Hypothetical - Can IAF be wiped out in 10 hour or 12 hours by PLAAF?

[Dustom999]

There was an interesting exchange on the subject in some other thread. @Dustom999, why don't you join in, if you are so inclined, and explain about the peculiarities of high altitude operations?


There is something very peculiar about that topography.

In the east, it is the exact mirror image of India on a plateau facing Pakistan on a lower level, with disputed ravines and ridges and high mountain ranges in between. It is tempting to think that, except for militants coming in, the Indian Army can adopt a mirror image of the tactics used against it in the Kashmir area.

MOST of Tibet is quite unlikely the Galwan River topography; it is flat plateau, interspersed by rough country. Or perhaps Galwan River magnified a thousand times - horizontally.

I am no expert, nor really up to date with whats going on with technical capabilities of various forces across the globe.
Haven't even read the previous discussion in here, from what i gather, with very limited reading, much discussed need of 6:1 ratios or sometimes even 10:1 ratio of offensive force, limits to pincers in mountains, security of flanks and tactics there to, being discussed in various forums ( here as well as others) are so 1980 things.
Limitations that logistics, communications, delivery etal faced pre 2000, have changed drastically. Not that now these aren't problems anymore, however nature of them has changed with influxes of technology.
Battlefield management assisted by AI is the thing of today and sway the outcome towards better manager.
Both India and china (army) are still defensive forces and both are yet not confident in their offensive powers.
However Both possess defensive clutches to inflict very heavy cost of men and materials to the aggressor, to bring the parties to table for talks. Discounting use of WMDs,I am only talking about conventional operations in conflict zone.
China PLA has, in last decade or two managed to go into overdrive and is now becoming a centrally controlled system driven force. With whole theater being digitally available on a SAP like system for logistics, movement and sharing of intelligence in real time with relevant teams.
They have been able to cut the size of sheer manpower and still improve lethality.
India is still atleast a decade behind on information front and still fighting very much like decade of 1980 ( Ofcourse with improved weapons and information) but missing digotalsystem organised command and control.
As far as terrain on present border of J&K, specially towards china, i believe atleast on present LaC is pretty much similar, presents same challenges at cross over points. China
has advantages of plains of Tibet where they can regroup, stage defence, setup nodes in case of a long ongoing war with India.
India Ofcourse will counter with reducing troop density at any one specific area, Hit battalion sized targets,inflict pain
and retreat to next points of ambush. Letting them in towards pre determined traps.
A trapped force, cut-off from rear and not able to advance at speeds as desired makes commanders nervous.
Ofcourse planning and area denial to Chinese air force will be critical for any of this to be successful.

 

[achhu]

After careful calculations and different scenario analysis I have come up with conclusion that IAF will loose it’s complete air borne capabilities in first 8 hours in full scale war

You have a right to agree or disagree with my analysis

it would be better if you can elaborate how did you come up to eight hours time ? i mean your calculations?

 

[Joe Shearer]

just for you Joey.

OMIGOD! He's so cute!! What's his name? What was his weight?

 

[LeGenD]

I am no expert, nor really up to date with whats going on with technical capabilities of various forces across the globe.
Haven't even read the previous discussion in here, from what i gather, with very limited reading, much discussed need of 6:1 ratios or sometimes even 10:1 ratio of offensive force, limits to pincers in mountains, security of flanks and tactics there to, being discussed in various forums ( here as well as others) are so 1980 things.
Limitations that logistics, communications, delivery etal faced pre 2000, have changed drastically. Not that now these aren't problems anymore, however nature of them has changed with influxes of technology.
Battlefield management assisted by AI is the thing of today and sway the outcome towards better manager.
Both India and china (army) are still defensive forces and both are yet not confident in their offensive powers.
However Both possess defensive clutches to inflict very heavy cost of men and materials to the aggressor, to bring the parties to table for talks. Discounting use of WMDs,I am only talking about conventional operations in conflict zone.
China PLA has, in last decade or two managed to go into overdrive and is now becoming a centrally controlled system driven force. With whole theater being digitally available on a SAP like system for logistics, movement and sharing of intelligence in real time with relevant teams.
They have been able to cut the size of sheer manpower and still improve lethality.
India is still atleast a decade behind on information front and still fighting very much like decade of 1980 ( Ofcourse with improved weapons and information) but missing digotalsystem organised command and control.
As far as terrain on present border of J&K, specially towards china, i believe atleast on present LaC is pretty much similar, presents same challenges at cross over points. China
has advantages of plains of Tibet where they can regroup, stage defence, setup nodes in case of a long ongoing war with India.
India Ofcourse will counter with reducing troop density at any one specific area, Hit battalion sized targets,inflict pain
and retreat to next points of ambush. Letting them in towards pre determined traps.
A trapped force, cut-off from rear and not able to advance at speeds as desired makes commanders nervous.
Ofcourse planning and area denial to Chinese air force will be critical for any of this to be successful.

Deep and rich. Thanks for the share.

So PLAAF posit a major challenge to IAF and dealing with it is the hardest part? This is the impression.

China can win a limited-war over the border, this much was admitted in this thread.

However, wholesale invasion of India as well as to establish complete air superiority over its airspace in a span of a day was deemed impractical objective throughout.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Honestly I don't think so! To which is the PLAAF "stretched out"? (or do you mean they have their forces distributed around several Theater Commands? (that might be correct given the units involved). Or do you mean with theateres, the SCS, ECS with Taiwan and NCS with Japan?

But again IMO this operation is not yet a PLAAF one and IMO the PLAAF - besides surveying/reconnaissance, probing a bit the Indian defence lines and collecting data with the EW-assets - is still not involved. As such it has no issues to be "stretched out in so many theaters".

Frankly, this is still a police action with the political leadership of both sides arm-wrestling each other; I was shocked when there was that outbreak of violence, but later realised what might have happened.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

OMIGOD! He's so cute!! What's his name? What was his weight?

Waliullah

he was born 7 lbs and at 3 months is 13 lbs.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

If India Leaves Kashmir , and just surrenders it would be a victory in loss because India will retain remainder of country

There is no point to fight China and Pakistan , just vacate Kashmir and may be things will resolve

China Takes Ladakh, Pakistan Takes Kashmir (Which technically belongs to Pakistan)
Problem solved

Kashmir never belonged to India in first place , so if you remove this region from equation
China is Happy, Pakistan is Happy


If India simply leaves the whole Kashmir region (which never really belonged to them) then there will be no conflict and chance to lose more Indian Territory to China

It is in the fate of Hindus to eventually lose.

Let things be.

 

[jaibi]

Happy for you, brother Mashallah he is cuteness overloaded!

Waliullah

he was born 7 lbs and at 3 months is 13 lbs.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Oh, man.

Just finished writing a narrative about a fiercely fought battle. About soldiers whose bunkers and trenches were overrun, and still fought back. About soldiers fighting them whose tanks were blown up, one after another, in front of them, and still fought back.

And you tag me for this ludicrous thread by some keyboard kiddy who had an empty twenty minutes to fill.

What did I do to you? Why are you making me read - what do I call it without getting kicked in the arse by @LeGenD - 'stuff' by @AZADPAKISTAN2009?

It's a rough transition, from trying to pore through a dozen books, to figure out which formation provided the tanks for their attack on the 8th, to a post that says



What did I do to you,@Nilgiri, to deserve this?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
I am writing this out of respect for @LeGenD, and NOTHING MORE. That member whose posts have edified us for more than a decade, not the Moderator. Out of respect for my own time and limited time left to do these things, I will not answer frivolous idiots. Or frivolous idiocies.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

The facts:

• How many soldiers and armed policemen in Kashmir has no bearing on a discussion, however wildly unlikely, on how many hours to total the Indian Air Force.
• For the record, and for the sake of the mighty irritation that it caused me to see the crap being shovelled around, please consult widely available orders of battle available as open source information.
  • The Vale is handled by one (1) Army Corps, XV Corps.
  • It has less than 10% of the fighting strength of the Indian Army.
  • It also has, at any given time, units of the Rashtriya Rifles, who together consist of 50,000 soldiers, about three (3) divisions worth of soldiers, not attached to any of the regular divisions.
  • The Jammu region, lower down, has the strongest Corps of the Indian Army, XVI Corps.
  • Kargil is monitored by one (1) Division.
  • Siachen is monitored by one (1) Brigade.
  • That division at Kargil is part of another, separate Corps, XIV Corps, that has the task of guarding Kargil, guarding Siachen and guarding the Line of Actual Control.
  • XIV Corps has recently been reinforced. Troops have been moved in,
    • some from the RR units, who are regular soldiers on deputation from their formations to the RR, and who are not needed at this quiescent state of the Vale,
    • some others from units not responsible for either the LOC, the international border with Pakistan or the Line of Actual Control with the PRC in Ladakh, or the MacMahon Line;
    • Their numbers and particulars are not relevant to the discussion, even peripherally.

So much for that 70% metric.

@LeGenD
@dbc
@AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dear Gentlemen,

There are certain posts and certain members whom I shall never give oxygen; never give them the acknowledgement that they crave.

Questions have been raised about the fighting spirit of Indian aviators, and I submit my contribution to the discussion through these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmal_Jit_Singh_Sekhon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajjamada_B._Devaiah

These issues are the kinds of innuendo and petty insult that the ignorant peddle. The central issue is the outcome of a conflict between the PLA AF and the IAF, in a limited-scope conflict, and in an open and unlimited war, or even a war with two adversaries in the field. Those need detailed discussion, so it is better to separate them out and put them in a separate post. Please bear with me.

Both sides have depth.

But Indian losses are going to be much higher since population centers are closer.

 

[LeGenD]

@Mangus Ortus Novem

Thanks for your beautiful contribution. Rich and deep.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Mangus Ortus Novem

Thanks for your beautiful contribution. Rich and deep.

He shocked me.

Both sides have depth.

But Indian losses are going to be much higher since population centers are closer.

....if there is population centre bombing, and if the conflict is not restricted to remote battle-fields.

 

[LeGenD]

This thread has motivated a number of members, bringing out the best in them to contribute.

This is what I wanted to establish; this forum has much potential for quality contributions.

Once trolling is put on the leach, magic happens.

 

[Nasr]

The IAF has severe technical gaps in its capability as demonstrated on Feb-27 by the PAF.

the PLAAF will have significant numerical (3010+ Aircraft) and technological superiority (stealth aircraft and dedicated strategic bombers)in the Indian occupied Chinese territory according to Wikipedia

the Hamalyian mountain range will give significant cover to PLAAF not to mention the higher refueling and detection (AWACS platforms) and electronic warfare (ELINT) capability

will the IAF be completely wiped out in 10 or 12 hours like in the case of Iraq and America in the first gulf war?

is the force comparison not similar ?

I look forward to your response?

KV

source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Air_Force

Brother, you seemed to have left out the fact that Iraq stood all alone in the region when it was attacked by the zionists. A whole coalition went up against Iraq, namely NATO and the blind leadership of the Muslim World. Iran actively wanted the Iraqi regime to fall and the Saudi regime was pathetic enough to be zionist lapdogs.

China ought to recognize the pivotal importance of having a coalition when it goes to war. China also must increase and improve it's nuclear arsenal to keep america in check.

 

[Sabretooth]

This is what I joined the PDF for but since then very very few threads have led to constructive discussion and became a source of worthy knowledge. Forum quality revival has been long overdue.

 

[PradoTLC]

In China vs US, Pakistan has taken a side. It serves the army


https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...es-the-army/story-jXuXxFjSF1vr8naQtQPHDN.html


These vege burgers seem up set we didn’t the Hindu god trump....