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I, Maha Sapta Sindhu

Blood will out. However much I tried, it finally was impossible to stay calm and serene.

Well.. compared to an Indian run forum I visited.. this is still mundane.

Your point is clear. An explanation seems to be in order. I would hate to give offence when I don't wish to, even by mistake. So if I have comparisons to make, I tend to make them, in this case, for instance, with other similar fora.

I don't frequent Indian fora in general; in fact, the very, very few, three in number, and a fourth Nepali one, are run by liberals or leftists, very young people whose writings keep me going. Otherwise I tend to confine myself to ATP, where I read and don't write any more; PTH, where I read regularly but contribute comments very, very occasionally; and this.

PTH is home, in a way. I feel very funny when Pakistanis gravely instruct me about Pakistan and how things are done over here and what means what to whom. The class of people I have encountered on PTH are easily those whom I would respect under all circumstances, totally without regard to their nationality. That these couple of dozen or more regulars are classy is beyond cavil; it is humbling that in times past, they used to read and appreciate my posts. But PTH gives me enormous hope for the future. No matter what happens elsewhere, no matter what the headlines say, no matter how grim the anchors look, as long as there is one Raza Rumi, one Yasser Hamdani, or Bloody Civilian, or A. A. Khalid, or Bin Ismail, or that thorn in every Indian's side, PMA, or Tilism, or Raza Raja left alive, there is no doubt in my mind that Pakistan has a bright and beautiful future. Things can't go wrong when such bright intellects grace a nation's discourses.

The illwill will stay.. as long as the establishment on both sides play their cards.

Sadly, you may be right. But I have had very strong friendships with the gentlemen mentioned above, without having met a single one of them even once. So - and this is hopeful - you may not be entirely right!

Similarly, when I encounter comments by you, or for that matter, by Niaz or T Faz or Agnostic Muslim, or that rich treasure-house of information and knowledge, Fatman17, I pause and try to relate it to these comments after considerable consideration; it is not so easy to relate to some others.

The only solution is people to people.. face to face.. contact..You cannot expect years and years of incorrect or incomplete history to be erased here.. as I cannot expect years and years of suspicion to be erased in India.

I don't know how to say this. But from my left-of-centre point of view, a point of view neutral to religious or cultural animosities, it does seem to me that Indian suspicion and fear of Pakistan is a recent phenomenon. I would go so far as to a post-Kargil phenomenon. Partly because our media are very strong, and manage to mould public opinion as it desires.

The media, along with the Congress Party, propagated a myth about Jinnah which is still the conventional view of the formation of Pakistan, but which still did not lead to a hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis, only a virtuous indignation that the whole was sundered; it obscured the betrayal of the Indian Army in 62 by the politicians and by our own generals; and it drove public opinion to a fever pitch in 99, again in 08.

It was on these two occasions that Pakistan, the land of Hanif Mohammed, and Imran Khan, and Wasim Akram and Waqar Yunus, and Inzamam ul Haq, and a thousand other illuminated and godlike beings, to speak of only one clear point of contact, became for those who are influenced unduly by the media a permanent enemy, traitors who had waited for us to raise the hand of friendship, who had waited for us to come forward with a smile, and had then rewarded our trust and effort at friendship with treachery.

I think Kargil, staged at any time other than when Vajpayee went to Islamabad, might have caused less fury; the juxtaposition of the two events was the deepest part of the wound.

The approach taken by our leaders and our NGO's is completely opposite.. one's slogan is "let bygones be bygones".. the others "atoot ang" and "freedom".

It isn't clear what you are saying here. Who is saying what? I only recognised 'Freedom' and 'Atoot Ang', presumably referring to Kashmiri separatist and the BJP/Sangh Parivar; who's supposed to be saying 'let bygones be bygones'?

One nation's military is less involved with the government.... but in its expansion is still concentrating on its western borders..

The other's lives for the "coming" fight with yours.. otherwise it would have little excuse to demand the large budgetary share..and the luxuries its senior staff enjoy.

I might have put the matter in harsher terms, but fair enough.

So..
Where..in this chaos.. does the "understand and resolve, Accept and forgive(NOT forget)".. person go?? This voice.. is rarely heard..in the screams of the others... he/she rarely utters something.. or mumbles it out when it comes.

Mumble on, it is. So be it. But no regrets. A thousand things could happen if people listened to each other, but your prognosis rings sadly true.

Maha Sapta Sindhu.. is probably part of a coal reserve by now..
And his polarized descendants..and those with alien dna in this divided land... are too busy fighting over a dead man's dna.

More than his DNA; his heritage is at stake.

I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back.

Thats exactly what happened to me some three weeks back when the barrage of Chinese Indian war on PDF with necessary spices from third front happened. The level of hatred just leaves a nauseating feeling in ones senses as a whole. Little do people realize that words on a single post (among many) in a single thread (among many) in a forum (among many) wouldn't change or alter the course of events, well thats taking it too far :undecided:.

Anyway as i told i am spending lesser time and keep away from these threads meant to flame and i am the happier no doubt. I am not that experienced to give suggestions to some one like u but better keep away from these kind of threads. They serve no purpose but to satiate the egos of some inconsequential fellers. The disappointing thing is that i respect Gunner as he has never posted crap as far as i know. May be he wanted to post it thinking it to be new thing or i don't know. Too much indecision on my part i agree.

So long.

My only comment: let's not blame Gunner; he's all right. He was following a recent trend.

Santro i perfectly respect ur integrity in keeping up with the forum's rules. While i agree on all your points, i would like to talk specifically on the bold part.

Every Indian member knows this is not an Indian forum, does two wrongs make it right?? or should we be constantly reminded that this is a foreign forum.

PDF strives to make it clear that it is different from the other Indian forums and we know that and don't deny that. For ur kind information this is the forum i have joined first and though i have enlisted myself on an other Indian forum i have posted there may be one or two posts till date.

So why do people constantly harp on this point every time. Is this a last resort to explain the hatred?? Nobody here is in the delusion that we are friends, as u i also want to know the opinion of u guys in general and read about some defence related stuff, thats it.

I must share with you an irony. On PTH, except for PMA Sahib, I am the most vocal advocate of banning Indian trolls. Of late, I've given up, because the members there have become adept troll-fighters. Each of them. And using no vulgarism or threats.

The point is that no matter how moderate Indian members try to appear, they tend to stick together and act in gangs. Jon might disagree with the "RSS responses" but not once did he respond to such posts as he responds to Pakistani posts.

If I prove you wrong, do I get an apology? Be aware that it will take only a few seconds to prove you wrong.

There seems to be a similar reaction by Indians in every history topic. Extreme frustration to convince Pakistanis they are not natives but foreign invaders with a foreign ideology who stole the region from the original Indians. This is the message that is put across by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult.

This is not the way I see it. I have taken part lately in each and every case of these historical, and sometimes pre-historical discussions. If you want to know what it looks like from the other side, just go to the first few posts of this thread and see what I have said.

There have been some, one section of the Indian commenters, who denied that present-day Pakistanis had any links or connections with the people who built the IVC. This is silly and contrary to the evidence; there has been no major change since the Holocene age.

Their reason for saying so was their seizing on the occasional racist claims of some Pakistanis, who have claimed that they are of Arabic, Turkish or Persian, or of other Central Asian descent, subtly implying some racial superiority. These claims are as silly and contrary as those of their Indian counter-parts.

On the other hand, it has been the single-minded effort of many of the Pakistani commenters to establish that the present-day dwellers of the Indus Valley are in every respect different from the dwellers of the rest of the sub-continent. This is palpably wrong and contradicted by the best scientific evidence; not only by the original Cavalli-Sforza study, but ironically enough the very same extended study conducted by a Pakistani team, and cited by a super-patriot who wished to establish this genetic separation.

What are we to do in these circumstances? Keep quiet out of a sense of obligation to our forum hosts, or speak up to correct an egregious error being conveyed to us for whatever reason?

If we now re-visit your formulation, by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult, it does seem to be inverted. It does seem to be fairer to say that by denying Indians any connection to their past, it's a plain insult. One, it might be added, that has been taken up mildly.

You might appreciate the forum for its tolerance but I cant help notice the tolerance tends to be one sided. The single Indian member on this forum with a different view point is verbally attacked at every opportunity. In the above post you wrote:

"I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back. ".

Explain how this post had any good intentions?
Were you simply seeking opinions of Pakistanis?
Promoting tolerance and friendship?
Promoting genuine discussion?

Or just plain old gang trolling.

This is exactly the reason for a reminder that this is a Pakistani forum and not BR.

If u could see the replies of Joe they were getting more and more verbal and pronouncing in his replies. If u have see him before u would know that he generally keeps away from such sensitive topics. The reason i spoke particularly of the cure to "intelligent posts" was to let him pacify himself. As a fellow Indian i am required to that and i have done that.

Regarding ur questions on my intentions can u please reply to my one question?? how many times did u intervene when either Pakistani or Chinese posters talk about evil , conniving treacherous hindoo baniyas to be crushed or to be nuked once or twice or other kinds of racist remarks??

You just posted selectively my words but not the rest of the sentence where i said i stay away from such topics. Is it not best in the interest of harmony not to reply to such topics where it leads to only further flaming? Or do u think i am a Saint to laugh when my country and its people get insulted. I am as patriotic as you are.

Don't tell me that i am the one who is starting the flame war, its already been ignited. On topic what i feel is what i have told Joe and that is, that u will believe what u want and i will believe what i want. End of discussion for me on topic, however if u think more clarification on my posts please ask and i will reply aptly.

As Indushek has made it clear, his advice to me was to abstain from intervention in cases where the exchanges had lost dignity and decorum, as it did not seem that I would be able to contribute to such unruly threads. You may look it up for yourself by tracking Indushek's mail interventions.

As you mentioned me in this connection, presumably I too have a right to respond to the five questions you put to Indushek, not because you have any prescriptive right to arraign any other member on such charges, but because leaving them unanswered may lead to further insinuations and slurs:
  1. Explain how this post had any good intentions?
  2. Were you simply seeking opinions of Pakistanis?
  3. Promoting tolerance and friendship?
  4. Promoting genuine discussion?
  5. Or just plain old gang trolling.
  1. It was intended to avert a flame war by guiding me away from responding to those whose language and approach was clearly inflammatory;
  2. No, it was not seeking an opinion from either a Pakistani or an Indian. As you and everybody else is well aware, not every post is a seeking of the opinion of others.
  3. It was an attempt at promoting tolerance and friendship of the highest order.
  4. It was in precisely the same fashion a promotion of genuine discussion, made at the highest moral and ethical level.
  5. This accusation should never have been made.

At the end of the day, your chargesheet lays yourself open to the first four of the charges levelled against Indushek.

Apart from seeking and offering explanations for each other's behaviour, and apart from taking high-handed attitudes, it might be more to the point if we were to improve the tone of the discussions with less personal advice and greater attention to the quality of our inputs. I have issues with those, and wish that a fraction of the attention that has been paid to atmospherics had been paid to solid fact and information content. Without that, this forum becomes another Chowk, where 98% of the exchanges are personal insults, devoid of any meaningful content.

Since you have claimed proprietorial rights, with whatever sanction from the administration, you will no doubt claim and assume responsibility henceforth for improvements that are desperately needed.
 
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Santro i perfectly respect ur integrity in keeping up with the forum's rules. While i agree on all your points, i would like to talk specifically on the bold part.

Every Indian member knows this is not an Indian forum, does two wrongs make it right?? or should we be constantly reminded that this is a foreign forum.

PDF strives to make it clear that it is different from the other Indian forums and we know that and don't deny that. For ur kind information this is the forum i have joined first and though i have enlisted myself on an other Indian forum i have posted there may be one or two posts till date.

So why do people constantly harp on this point every time. Is this a last resort to explain the hatred?? Nobody here is in the delusion that we are friends, as u i also want to know the opinion of u guys in general and read about some defence related stuff, thats it.

Should the hatred be explained??
Does it.. after all these years.. all those posts..need explanation.
Look at all the Pakistani members..
look at all the Indian members..
70% of each will display a negative attitude from the word go.

I too came to this forum with a positive approach about the other side.After all.. I have visited India twice..and apart from the general spirited debate.. left with positive views.
yet.. after spending the time here.. looking at the way some Indian member's present their arguments.. without granting even an inch of valid ground.. I too feel the hatred.
for one thing.. I can literally count on my fingers the number of Indian's here who have ever for once appreciated our military.. or shown respect for it.. if not for the leaders..for the troops.
Our achievements are treated with cynical and sarcastic comments..
called cheats.. etc...even religion is not spared... online "sources" are defended with such ferocity...that it astounds me.

Now the other side of the coin..
Pakistani members keep a knee jerk policy as well, they look at an Indian.. and will first take his question and pass comments on it without even reading what it is.. and if they dont know about it..or cannot answer it.. dont ignore it for someone who can answer it.
They too will resort to low level jabs at any failure or a chink in the armor of the India's image..without considering the factors behind it.
Giving the lame excuse.. "they would do the same"..
If you feel a certain membership group likes to roll in the mud.. must you insist on doing the same??
Often responses by Pakistani members on Indian posts based on debunking or disagreeing logically.. citing the underlined reason as the excuse.
and more often than not.. of you cannot come up with an article to counter something by wall street.. even if you are sure of what is right.. then keep quiet.. continue your discussion with the others.
Instead of going on the defensive like a cornered tiger..

Coming to why PDF is different..
Look at the way our mods, administration..give other members liberty..
show me another forum where a member of the opposing side can rant like a 3 year old about something that is established factually and still be only suspended or given a warning.
Where the opposing force has its own section .. which has a post count almost equal to the Pakistani section...
Where a Pakistani member rarely posts.. and if he utters something negative he/she is pounced upon like a bunch of jackals and scathing remarks passed about his "lack of sources"..or knowledge.
Yet when some Indian members regularly post demeaning remarks about our nation,its achievements and its military..yet continue to be allowed to post.
Again.. I can count on my fingers the number of Indian members here who utter a positive word about Us regularly..or at least are willing to accept that a conclusion cannot be made without knowing the whole picture...
Others are usually interested in making sure that whatever that is being discussed.. is either better in India.. or is useless for us.
There are Pakistani members that are as guilty of the above as Indians.. and Chinese ones...and others..
BUT they all post.. they too get banned.. and suspended when they drift into nonsense.

Even us TT's get a warning if we lose our cool with a member..for whatever reason... we too can be suspended.

Nothing is perfect..
But compared to what Ive seen out there.. Defence.pk is better than most.




Now..
that the wandering out of topic is complete..
I was having a discussion with a professor from QAU..
The same question of "what is the Pakistani identity" came up..
The crux of his conclusion was that an embrace of the cultural roots is important.. and that the difference between the Indian's and US.. was the embodiment of the Islamic identity into our lives...both culturally and genetically.. is what has now given us an Identity.. but its not with Islamization..but embracing our diversity...yet celebrating it with the spirit of Islam..if I phrased this all correctly.

I perfectly understand the anguish in your voice and share it regarding our two countries. Not everybody is a fundamentalist here as it is with your country. My friend the voices of saner people will always be lost in the hubris of rabble rouser's. It is the way of the world, happened before is happening and will go on. Sanity in these kind of matters is considered insanity by the majority.

Just as we cannot pinpoint a particular part of the last 62 years when our two countries became the staunch enemies we are, the same is the situation in this excellent forum. While there were always trolls the recent vitriolic nature of posts are getting too heady for me i have to say. I am not taking sides, our both sides have problem as u have pointed out.

If u care to see above i highlighted the part of my reply regarding this forum and i once again assert that no matter what this forum will not loose its value in my eyes due to certain people. It was in fact a surprise to me when first i was searching for some defence topic and found this, i never thought Pakistani forums would allow Indians and that too make some of them Elite Members. Actually this is the first forum of any kind i joined and i will continue here no matter what.

This is the reason i was saying that u need not remind us the value of this forum. I am as much a member of PDF as u are and will always remain so.
 
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Very often, it is not possible to access the Net and view this or other mail or communications until the evening. As a result, responses tend to get written across midnight, part in a short burst in the late evening, part in another insomniac section in the early hours, typically all finished off in a brief session before a welcome walk in the park.

Sometimes, rarely, this leads to very important messages being missed out altogether.

Your mail below was missed out like that. After reading it in the late morning, on an idle day, I am left to ponder over what you have written about the intransigence of both sides with a great deal of melancholy. It is not even clear if a response is needed; perhaps courtesy demands it, if for no other reason than the genuine and deep-rooted humanist feeling with which your entire note is imbued. Perhaps, on the other hand, it may be best to allow it time, were it not for the existential problem that this Internet age measures time by the sub-divisions of a stopwatch, not by the thoughtful intervals of a sun-dial.

Perhaps, on balance, an hour or two of contemplating what you have written, and pondering over its implications, is warranted.

Should the hatred be explained??
Does it.. after all these years.. all those posts..need explanation.
Look at all the Pakistani members..
look at all the Indian members..
70% of each will display a negative attitude from the word go.

I too came to this forum with a positive approach about the other side.After all.. I have visited India twice..and apart from the general spirited debate.. left with positive views.
yet.. after spending the time here.. looking at the way some Indian member's present their arguments.. without granting even an inch of valid ground.. I too feel the hatred.
for one thing.. I can literally count on my fingers the number of Indian's here who have ever for once appreciated our military.. or shown respect for it.. if not for the leaders..for the troops.
Our achievements are treated with cynical and sarcastic comments..
called cheats.. etc...even religion is not spared... online "sources" are defended with such ferocity...that it astounds me.

Now the other side of the coin..
Pakistani members keep a knee jerk policy as well, they look at an Indian.. and will first take his question and pass comments on it without even reading what it is.. and if they dont know about it..or cannot answer it.. dont ignore it for someone who can answer it.
They too will resort to low level jabs at any failure or a chink in the armor of the India's image..without considering the factors behind it.
Giving the lame excuse.. "they would do the same"..
If you feel a certain membership group likes to roll in the mud.. must you insist on doing the same??
Often responses by Pakistani members on Indian posts based on debunking or disagreeing logically.. citing the underlined reason as the excuse.
and more often than not.. of you cannot come up with an article to counter something by wall street.. even if you are sure of what is right.. then keep quiet.. continue your discussion with the others.
Instead of going on the defensive like a cornered tiger..

Coming to why PDF is different..
Look at the way our mods, administration..give other members liberty..
show me another forum where a member of the opposing side can rant like a 3 year old about something that is established factually and still be only suspended or given a warning.
Where the opposing force has its own section .. which has a post count almost equal to the Pakistani section...
Where a Pakistani member rarely posts.. and if he utters something negative he/she is pounced upon like a bunch of jackals and scathing remarks passed about his "lack of sources"..or knowledge.
Yet when some Indian members regularly post demeaning remarks about our nation,its achievements and its military..yet continue to be allowed to post.
Again.. I can count on my fingers the number of Indian members here who utter a positive word about Us regularly..or at least are willing to accept that a conclusion cannot be made without knowing the whole picture...
Others are usually interested in making sure that whatever that is being discussed.. is either better in India.. or is useless for us.
There are Pakistani members that are as guilty of the above as Indians.. and Chinese ones...and others..
BUT they all post.. they too get banned.. and suspended when they drift into nonsense.

Even us TT's get a warning if we lose our cool with a member..for whatever reason... we too can be suspended.

Nothing is perfect..
But compared to what Ive seen out there.. Defence.pk is better than most.




Now..
that the wandering out of topic is complete..
I was having a discussion with a professor from QAU..
The same question of "what is the Pakistani identity" came up..
The crux of his conclusion was that an embrace of the cultural roots is important.. and that the difference between the Indian's and US.. was the embodiment of the Islamic identity into our lives...both culturally and genetically.. is what has now given us an Identity.. but its not with Islamization..but embracing our diversity...yet celebrating it with the spirit of Islam..if I phrased this all correctly.
 
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@ joe
The "aman ki asha" affiliated activists..
It pains me when I hear these people make tall claims in press conferences held at five star hotels stating "we dont know why the partition really happened".."we should forget the past.."
and then they head off for a three course meal..
Such an approach can never work..
It is impossible for today's German and the Israeli to ignore the holocaust.. as it is impossible for us Indian's and Pakistani's to forget our past.
 
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@ joe
The "aman ki asha" affiliated activists..
It pains me when I hear these people make tall claims in press conferences held at five star hotels stating "we dont know why the partition really happened".."we should forget the past.."
and then they head off for a three course meal..
Such an approach can never work..
It is impossible for today's German and the Israeli to ignore the holocaust.. as it is impossible for us Indian's and Pakistani's to forget our past.

Ah, I see now. A point very well made.

Yet, without for a moment being one of these creatures, I can grin and bear it, for the simple reason that they are at least not shouting and screaming at the other side. At least, in however maudlin a fashion, they are talking rationally to the other side.

Having said that, I agree that a conversation of such type cannot survive the three-course meal. It is quite clear that rational and logical discussion, on a foundation of assumed goodwill, assumed at the foundation itself, is the only way to go forward. Always on the understanding that it is worth while to go forward; against fanatics of any persuasion, no conversation is possible.

Your mail of 12:28 (12:28!!!)made a considerable impression, and it warrants considerable introspection. Bear with me, please, if I do not reply immediately.
 
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Bro...u r an intellectual person....may God bless you... i know you would give me links to reinforce ur assertion about raw's activities and in return pakistani members here will give there evidences....so lets not start it !!!

Have an amazing Christmas !!!

Cheers :cheers:
 
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Bro...u r an intellectual person....may God bless you... i know you would give me links to reinforce ur assertion about raw's activities and in return pakistani members here will give there evidences....so lets not start it !!!

Have an amazing Christmas !!!

Cheers :cheers:

That sounds like a definitive NO! :-( Oh well, some other time. This gets listed with CardSharp refusing to let me talk about the historicity of the Chinese claim to Tibet, and several other rebuffs. Maybe nobody likes reading history. Maybe nobody likes me writing about history. Maybe this is a good time to learn to knit.

Wishing all at PDF a very Happy New Year, since I will be out of Net communication for a few days,
 
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That sounds like a definitive NO! :-( Oh well, some other time. This gets listed with CardSharp refusing to let me talk about the historicity of the Chinese claim to Tibet, and several other rebuffs. Maybe nobody likes reading history. Maybe nobody likes me writing about history. Maybe this is a good time to learn to knit.

Wishing all at PDF a very Happy New Year, since I will be out of Net communication for a few days,

Hi Joe

This post of yours piqued my interest. Even though im nowhere near knowledgeable as you are on history, I have always been fascinated by it.(Probably because my grandparents were geography/history teachers and some of it rubbed off onto me :P )

I am interested in knowing more about China's claims on Tibet, and have read up on some materiel available online. However I would really appreciate it if you could point me to some books/links/other materiel which might shed some more light on this matter. I apologize if this request might seem like a bolt out of the blue; but I thought it may be better for me to ask you for some information regarding this subject as you seem to be well versed on it(I've read your posts on some threads regarding this subject). I realize that your time is precious and that you might have more pressing issues than providing such links/info on pdf, however I would be much obliged if you could find some time to reply. I hasten to add that there is no need to reply asap;..reply only when time permits.

regards
 
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Hi Joe

This post of yours piqued my interest. Even though im nowhere near knowledgeable as you are on history, I have always been fascinated by it.(Probably because my grandparents were geography/history teachers and some of it rubbed off onto me :P )

I am interested in knowing more about China's claims on Tibet, and have read up on some materiel available online. However I would really appreciate it if you could point me to some books/links/other materiel which might shed some more light on this matter. I apologize if this request might seem like a bolt out of the blue; but I thought it may be better for me to ask you for some information regarding this subject as you seem to be well versed on it(I've read your posts on some threads regarding this subject). I realize that your time is precious and that you might have more pressing issues than providing such links/info on pdf, however I would be much obliged if you could find some time to reply. I hasten to add that there is no need to reply asap;..reply only when time permits.

regards

I am glad you asked. I will get back shortly, as soon as I return from my trip.

Until then, Happy New Year.
 
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This essay - "comment" trivialises it - was gripping. It engages attention afresh with every reading, and was pithy and pointed. An answer, or response, rather, that does not take into account its complexity under a seemingly simple construction would be insulting to the person responding.

Should the hatred be explained??
Does it.. after all these years.. all those posts..need explanation.
Look at all the Pakistani members..
look at all the Indian members..
70% of each will display a negative attitude from the word go.

It was perhaps unfair and naif to complain about the abundant hatred on display, especially to compare the sentiments on display here with what is on display elsewhere.

What were those "elsewhere"? Liberal fora, committed to liberalism, to secularism, to democracy. Leave aside the historical linguistic blunder that secularism is translated as opposition to religion in Urdu, any liberal democrat is usually, though not always, likely to be secular. A liberal democrat with a parochial bias in thinking is an extremely curious animal, and may not be available outside an environment consisting of formaldehyde.

That kind of forum invites a certain kind of Pakistani, although the zealots do descend on it from time to time to castigate their prey, especially YLH (for example). It was all the more touching the other day when one of the arch-zealots wrote in with a comment the other day which showed clearly that the spirit of fair play that runs through such fora had infected him as well. It was devastating to read that, rather like Genghis Khan worrying about his troopers not having first aid boxes to carry.

People in those have a natural propensity to stick out their hands to those who qualify an initial period of wary evaluation. Soon, things become very friendly. But that is only to be expected. It is unfair to compare the general attitude of posters there with the general attitude of posters here.

Who would look for a defence-affairs forum? the opposite kind, likelier to strike disagreement down, unlikely to look with kindness on alien religions, inclined to arrogate all that is good to his side, all that is bad to the other side.
  • A very young person with romantic notions about defence, about the military, about warfare, about the enemy;
  • Mature people, following military matters as a hobby, considerably knowledgeable about these matters without being fully versed with the details of everything in sight;
  • A much older military professional, in the fall of his life, looking on indulgently at the peculiar constructions of the younger people;
  • An analyst desperate for information, but saddened much more than enthused at the belligerence of the younger crowd;
  • Trolls from the outer world, fortunately easily detectable.
There may be others. These are some that matter.

The point is, these are precisely the youngsters, the categories 1 and 4, who are most likely to be aggressive and bellicose. Clearly, then, we are comparing members of a forum which places a premium on getting along with others with members of a forum which seemingly places a premium on belligerent behaviour. Even though the founder and the administrators may never had this profile in mind, it is inevitable that, with its emphasis on shiny new gadgets, it would appeal primarily to the young and impressionable. Further, that these same young and impressionable would imagine that they are bound to strike a martial note in their conversations, the words they use, the views they represent, and so on.

We need not be surprised that there are occasional explosions; the miracle is that they are so few and far between.


I too came to this forum with a positive approach about the other side.After all.. I have visited India twice..and apart from the general spirited debate.. left with positive views.
yet.. after spending the time here.. looking at the way some Indian member's present their arguments.. without granting even an inch of valid ground.. I too feel the hatred.
for one thing.. I can literally count on my fingers the number of Indian's here who have ever for once appreciated our military.. or shown respect for it.. if not for the leaders..for the troops.
Our achievements are treated with cynical and sarcastic comments..
called cheats.. etc...even religion is not spared... online "sources" are defended with such ferocity...that it astounds me.

Now the other side of the coin..
Pakistani members keep a knee jerk policy as well, they look at an Indian.. and will first take his question and pass comments on it without even reading what it is.. and if they dont know about it..or cannot answer it.. dont ignore it for someone who can answer it.
They too will resort to low level jabs at any failure or a chink in the armor of the India's image..without considering the factors behind it.
Giving the lame excuse.. "they would do the same"..
If you feel a certain membership group likes to roll in the mud.. must you insist on doing the same??
Often responses by Pakistani members on Indian posts based on debunking or disagreeing logically.. citing the underlined reason as the excuse.
and more often than not.. of you cannot come up with an article to counter something by wall street.. even if you are sure of what is right.. then keep quiet.. continue your discussion with the others.
Instead of going on the defensive like a cornered tiger..

Coming to why PDF is different..
Look at the way our mods, administration..give other members liberty..
show me another forum where a member of the opposing side can rant like a 3 year old about something that is established factually and still be only suspended or given a warning.
Where the opposing force has its own section .. which has a post count almost equal to the Pakistani section...
Where a Pakistani member rarely posts.. and if he utters something negative he/she is pounced upon like a bunch of jackals and scathing remarks passed about his "lack of sources"..or knowledge.
Yet when some Indian members regularly post demeaning remarks about our nation,its achievements and its military..yet continue to be allowed to post.
Again.. I can count on my fingers the number of Indian members here who utter a positive word about Us regularly..or at least are willing to accept that a conclusion cannot be made without knowing the whole picture...
Others are usually interested in making sure that whatever that is being discussed.. is either better in India.. or is useless for us.
There are Pakistani members that are as guilty of the above as Indians.. and Chinese ones...and others..
BUT they all post.. they too get banned.. and suspended when they drift into nonsense.

Even us TT's get a warning if we lose our cool with a member..for whatever reason... we too can be suspended.

Nothing is perfect..
But compared to what Ive seen out there.. Defence.pk is better than most.


Now..
that the wandering out of topic is complete..
I was having a discussion with a professor from QAU..
The same question of "what is the Pakistani identity" came up..
The crux of his conclusion was that an embrace of the cultural roots is important.. and that the difference between the Indian's and US.. was the embodiment of the Islamic identity into our lives...both culturally and genetically.. is what has now given us an Identity.. but its not with Islamization..but embracing our diversity...yet celebrating it with the spirit of Islam..if I phrased this all correctly.
 
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Should the hatred be explained??
Does it.. after all these years.. all those posts..need explanation.
Look at all the Pakistani members..
look at all the Indian members..
70% of each will display a negative attitude from the word go.

I too came to this forum with a positive approach about the other side.After all.. I have visited India twice..and apart from the general spirited debate.. left with positive views.

Out of curiousity - I keep asking this question - do your impressions after meeting people on your two visits gell with your impressions of Indian posters here?

yet.. after spending the time here.. looking at the way some Indian member's present their arguments.. without granting even an inch of valid ground.. I too feel the hatred.

This point is more than sensitive. It isn't possible to generalise; it is possible to cope with it only through personal example.

Please bear in mind that the entire response from here onwards is about a series of personal experiences; these may or may not extrapolate well.

The interventions in question were exclusively on history; truth to tell, on a recent thread, "Motivations behind selecting the name 'India' in 1947", except for the promoter of the thread, roadrunner, and one or two honourable exceptions, there were few other individuals who knew what was being argued about. It was particularly difficult to cope with the egregious errors of some young people.

In such a situation, with the greatest desire to be evenhanded and fair, it was simply not possible.

This is emphatically not a constant practice. Recently, Bang Galore has been most challenging on a series of questions related to the IVC, and it has been necessary to admit that some issues raised by him are simply not known sufficiently well to permit any single, coherent example: various equally valid options are available, and there is little to choose between those examples.

for one thing.. I can literally count on my fingers the number of Indian's here who have ever for once appreciated our military.. or shown respect for it.. if not for the leaders..for the troops.

This is an appalling state of affairs, and I personally deplore it. Again, personally speaking, I have nothing to hide; both here and on PTH, I have referred to great Pakistani commanders with the respect and reverence they demanded, during the course of a discussion on military matters.

Our achievements are treated with cynical and sarcastic comments..
called cheats.. etc...even religion is not spared... online "sources" are defended with such ferocity...that it astounds me.

Again, it is not possible to consider these activities as bestowing any dignity or grace on the posters concerned. I can only regret that these have occurred, and can only ensure by personal example that these tactics aren't - ever - endorsed by me or those who feel like me.


Now the other side of the coin..
Pakistani members keep a knee jerk policy as well, they look at an Indian.. and will first take his question and pass comments on it without even reading what it is.. and if they dont know about it..or cannot answer it.. dont ignore it for someone who can answer it.
They too will resort to low level jabs at any failure or a chink in the armor of the India's image..without considering the factors behind it.
Giving the lame excuse.. "they would do the same"..
If you feel a certain membership group likes to roll in the mud.. must you insist on doing the same??
Often responses by Pakistani members on Indian posts based on debunking or disagreeing logically.. citing the underlined reason as the excuse.
and more often than not.. of you cannot come up with an article to counter something by wall street.. even if you are sure of what is right.. then keep quiet.. continue your discussion with the others.
Instead of going on the defensive like a cornered tiger..

Coming to why PDF is different..
Look at the way our mods, administration..give other members liberty..
show me another forum where a member of the opposing side can rant like a 3 year old about something that is established factually and still be only suspended or given a warning.
Where the opposing force has its own section .. which has a post count almost equal to the Pakistani section...
Where a Pakistani member rarely posts.. and if he utters something negative he/she is pounced upon like a bunch of jackals and scathing remarks passed about his "lack of sources"..or knowledge.
Yet when some Indian members regularly post demeaning remarks about our nation,its achievements and its military..yet continue to be allowed to post.
Again.. I can count on my fingers the number of Indian members here who utter a positive word about Us regularly..or at least are willing to accept that a conclusion cannot be made without knowing the whole picture...
Others are usually interested in making sure that whatever that is being discussed.. is either better in India.. or is useless for us.
There are Pakistani members that are as guilty of the above as Indians.. and Chinese ones...and others..
BUT they all post.. they too get banned.. and suspended when they drift into nonsense.

Even us TT's get a warning if we lose our cool with a member..for whatever reason... we too can be suspended.

Nothing is perfect..
But compared to what Ive seen out there.. Defence.pk is better than most.




Now..
that the wandering out of topic is complete..
I was having a discussion with a professor from QAU..
The same question of "what is the Pakistani identity" came up..
The crux of his conclusion was that an embrace of the cultural roots is important.. and that the difference between the Indian's and US.. was the embodiment of the Islamic identity into our lives...both culturally and genetically.. is what has now given us an Identity.. but its not with Islamization..but embracing our diversity...yet celebrating it with the spirit of Islam..if I phrased this all correctly.
 
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@Joe

First..
What I have come to painfully understand..is that only 1/5 people are who they are in front of you..as they are behind you..or in this case..behind an IP.

Yet..during my visits.. I did notice a lot of misconceptions about Pakistan..
depending on the education level.. people think of Pakistan is either a land of Bearded "akhtoo's".. or people stuck in the 60's.
Those that do know..seem to take our balanced lot as a minority..rather than the majority.
Pre Mumbai attacks the focus was on terrorism in debates..the ISI..the Lal Masjid incident..
and I was taken to this cafe next to a posh school.. Christian saint... and asked if something like that place existed in pakistan..(really neat place.. art deco interior.. wifi.. good latte )..

Dont take me wrong.. 4/5 of the people I met.. I wont forget.. had a blast..
But there were those who showed contempt..and a 3/5 a condescending attitude..
Compared to that.. 45/50 Indian's here tend to display it..

It isnt that changed on the other side.. too much.. after all.. being fed on false history does that..
But are these people to decide the course of the two nation's relations..
Where one population talks of air strikes and quick military action as if its a walk in the park.. and the other promises all out war..and nuclear retaliation..as if there is a tomorrow after that??

It is scary to even suppose so...
there are lies told here.. and lies told on the other end.. some small some great..
I will step out a foot extra and say that the mistakes began on our side.. even if by leaders that chose to lie to us.. they were still our leaders.. and we are responsible for letting them sit on their thrones..
But it does fall upon India.. and Indians.. to take even the single..smallest hand of friendship..and pull it close..

what if the new Indian demand of having the all the perpetrators of 26/11 being brought to justice never come true.. will you stay the same??.. prepare for war..even after I have grown up kids..will the tune of terrorism be sung..
If it is our military you fear.. then bypass it.. talk to the ones that will..
How can they stop it?.. another bomb.. talk to the people more..ignore those you mistrust.. and you may even end up taking your biggest fear out of the equation once and for all.
 
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The Sufi Saints were responsible for the vast, vast majority of conversions to Islam. My own Jatt clan, and other warrior cultures such as the Rajputs and others would have never been forcibly converted.

And if people were converted by force, what prevented them from going back to their previous religion.

It is a fact that the Sufi, through their poetry, living example, and simplicity and devotion to Islamic Values, won over the people of the Geographic Area of Pakistan.

Even today the Sufi Shrines are revered by people of all religions including Hindu and Sikhs.
:pakistan:

just a little correction here.
There is absolutely nothing common in Sufism and Islam. Both are poles apart.
Any person having good knowledge of Islam would tell you that Sufism is actually a child born out of Islam.
Islam is founded on the two revelations: the Quran and Sunnah, and all that is not taken from the Quran and Sunnah is anything but Islamic.
Sufism is a borrowed philosophy(from Persia), but a separate ideology alien and in opposition to Islam.

Mod Edit: Offensive word removed
 
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Sir i disagree with ur remarks... Sufism is mysticism...you can read Imam Ghazali's books...that guy was a majadid ( a person which comes after every hundred years) to revive the faith in the hearts of people....like when akbar made deen-e-ilahi God sent Mujaddid Alf Thāni to counter this and thus Islam and muslims were saved in the subcontinent.

What you are saying is the opinion of a minority of muslims mainly salafis .... while if u go across the muslim world u will find sufi orders across caucasus, north africa, central asia , subcontinent.

Yes some people following this are misguided thus people begin to critisize sufism...it is just Islamic mysticysm to improve your character and your relationship with God
 
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