IAF losing edge over PAF:Military Intelligence.

[blackops]

those idiots who think india started all the wars read your history properly from foreign sources not the history provided in your tampered books well to start with here is your own air marshal

 

[Storm Force]

Santro.

With respect

I don,t understand THE JINGOISM ie where and why.

IF i have made something up OR its wrong plz say.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

To the J10 fan boy

Lower RCS does not make a better fighter.

IAF already fields fighters with lower RCS then SU30MKI ie mirage 2000 & new MKG29K.

yet the indians have incresed the SU30MKI order twice from 190 to 230 to 272.

IF there where massive deficences in MKI then believe India has access to any combat fighter in the world be it USA EUROPE OR RUSSIA and the money $$$$ TO BUY THEM.

IN OTHER WORDS SU30mki is better overall then the other options be it mirage2000, f16, mig29 etc.

" how many orders for j10 so far frm overseas " = NIL

END OF ARGUMENT

To all Indian fanboys of the MKI.

reduced RCS and more powerful AESA radars are critical components of a better fighter.

IAF Mirages and Mig 29s have smaller RCS but they are still larger than the J 10B. They also do not have AESA radar or hidden engine blades.

I don't care what the IAF does. They are imbeciles.

You can't buy F 22s. You are also crap at arguments.

Indians keep buying MKIs because they are not US sanctionable.

How much orders have indian weapons ever received?

End of argument.

 

[my name is arya]

To all Indian fanboys of the MKI.

reduced RCS and more powerful AESA radars are critical components of a better fighter.

IAF Mirages and Mig 29s have smaller RCS but they are still larger than the J 10B. They also do not have AESA radar or hidden engine blades.

I don't care what the IAF does. They are imbeciles.

You can't buy F 22s. You are also crap at arguments.

Indians keep buying MKIs because they are not US sanctionable.

How much orders have indian weapons ever received?

End of argument.

well dont you know IN can f=go for f35 , i hope you must be know MMRCA from where rafale will be winner

pakfa i dont need to tell you and at last brother may be china is little stronger but not that much as you are thinking

 

[jha]

You take the good things from the MKI and completely ignore its shortcomings like its PESA radar, enormous RCS, and etc. You also discount the opponent aircrafts advantage like, AESA, lesser RCS, and IRST

Guess, you should study a little bit more about Radars.. A mature PESA radar can very easily outperform a not matured AESA radar..
If you are talking about Range then you should know that Range of PESA and AESA radar of simlar power output are almost same. And this totally negates your theory that J-10B will have an AESA radar which will outperform BARS in range.In fact BARS WILL have greater range than any radar on J-10B just because of this. You should also know the fact that earlier versions of N101M was able to track a F-16 target at the range of 140 -160 Km. The BARS currently being used is an upgraded one.
BTW in the nestbupgrade of MKI - Radar will be changed to have AESA technology since it will have an advantage of LPI.

Coming to lesser RCS: Unless your aircraft is LO/VLO , you dont have any advantage in modern air warfare if the adversary is flying. I dont think J-10B is a LO/VLO aircraft.

Regarding IRST :: This is a hugely misunderstood term which newbies often through around to prove that a particular aircraft is better than the other one. I think nobody with a decent understanding thinks suddendly IRST will replace the great variety of sensors already in place and in development. There is a finite array of signals in waveform which lend themselves to detection and communication. The greater the spectrums you can skillfully manipulate, interpretate, share and combine the more difficult is it to evade detection. BTW there are some talks about integration of OLS in next upgrade..


This is probably first time i have contributed in a v/s war..I dont like to post and going by your previous record you also seem to be a sensible poster. We should leave this measuring contest to Fanboys..

 

[tanlixiang28776]

PLAAF does not have a working AESA radar.

Infact the Radars they have are clones of the RUSSIAN ZHUK ME.

The chinerase have been starved of western technology for decades so they copy Russian hardware. IN THE MAIN.

BESIDES taxlin you are taking this thread to ANOTHER DIRECTION

WE ARE TALKING PAF not PLAAF or their AESA TECHNOLOGY

What the hell is this thing then?

Rest of your argument is what Indians have to resort to when they have nothing else. Fail

As for PLAAF technology you are proud to use RAF technology

 

[SQ8]

Santro.

With respect

I don,t understand THE JINGOISM ie where and why.

IF i have made something up OR its wrong plz say.

Yes.
one liners all the time..
That have been debunked.. again.. and again.

Try posting like Rockstar .. he loves his naton.. but he doesnt say something unless he is certain of it.
And knows how to agree to disagree..
Which is the policy I believe in.. instead of derailing the thread with the usual "blah blah".

You like bringing in wikipedia to show "facts".. all fine and dandy.
But then dont post it again and again to shove it down everybody's throat...
which on not just one occasion.. but many a times.. has led to a mod closing the thread due to poor quality.
And its not just you.. Ive seen Pakistani and Chinese members do it as well... being enthusiastic and calling the F-16 one of the best fighters in the world is fine..

But posting again and again..
F-16 is the BEST

F-16 is the BEST
F-16 is the BEST because Ten USAF pilots said so
F-16 is the BEST because Ten USAF pilots said so

F-16 is the BEST

Is downright irritating.. and causes many of those having an objective discussion to lose their cool..and then we have to dole out infractions.. close an otherwise normal thread.. and in my case..curse my own need for objectivity as a mod.

Coming in for one liners.. especially extremely low quality one liners..
derails, demeans.. and adulterates a thread.
Unfortunately.. people take our leniency in letting some low quality posts go as slackness.. they are quite mistaken.
I too can continue posting in every other thread about MKItabh Bachan...or LCA Khan..
but I know when to respect the systems.. and try to time humor about them... as do a few others.

Us Mods arent just for cleanups..
It is the desire of the admin, the mods.. and the TT's to continuously improve the quality of this forum.. and as is evident.. it is not just by passing out infractions or banning people.. but by setting a trend of posts.
A good member in my view is not one with lots of posts or thanks..
but someone whose posts one looks forward to..
Our hope is more and more members come into this group..
and not more and more members come in for the sake of posting.

So please, we appreciate your presence.. but do not post without abandon.. without logic..
And then post again and again the same repeated lines.

I hope to look forward to yours..and others.. posts..
instead of facepalming myself when I see them.

 

[MilSpec]

Alright ..this discussion was about IAF loosing its edge to PAF...

this is based on future acquisition of aircrafts. In tanlixiang28776's relevent post he mentions ..that j10b's (2014's version with reduced rcs and aesa), the advantage is going to be reduced significantly.

I hope you realize that Indian procurement of MMRCA (assume EFT t3 with aesa ) along with 270 MKI with zhuk phazatron Aesa upgrade, will increase that advantage that IAF holds over PAF significantly.

Next this power projection capability will be complimented by Three A/C carriers with Mig 29K's and LCA mk2 naval variants.

There will be larger production of LCA mk2 and being single seater there wil be significantly larger pilot to cockpit ratio upon induction.

mirages 2000's and Mig 29's SMT's are not going anywhere

apart from 3 phalcons an additional 3 phalcons are on discussions

DRDO AWE&C 3 on plan with a potential to be increased upto 11

indian navy will be acquiring 6 E2 hawkeye's

Along with above two in the next decade india will joint produce the PAKFA/FGFA in significant numbers ...

These are projects already in pipeline not to mention projects under development.

Counterargument?

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Alright ..this discussion was about IAF loosing its edge to PAF...

this is based on future acquisition of aircrafts. In tanlixiang28776's relevent post he mentions ..that j10b's (2014's version with reduced rcs and aesa), the advantage is going to be reduced significantly.

I hope you realize that Indian procurement of MMRCA (assume EFT t3 with aesa ) along with 270 MKI with zhuk phazatron Aesa upgrade, will increase that advantage that IAF holds over PAF significantly.

Next this power projection capability will be complimented by Three A/C carriers with Mig 29K's and LCA mk2 naval variants.

There will be larger production of LCA mk2 and being single seater there wil be significantly larger pilot to cockpit ratio upon induction.

mirages 2000's and Mig 29's SMT's are not going anywhere

apart from 3 phalcons an additional 3 phalcons are on discussions

DRDO AWE&C 3 on plan with a potential to be increased upto 11

indian navy will be acquiring 6 E2 hawkeye's

Along with above two in the next decade india will joint produce the PAKFA/FGFA in significant numbers ...

These are projects already in pipeline not to mention projects under development.

Counterargument?

No one here is arguing that the IAF will not have an edge over the PAF. Simply the fact that the edge is decreasing.

 

[notorious_eagle]

i hope you got the ANSWER of all chinese Type-XXshit weaponry and Made in China products...

COPY + STEAL = Made In China. ...

Oh do i smell sour grapes? Sure the Chinese buy tech and study them inside out, they take that knowledge and than incorporate it into their own domestic designs. Ask any engineer, reverse engineering is no easy process and takes lots of skill. Its not China's fault that India purchases all these fancy weapons with full TOT and fail to gain any knowledge, the LCA project is a testament to the fact that the Indians haven't learned . While the Chinese on the other hand learned, and further improved on whatever weapon systems they bought. Look at how much money the Chinese are investing into indigenous weapons industry, compare that to India whom simply imports the systems. So stop trolling and dont post if you dont have anything of substance to add.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

The only way i think IAF's edge can be reduced is if PLAAF enters the conflict ... whats your opinion? do you think PLAAF may send aircrafts to pakistan or may be adopt an agressive posture on the eastern border so that IAF cannot engage in full strength

The PLAAF and the PLA in general do not get involved in foreign conflicts. Sending forces to the border is possible in order to prevent full out war but even that is unlikely.

However the presence of PLAAF forces always deployed to the border means that the IAF will always have to deploy its forces against that threat.

Weapons sales are a different matter however. The last time Pakistan and India almost went to war after the Mumbai incident China sent enormous amounts of ordinance to Pakistan in a very short period. several hundred C 602 AsCMs were provided in less than a week for example. If another conflict arises the most likely response by China is massive military aid to Pakistan in the form of SAMs, AAMs, and the like along with diplomatic, and border pressure.

 

[MilSpec]

Oh do i smell sour grapes? Sure the Chinese buy tech and study them inside out, they take that knowledge and than incorporate it into their own domestic designs. Ask any engineer, reverse engineering is no easy process and takes lots of skill. Its not China's fault that India purchases all these fancy weapons with full TOT and fail to gain any knowledge, the LCA project is a testament to the fact that the Indians haven't learned . While the Chinese on the other hand learned, and further improved on whatever weapon systems they bought. Look at how much money the Chinese are investing into indigenous weapons industry, compare that to India whom simply imports the systems. So stop trolling and dont post if you dont have anything of substance to add.

Well I agree that chinese weapons are potent and they have done a good job reverse engineering and also there own investment in R&D is very highly being rewarded now..

We did not spend enough on R&D and could have manageged the projects better. We are growing nation and we are now spending on R&D in military tech. You can see the results in form of smoe of the defence systems already inducted in the armed forces. indian armed forces do not discount drdo over quality or else three would be no disqualifications of DRDO products.

Eventually Tejas will become a potent Weapon system and the knowledge gained from the project will be used in other projects. India is behind china in development i military technology. The system by which we work is slower than china.

I am not trying to be sarcastic but current Indian manufacturing environment does concentrate heavily on quality because in the end these systems have to compete wit euro and israeli systems.

 

[MilSpec]

The PLAAF and the PLA in general do not get involved in foreign conflicts. Sending forces to the border is possible in order to prevent full out war but even that is unlikely.

However the presence of PLAAF forces always deployed to the border means that the IAF will always have to deploy its forces against that threat.

Weapons sales are a different matter however. The last time Pakistan and India almost went to war after the Mumbai incident China sent enormous amounts of ordinance to Pakistan in a very short period. several hundred C 602 AsCMs were provided in less than a week for example. If another conflict arises the most likely response by China is massive military aid to Pakistan in the form of SAMs, AAMs, and the like along with diplomatic, and border pressure.

Thanks, that was very informative, i did not know about this.
In current diplomatic regime and geo political environment, Can india sustain chinese pressure or Can russia or israel negate this pressure.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Thanks, that was very informative, i did not know about this.
In current diplomatic regime and geo political environment, Can india sustain chinese pressure or Can russia or israel negate this pressure.

See I'm a nice guy when its not responding to fools from Bharat Rakshak.

As for the diplomatic environment China is not powerful enough to exert overwhelming pressure on India besides the above mentioned. China's position in the UN security council would make India's life difficult however. As India's largest trading partner it will also affect India's economy significantly.

Russia has been rather passive in most practically every single foreign military conflict in the World. It is however very assertive in its own territorial disputes like Georgia and the conflicts between Japan. If China begins infringing on Russia's land it might help pressure China, but otherwise military aid and perhaps diplomatic support would be the most likely response.

I don't think Israel can really pressure China but the US certainly can. But even they need an excuse. If China actively participates in the war or begins giving Pakistan unreasonably powerful weapons(ASBMs) then they would likely diplomatically support India, and provide arms. However actual participation in the war is extremely unlikely. Currently the US does not even want to lead the Air attacks on Libya.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

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