Hyperpower China- Pakistan?

[RazorMC]

When Japanese economy started rolling every one thought Japan will eclipse USA economy. Contrary thing happened Japanese economy become stagnant for almost 20 years now.

The same thing is going to happen China and the signs are there.

1) Rising wages
2) Aging populations
3) Housing bubble
4) Deceasing GDP growth.

The predictions may project China to be an economic giant within 20 to 30 years eclipsing USA but the reality may be completely different.

Chinese followed the same model of Japanese, the results will be the same.

Yes, an export-driven economy will stagnate at some point. Eventually there will be a limit to what the US and EU markets can import.
But China also has a rapidly growing consumer market for its own products. Will it be able to provide the same support it did during the recesion? We will have to see.

 

[Kompromat]

China wants us to be their 2IC in South & Central Asia, we are geographically well placed to do it so why not?

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

I'm not sure how well you know Intl Relations, but here is the pyramid of power;



HyperPower

SuperPower

GreatPower

RegionalPower

MiddlePower

SmallPower


If you're looking at Power in a global sense. If as a Regional;


Hyper/SuperPower

GreatPower

MiddlePower

SmallPower


You can view each power in terms of geography. In Asia, China is a rising Superpower, while India & Japan would be GreatPowers. In S. America Brazil is a GreatPower, with Germany, France, UK, Russia being GreatPowers in Europe and the Nordic countries, Spain, Italy, Poland(Perhaps) being MiddlePowers. But once you expand the geopolitical scope you're observing these countries can go down a rank or two.


You can claim your country has whatever level of power, but showing it is quite different. HyperPower is a nation that is unchallenged in any sphere of influence. Be it in Economics, Diplomacy, Science/ Medicine, Military. China does have the numbers, say there 1.3 billion people having the capita comparable to the Germany or Canada, even per capita to Spain or Brazil would make it the largest economy in the world. The Diplomatic and Economic of China are one in one. Using it's economic powers it has invested Billions of Dollars into undeveloped countries to siphon it's natural resources which it can sell back at a higher price because it refined them into products. It's developing it's Military to deter any regional aggression, but still untested.


China is reestablishing itself again to what America was in it's infancy up to 1880s. While it now has more constraints upon itself. A globalized economy, international norms, international organizations, international political systems that need fine tuning for diplomacy.


There's no doubt China is a rising Power. It's where to rank it currently? GreatPower is a given, but SuperPower in terms of global view? Chinese policy has been Prosperity through Peace. To not draw attention to it's self as a threat to the established quota, but it will draw attention and has. The neighboring nations can try to create alliances to deter any overt Chinese aggression but Chinese influence exceeds over their national boundaries. Would the world risk a potential Economic Depression to teach China a "lesson"? Or Appease it and reset the line in the sand. It's what China will do after it acquires it? That brings fear. Will China develop into a human rights figure once it has developed Power? Or will it languish as an oppressor in modern times. The territorial ambitions themselves.


I would say, the US was a HyperPower after the fall of the soviet union to the 2008 Financial Recession. But as with any classification, Power will only be recognized in the future.

If I remember correctly, Pakistan also rode 'the wave' with the US.

 

[wiseone2]

@nForce First of all thank you. I appreciate positive comments. I come to this forum to have intelligent debate but too often I end up side tracked into just silliness. It is a weakness of mine. The more tired I am, the more procivity to jump in with the idiots here.

Anyway I will address the points you made tommorow. I think we are going to go through profound change and that includes India. This entire region is going to look differant in few decades. Frankly i wish we could sort out the Kashmir issue but that is for another thread.

When I say hyperpower I am not thinking like lot of the kids here, and counting number of tanks or guns. I mean the gross economic power. That is what will make China a hyperpower. Of course should India achieve say $15k GDP multiply that with 1.3 billion and you also will be hyperpower. It is just plain maths.

The main thing I am looking forward to is the possibility of change in Pakistani mindset. The Pakistani mind has been corroded by religious ritualism and dogma to the point where it hinders economic progress or for that matter any progress. I am hoping this is where China could be a example that obliges us to temper the illogical delusional grandeaur of wanton religiousity.

How do you make Pakistanis follow the example of Chinese ? They are different race, different culture, different religion, different outlook and different world view.

Other than economic compulsion and a drastic change in behavior of some Chinese citizens I do not see anyone trying to imitate Chinese culture or practices. The reason is simple - technology.

In 19th century a British official living in remote area of India would interact with the natives. There was no telephone or internet to communicate with folks in England. Whether he liked the brown skinned folks or not he had to interact with them. Some of them were cursing us. Some of them changed for the better.

Right now a Chinese worker in Baluchistan could go back home after work and communicate with friends & family in China. Without any kind of true interaction from the Chinese it is hard for anyone to build cultural bridges with anyone.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

When I said I look forward to the positive effects of rise of China I meant things quite differant to how you have taken them.

The postive influence will not be in Pakistani's learning to speak in Chinese, eating Chinese, or going 'native' so to speak. Far from that. The economic influence will create leverage on the country to conduct and behave in a manner that is business like and that Pakistan can tango with the Chinese.

These effects already are there. One of the strongest destructive and irrational reflex in Pakistan that has taken root bin the country is the religiousity. The stomach maybe empty, the skinny starved legs maybe quivering because of hunger but too many Pakistani's will be bothered about some well fed, well educated Palestinian, a well fed, well educated Chechen, a well fed Muslim in America. It is this bizzare habit of wanting to burden the entire ummah's problems on thrier shoulders.

This is borene out by Pakistani's being involved in such diseparate incidents like London bombing, Texas or even KSM of 9/11. However when was the last time you heard about these self appointed starving ummah protectors saying anything about Uighurs? Now am not going say anything because I know for a fact that my Uighur brothers are being treated in the better than any Muslim minority in the world. Do you see the considered silence?

This shows already Chinese influence is imposing some much needed "shut it" and discipline. I expect more of this much needed "discipline" on the state and society. The army is raising almost detaching three brigades to protect the expected influx of Chinese workers. That is what I mean by influence that imposes some "discipline" on state and people to behave themselves or "friendship higher than Himalyas and deeper than oceans" is going to vanish faster than sweet rice in the hands of a Mullah.

China being a secular state unlike Saudia is by it's very nature going impose certain ways of behaving which can't be a bad thing in our case.

 

[wiseone2]

When I said I look forward to the positive effects of rise of China I meant things quite differant to how you have taken them.

The postive influence will not be in Pakistani's learning to speak in Chinese, eating Chinese, or going 'native' so to speak. Far from that. The economic influence will create leverage on the country to conduct and behave in a manner that is business like and that Pakistan can tango with the Chinese.

These effects already are there. One of the strongest destructive and irrational reflex in Pakistan that has taken root bin the country is the religiousity. The stomach maybe empty, the skinny starved legs maybe quivering because of hunger but too many Pakistani's will be bothered about some well fed, well educated Palestinian, a well fed, well educated Chechen, a well fed Muslim in America. It is this bizzare habit of wanting to burden the entire ummah's problems on thrier shoulders.

This is borene out by Pakistani's being involved in such diseparate incidents like London bombing, Texas or even KSM of 9/11. However when was the last time you heard about these self appointed starving ummah protectors saying anything about Uighurs? Now am not going say anything because I know for a fact that my Uighur brothers are being treated in the better than any Muslim minority in the world. Do you see the considered silence?

This shows already Chinese influence is imposing some much needed "shut it" and discipline. I expect more of this much needed "discipline" on the state and society. The army is raising almost detaching three brigades to protect the expected influx of Chinese workers. That is what I mean by influence that imposes some "discipline" on state and people to behave themselves or "friendship higher than Himalyas and deeper than oceans" is going to vanish faster than sweet rice in the hands of a Mullah.

China being a secular state unlike Saudia is by it's very nature going impose certain ways of behaving which can't be a bad thing in our case.

Pakistani do not complain about Uiygur because your military discourages it. I am sure there are some true believers. Pakistani military manufactures support for Islamic fundamentalist causes by giving some of these wackos a megaphone, political backing and money. Without the support of the Pakistani military Islamic fundamentalists would be marginalized.

Can the Chinese economic influence change Pakistani society ? I am sure there will be economic benefits. I am skeptical because I have seen the impact of the IT industry on India. In some ways some things changed. In other ways things stay the same.

 

[Dalit]

The 19th century was defined by Britain, the 20th century was defined by USA and I believe the 21 century is going to be defined by China. The world is going to look lot differantby end of this century then it did at the dawn of this century.

I do not think USA is going to go down. The fundamentals of US are strong - large, highly educated labour force, a extremely resource rich land and the aggregate inertia of century of innovation. So this thread is not one of those silly 'end of super power' doomsday celebrations.

However I feel China will toward the later half of this century become a 'hyperpower'. When and there is no question about this, the only questions how long, China's per capita reaches average of Western Europe or say like Spain the effect of that being multiplied by 1.3 billion population of China will create a new phenomenon. A country whose GDP will be so large that it will eclipse even the sole superpower USA. Thus the term hyperpower.

US will remain the superpower just that we will have a entrant that is so large that it's shadow will even make US reduced in it's influence in the world. I reiterate this not to say US will go the way USSR went. Like I said earlier US will continue to be significant world player for a long time.

This increasing will lead to a changing world order. I think it will offer Pakistan unbounded oppurtunities. If we play it smart Pakistan could ride 'the wave' like most if Europe has done on the back of USA. Although Pakistan also benefited from USA but the relationship between us and US never reached maturity not because of US infamy or our failure. I think we simply were too far from USA.

However in the case of China it is a differant story. We share a border with them. I think as China rises the wave will lift us up as well as long as we play smart and 'ride' the way. I want people's inputs on what the future holds, the oppurtunities and what we can do to maximise the impending rise of the the 'hyperpower'.

Just a note about relations between states. I find it frankly tedious and childish when people talk about interstate relationships like they are in nursery playground. States are legal entities and operate with self interest as the engine behind their foreign policy. In other words there is no fre lunch and no room for emotionalism. Words like 'brother', 'backstabbed', 'not fair' are ridicalous. Even if they are used these should be taken as diplomatic oxymorons. The real business of running countries requires cool heads with Machiavellian self interest governing everything.

The Chinese are in my view the masters of this statecraft. Their ancient culture has genius and wisdom. Without a doubt it these qualities that will take China to hyperpower status. You can see for example despite how well they are doing they are so modest. Chinese have probably built more miles of roads in one year then India, Pakistan combined have done in 20 years yet you don't se the bluster or bragging that is so characteristic of South Asia.

Consider the fact that the only country on the planet that will at some point have the military capacity to challenge USA yet notice the Chinese are so apologetic in their stance toward USA. Compare that with us in Pakistan. We get 17 F-16s bought on grants from USA and some of our people want to flex muscles and posture the sole superpower like they are on a field with some Lahori wrestlers.

Anyway lets have look at what rise of the hyperpower will do to the region and what we can do in Pakistan to max out our advantage.

Hit the nail on its head bro. I cannot anything to your words of wisdom.

 

[OneMORETime]

Hyperpower? Even USA with its NATO allies doesn't claim to be hyperpower..

Pak Chin hyperpower WHAT A JOKE...