IAF faces shortage of fighter jets

[EagleEyes]

The only PAF plane which would really match the Su-30MKI would be the F-16 blk 52. And if you really think the J-10 is better than the blk 52, you are very very thoroughly mistaken.

Either your underestimating the F-16 blk 52 OR you overestimating the J-10. THey are not in the same league, let alone be comparable.

Pakistani J-10 will surely be better than its F-16 Block 52 in some extent. If you dont know what Pakistan plans to do with J-10 then read up. J-10 will be the future target towards the Su-30 and MRCA umbrella with other jets supporting the role.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay,

I think the J-10 will have better capabilities and avionics than MKK. The Chinese are not going to invest their billions to get an aircraft which is inferior to an import from Russia. Those in the PAF who have flown the J-10 speak extremely highly of the potential in the aircraft. I think Chinese will be springing a very nice surprise when J-10 goes prime time.

What i have constantly seen here is that everyone constantly talks about the 'potential' of the J-10 which makes it the best. Im sorry blain, but it just doesnt cut it. Do you think while the J-10 gets fitted with newer avionics and systems in say 5 years time, the rest of the worlds planes will be standing still? Every plane has the potential to be upgraded regardless of when its design was concieved unless the frame physically is too old.

Your point about why the Chinese are spending so much money on J-10, its not because its better, its because they own it. Simple as that, even if its performance matched that of a MiG 21, the Chinese would still fund it extensively, because its their own damn product. And the first decent plane they have made.

The MKK still remains the best plane in PLAAF. And Chinese inventories are already full with the Su-30 variants. Their future lack of orders does not mean that J-10 exceeds it. THey are now converting all their Su-27's and 30's to MKK standards. THey have a huge fleet already. What they need is a 'lo' to complement this massive flanker fleet, and that is the J-10. To put the icing on the cake is that supporting J-10 means investing in their own aerospace industry, which will pay off in the long run.

 

[Contrarian]

Pakistani J-10 will surely be better than its F-16 Block 52 in some extent. If you dont know what Pakistan plans to do with J-10 then read up. J-10 will be the future target towards the Su-30 and MRCA umbrella with other jets supporting the role.

Future means around a decade. And you think that the F-16 blk 52 would have no upgrades till that time? Or that the Indian Su-30 would remain the way it is?

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Other than Avionics, SU-27 Air Frame based Series is not going to evolve more than what it has become.

Su-27, Su-30 Airframe Series has got saturated. The best it can come up with now, will be AESA Radar. Aerodynamically SU series cannot evolve more (it has been evolving since 2 decades) and it is the peak of SU-27 and SU-30 class of Fighters.

 

[Contrarian]

Other than Avionics, SU-27 Air Frame based Series is not going to evolve more than what it has become.

Su-27, Su-30 Airframe Series has got saturated. The best it can come up with now, will be AESA Radar. Aerodynamically SU series cannot evolve more (it has been evolving since 2 decades) and it is the peak of SU-27 and SU-30 class of Fighters.

Aerodynamically J-10 is not going to evolve either. All that it will evolve is in avionics or minor structural changes, thats it..!

 

[blain2]

What i have constantly seen here is that everyone constantly talks about the 'potential' of the J-10 which makes it the best. Im sorry blain, but it just doesnt cut it. Do you think while the J-10 gets fitted with newer avionics and systems in say 5 years time, the rest of the worlds planes will be standing still? Every plane has the potential to be upgraded regardless of when its design was concieved unless the frame physically is too old.

Your point about why the Chinese are spending so much money on J-10, its not because its better, its because they own it. Simple as that, even if its performance matched that of a MiG 21, the Chinese would still fund it extensively, because its their own damn product. And the first decent plane they have made.

The MKK still remains the best plane in PLAAF. And Chinese inventories are already full with the Su-30 variants. Their future lack of orders does not mean that J-10 exceeds it. THey are now converting all their Su-27's and 30's to MKK standards. THey have a huge fleet already. What they need is a 'lo' to complement this massive flanker fleet, and that is the J-10. To put the icing on the cake is that supporting J-10 means investing in their own aerospace industry, which will pay off in the long run.

The arguments are the same old in terms of putting the J-10 down. I guess on my end, the reason the talk is all about potential is because the aircraft is probably in the IOC phase with the PLAAF. Its not even a true MR platform in the PLAAF service as of yet but to suggest that it can't become a very good one is belying reality. Most of the upgrades happening around the globe have to do with the sensor and avionics suit, so I don't see why the J-10 cannot be upgraded to match or exceed the capabilities being offered in the flanker family especially when the name of the game is integration of western avionics/weapons on the platform??

 

[Neo]

Aerodynamically J-10 is not going to evolve either. All that it will evolve is in avionics or minor structural changes, thats it..!

Actually J-10 eveloved a lot from original design, both aerodynamically as well as in size and avionics. Latest changes were made in fuselage and intakes.

If J-10 gets TVC more changes will be made.

 

[Contrarian]

The arguments are the same old in terms of putting the J-10 down.

I am not trying to put down the J-10 mate. We are merely discussing it, because i feel that Pakistani's are expecting a lot of it. Whether we deem it as a world beater or a crappy plane does not change a thing in the real world where this plane will function.

I guess on my end, the reason the talk is all about potential is because the aircraft is probably in the IOC phase with the PLAAF. Its not even a true MR platform in the PLAAF service as of yet but to suggest that it can't become a very good one is belying reality.

I am not saying it CANNOT become a good MR platform! Infact with time, it is SURE to become a good MR platform.

Most of the upgrades happening around the globe have to do with the sensor and avionics suit, so I don't see why the J-10 cannot be upgraded to match or exceed the capabilities being offered in the flanker family especially when the name of the game is integration of western avionics/weapons on the platform??

Exactly, now your hitting the nail on the head. The only 'potential' that is there is for the J-10 to be upgraded in avionics, electronics. While doing this for the PAF would take around a decade. And the PLAAF versions would still be inferior. The point is, that in those 10 years, do you think the other planes like the Indian flanker or the F-16 blk 52 or others would not undergo even more changes?

The thing is that people here start comparing what will be for the J-10 against what its contemporary fighters have now. Secondly, it is not as simple as you would think to inject western avionics in this fighter. The avionics that would be fit would be of the same generation as that of the Su-30MKI/M. It would not be of the Rafale/Typhoon levels. To have such kinds of avionics, You have to have these designed ground up for specific planes.

Do you think that the J-10 would be fitted out with EW equipment equal or superior to the blk 52? Keeping in mind again, that even that would change within the decade(assuming no sanctions). J-10 would be lucky to reach the levels of F-16 blk 52 in a decade, let alone surpass it. There might be some other EW pod, but none as capable that the PAF would possess in its F-16's, or stuff like SPECTRA in Rafale.

The only reason Indian MKI is good is because of the extensive Israeli help. Right from EW to targetting pods, to MAWS, to even missiles

And the Chinese avionics are nothing compared to even what the Russians are now. It will take them a long time to catchup even at the speed that they are currently on. The avionics of the Su-30MKK are far above what the J-10 possess even now. Unless the J-10 is fitted with Russian avionics, it would not match the MKK in that, and that is something the that the Chinese arguably would not do, considering its their centerpiece of Chinese equipment.

Pakistan has to wait for China to become good enough to match the Western nations in electronics and avionics industry which would take decades.

Next, this plane was designed in the same generation as the F-16, rather as an alternate to the F-16, so its comparison with newer airframes like the Typhoon and the Rafale with high degree of RCS reduction techniques incorporated right from the design stage is unjustified. Again, this is to point out that while it maybe in the same league as the Su-30MKK's, it cannot match the Rafale /Typhoon, that most Pakistani fanboys seem to think.

With time, the J-10 would equal the MKI or the blk 52 barring some fields but by that time, both would have evolved as well. This is what im trying to point out.

 

[Contrarian]

Actually J-10 eveloved a lot from original design, both aerodynamically as well as in size and avionics. Latest changes were made in fuselage and intakes.

Its in production now mate. It wont go through a lot of changes now on.

If J-10 gets TVC more changes will be made.

Do you know the amount of work and time that would go in making the J-10 a TVC equipped plane? Its MUCH MUCH more than simply putting a TVC engine in.

 

[EagleEyes]

With time, the J-10 would equal the MKI or the blk 52 barring some fields but by that time, both would have evolved as well. This is what im trying to point out.

Why can't the J-10 be equipped with the same avionics or better avionics than what future upgrades of Su-30MKI/F-16 Block 50/EF would get? Interesting question isn't it!

And what makes you think that Chinese/Russian EW systems are any inferior to the western one? Understanding that most of the western tech is always has or will be leaked to the Chinese?

 

[Keysersoze]

A more interesting question would be......How do we know that the upgrade program was not already started a while back? The Chinese are not known for giving out information willy nilly. If they have started 5th gen projects back in the 90's (according to ONI reports) Then it stands to reason that they may also have decided to find upgrades to aircraft such as the J-10 already.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Why can't the J-10 be equipped with the same avionics or better avionics than what future upgrades of Su-30MKI/F-16 Block 50/EF would get? Interesting question isn't it!

There is the issue of time frame for development. If J-10 shall be upgraded through western avionics then question is what kind of avionics hal be available in market from an indeendent vendor that shall be comparable to Upgraded EF's , MKI or F 16. Then there is the question of development and procrurement cycle, If PAF goes for J 10 in a few years from now then they would have or will be decideing the avionics soon and that means avionic package currently available in market so it can be fitted and doctrines can be developed around it. Also another question that baffles me. If J10 goes for western avionics then will it be possible to integrate Chinese weapons package or will J10 stick on with western weapons package.

And what makes you think that Chinese/Russian EW systems are any inferior to the western one?

Because both of them arrived late to the party. When the west were moving towards solid state electronics in the 90's Russians were still stuck up with Klystron and valve based electronics package but slowly they have started to go the solid state electronics way, regarding Chinese they came in waay to late then the Russians .

Understanding that most of the western tech is always has or will be leaked to the Chinese?

May be maybe not, assumptions .

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

A more interesting question would be......How do we know that the upgrade program was not already started a while back? The Chinese are not known for giving out information willy nilly. If they have started 5th gen projects back in the 90's (according to ONI reports) Then it stands to reason that they may also have decided to find upgrades to aircraft such as the J-10 already.

Can you clarify what will be the final avionics package thet will be used in J10 . I am confused , will it be initially western and then later batches shall have chinese aesa or will it be Chinese avionics in the initial batches and later western avionics or will PAF stick with a single vendor either west or Chinese. Are there any official announcements or has ACM indicated anything in this regard. would appriciate your comments ...

 

[Contrarian]

Why can't the J-10 be equipped with the same avionics or better avionics than what future upgrades of Su-30MKI/F-16 Block 50/EF would get? Interesting question isn't it!

Taking just an example of EW. The US is not going to sell its EW pods separately to be installed on the J-10. The Chinese or Russian EW suites are nothing in comparison to what US or Israel produce.France is not going to sell SPECTRA to be installed on J-10. The point is that they want you to buy the whole machine. MFD's and the like, even radars can be bought, but there's a whole bunch of stuff apart from that that can only be gotten through buying the plane. Secondly, as regards to the radar, US is already on its second generation of AESA radars, while Europe is soon going to get its first one in a couple of years. The Russians too will field an ad-hoc AESA radar in a couple of years. The Chinese are FAR behind.

The Europeans will not sell you their latest technology, it will be sold a while after they induct it themselves, which means atleast after 2012.

Like i said, the only reason MKI is what it is, is because of Israel.

And what makes you think that Chinese/Russian EW systems are any inferior to the western one? Understanding that most of the western tech is always has or will be leaked to the Chinese?

Dont rely on the Chinese stealing every western tech. Even after being exposed to Russian equipment AND blueprints they still have not built an engine, or other avionics or kits which are sourced from Russia. China is a no comparison in this.

indo-pak friendship has mentioned already about Russia. THey are way behind. They have started on solid state technology and jammers only now. Infact for MiG 35, Russians have contracted an Italian company for true solid state jammers.

And for more information you should Really talk to China experts, who will give you a very accurate view. Not fanboys who think that China is going to come out with their 5th gen plane much before Russia(and no im not referring to you Keys-because you mention 5th gen plane in your last post, i understand your last post is not about this!)!

 

[Contrarian]

A more interesting question would be......How do we know that the upgrade program was not already started a while back? The Chinese are not known for giving out information willy nilly. If they have started 5th gen projects back in the 90's (according to ONI reports) Then it stands to reason that they may also have decided to find upgrades to aircraft such as the J-10 already.

Yet to field a half decent radar of their own. Infact they were quite excited to buy the Irbis Radar from Russia. They dont want the plane but the engine and a lot of technology of the Su-35.

This is apart from AESA, where i dare say the software plays a greater part than the hardware.