprpenes & M2K uprds)

now USA wants to control china on the east it is fanning the fire by going full hog in appeasing vietnam and giving Japnese a free hand in there defense buildup , south koreans & taiwanese have already taking good care of there defences aginst china now to corner china from its southren border Americans want to rearm India as it is a very big potential asset for them and want Iran also to come in its fold

so the point is looking at the geopolitical and defence situation going fo US wepons (F 18)will be the most potent and cheapest (in the long run) for IAF and now since USA is ready to "do more" to appease IAF & Babudom things might turn owt very diferrent than pakistanies ever imagined

 

[sancho]

agreed Sir ....but instead we can work on LCA & Go for increasing the number of SU 30 MKI/Super sukois with better engines , latest ASEA & other stuff while in time boost much required money into LCA MK2 program cause no one will give there hard learned secrets to us and we can never repalicate what chinese do in this situation

Money is not the issue for the problems of LCA, so not buying MMRCA, won't let LCA arrive earlier or make it more capable. In fact, the only reason for MMRCA is, that LCA development is so delayed, so we have to spend money because of LCA, not besides LCA.
Also, MKIs are heavy class and Russian, which makes it expensive and limited in weapons and systems. That's one reason why the Mig 35 was not chosen either, because it will use the same weapons that the MKI uses and doesn't offer IAF an alternative, but Kargil showed us, that overdepenence on Russian stuff only, isn't a good way. That's why IAF prefered additional, 2nd hand, or new M2Ks over the decades, instead of more Migs.

 

[MilSpec]

Money is not the issue for the problems of LCA, so not buying MMRCA, won't let LCA arrive earlier or make it more capable. In fact, the only reason for MMRCA is, that LCA development is so delayed, so we have to spend money because of LCA, not besides LCA.
Also, MKIs are heavy class and Russian, which makes it expensive and limited in weapons and systems. That's one reason why the Mig 35 was not chosen either, because it will use the same weapons that the MKI uses and doesn't offer IAF an alternative, but Kargil showed us, that overdepenence on Russian stuff only, isn't a good way. That's why IAF prefered additional, 2nd hand, or new M2Ks over the decades, instead of more Migs.

LCA not on time, Mig's not equipped during kargil etc points towards the elephant in the room - Comedy of mis management of the defence procurement program by IAF.

Mig's not equipped during Kargil was not some inherent flaw in the mig's , Although bulk of recce was done with mig 27's, (and another mig platform which doesn't needs to be discussed), Air superiority cover provided by mig 29 was unparalleled btw hence seems like Migs did their jobs well . The truth remains, IAF delayed DARE upgrades (Mig27M) and integration of Litening for both jaguars and Mig 27M's which led to such situation to begin with.

MMRCA is fuelled not by delay in LCA but with your's and mine tax goldmine. I would argue IAF or at least certain sections in IAF is causing delays in LCA too. Certain sections in the south block, HAL, MoD, IAF, all are complicit in this.

Mig 35 or the envisaged Mig 35MKI could have been exactly what Su30MKI did for IAF, but it wasn't given a chance, certain sections wanted the best and not the jugaad (MKI). We all know most of the paper specs for all the a/c's in the competition and there were some significant shortfalls for Mig35 (which could have been worked on) , but this is first hand from the CTP who was at the trials for mig 29OVT (Mig 35), "in straight dogfight OVT beats everything, french and the british crews couldn't believe their eyes what they were seeing when the OVT was flying ".

btw for kargil, IAF was also being cheap, one of the group captains refused letting use tv guided russain missile as "too expensive"...
Next as far as russian alternatives are concerned, the MKI is completely capable of taking on similar missions, with "russian" and "Indian" armament.


The context of alternative to russian armament has always bewildered me especially when 90% of your weapon systems are russian or russian derivative. It is only the russains who have allowed you to use western missiles on our MKI and russian missiles qualified on french systems. Ask the pakistani members here if US lets them use the SD10 from their f16 or allows AMRAAM on JF17... Dependability on russia as an military ally has been a boon for Indian forces...

Meteor has been hailed as the next best thing to sliced bread, but as far as I know, wait for a huge surprise by end of 2014, soon IAF will be scrambling to accommodate non-french missile on the rafale.