How you rank your identities

[F86 Saber]

1) Pakistani
2) Pakistani
3) Pakistani
4) Pakistani
5) Human (Humanity comes after Pakistan, if my country needs it, i would do anything inhuman)
6) Madridista
7) Pizza Lover

 

[Signalian]

Spirituality....which keeps me attached to islam, Humanity, Pakistan and being a Human.

 

[Deadpool]

Indian.
No other identifier needed.

However, the Indian members have called themselves Indians first, even though they might support the Hindutva agenda of the BJP. It's a contradiction, because they should be supporting the rights of their Indian Muslim brethren over their Hindu values. But that's not the case.

I can understand secular Hindus (Congress supporters) calling themselves Indians first, but not BJP supporters who support Hindutva.

You are wrong on multiple counts.

1. Hindu values means supporting all lives - whether human or non-human. All life is sacred. We donot make artificial distinctions that religions like Islam and Christianity do.

A true Hindu follows Dharm. The path of righteousness.

2. Secular Hindus also vote for BJP.

BJP is more than just Hindutva though as being a Pakistani you are hardly expected to know either of the two points mentioned above considering the level of brainwashing and hate against Hindus and Indians systemically taught to Pakistanis.

 

[sbh02]

Indian.
No other identifier needed.


You are wrong on multiple counts.

1. Hindu values means supporting all lives - whether human or non-human. All life is sacred. We donot make artificial distinctions that religions like Islam and Christianity do.

So why do you have distinctions between Hindus and others? Why do you have specific Hindutva laws of beef bans, and mob lynchings in your country? Why do you support ghar waapsi and Love Jihad? If all humans are equal, and all life is sacred, you shouldn't care if people eat cows, or if Muslim men are with Hindu women; after all, your words, you do not make artificial distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus like Islam and Christianity do.

Forget about distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus, you make distinctions within Hindus as well, with your caste system.

BJP is more than just Hindutva though as being a Pakistani you are hardly expected to know either of the two points mentioned above considering the level of brainwashing and hate systemically taught against Hindus and Indians to Pakistanis.

I have many Hindu friends, Pakistani Hindus, Indian Hindus; many Indian friends. I have no hate for Hindus or Indians. But you are being a hypocrite.

We saw the communal-ism that the Modi sarkar promoted in U.P. to get votes. What happened was Hindutva politics at its best, pitting the Hindus against all the non-Hindus.

 

[Deadpool]

So why do you have distinctions between Hindus and others? Why do you have specific Hindutva laws of beef bans, and mob lynchings in your country? Why do you support ghar waapsi and Love Jihad? If all humans are equal, and all life is sacred, you shouldn't care if people eat cows, or if Muslim men are with Hindu women; after all, your words, you do not make artificial distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus like Islam and Christianity do.

You show your ignorance once again. It is this distinction that riles Hindus. The way Muslims are allowed to have separate laws despite being a secular country.
The fact that Muslims are given free trips for Hajj
The fact that Muslim and Christian schools are exempt from the accounting standards that apply to the rest of Indians.
The fact that Hindu temples and treasury are under Government of India's control whereas Muslims and Christian places of worship and treasuries are under their own control - resulting in Muslims and Christians having money to proselytize while Dharmic trusts did not.

Government of India/Congress(historically) was comfortable and promoted having these massive distinctions between people of the same country that is WHY the Hindus,Sikhs,Budhists and Jains were up crossed about why their religious rights not be treated the same way the way Congress treated Muslims and Christians.

Congress forgot this is not the British raj where they allowed the minority to oppress the majority legally.

The Dharmics(collectively the 4 religions) voted in BJP to remove these anomalies.

Either allow the Dharmic laws to be applicable in full like the Muslims are allowed or remove them for the Muslims as well.

Forget about distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus, you make distinctions within Hindus as well, with your caste system.

That is a social practice. Anyone who practices that is not a true Hindu. They have strayed from the right path. Fortunately as India is progressing, Hindus are coming back to their faith. Caste discrimination is on the fall dramatically.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/R0...BJPs-rise-made-Indias-youth-less-liberal.html

I have many Hindu friends, Pakistani Hindus, Indian Hindus; many Indian friends. I have no hate for Hindus or Indians.

Lies of the usual kind by Pakistanis.

 

[adil_minhas]

So why do you have distinctions between Hindus and others? Why do you have specific Hindutva laws of beef bans, and mob lynchings in your country? Why do you support ghar waapsi and Love Jihad? If all humans are equal, and all life is sacred, you shouldn't care if people eat cows, or if Muslim men are with Hindu women; after all, your words, you do not make artificial distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus like Islam and Christianity do.

Forget about distinctions between Hindus and non-Hindus, you make distinctions within Hindus as well, with your caste system.



I have many Hindu friends, Pakistani Hindus, Indian Hindus; many Indian friends. I have no hate for Hindus or Indians. But you are being a hypocrite.

We saw the communal-ism that the Modi sarkar promoted in U.P. to get votes. What happened was Hindutva politics at its best, pitting the Hindus against all the non-Hindus.

All Pakistanis magically seem to have "many Hindu friends" Looking at the population of Hindus in the Pakistani total, these Hindus must have pan-nation popularity that's off the charts.

 

[sbh02]

All Pakistanis magically seem to have "many Hindu friends" Looking at the population of Hindus in the Pakistani total, these Hindus must have pan-nation popularity that's off the charts.

I have lived in Sindh (Hyderabad) before, there are many Hindus there.

If you ever visit Sindh, you will see how prevalent Hindus and Hinduism is there.

 

[adil_minhas]

I have lived in Sindh (Hyderabad) before, there are many Hindus there.

If you ever visit Sindh, you will see how prevalent Hindus and Hinduism is there.

I apologize if you think I was pointing you out.

Its just that in my interactions, when Indians tend to point out to Pakistanis that all they really know of Hindus is mainly hearsay, we normally get to hear how each of them has many Hindu friends.

It does lead to the logical confusion as to where so many Hindus are coming from in 97% Muslim Pakistan.

 

[sbh02]

You show your ignorance once again. It is this distinction that riles Hindus. The way Muslims are allowed to have separate laws despite being a secular country.

But we're not claiming that our Pakistani and Muslim identities are synonymous, the way you are claiming your Indian and Hindu identity are.

The fact that Muslims are given free trips for Hajj
The fact that Muslim and Christian schools are exempt from the accounting standards that apply to the rest of Indians.
The fact that Hindu temples and treasury are under Government of India's control whereas Muslims and Christian places of worship and treasuries are under their own control.

Government of India/Congress(historically) was comfortable and promoted having these massive distinctions between people of the same country that is WHY the Hindus,Sikhs,Budhists and Jains were up crossed about why their religious rights not be treated the same way the way Congress treated Muslims and Christians.

Congress forgot this is not the British raj where they allowed the minority to oppress the majority legally.

The Dharmics(collectively the 4 religions) voted in BJP to remove these anomalies.

Either allow the Dharmic laws to be applicable in full like the Muslims are allowed or remove them for the Muslims as well.

That is a social practice. Anyone who practices that is not a true Hindu. They have strayed from the right path. Fortunately as India is progressing, Hindus are coming back to their faith. Caste discrimination is on the fall dramatically.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/R0...BJPs-rise-made-Indias-youth-less-liberal.html

Lies of the usual kind by Pakistanis.

Forget about what the government does, Hindus (like people from all other religions) are discriminatory towards non-Hindus. I can quote you many examples where Hindutva =/= Indian nationalism, there are many examples from this BJP sarkar.

You can cover it under the garb of social practice, but the same excuses can be made of Islam, that it is social practice, and people who practice those things are not true Muslims.

But just like Islam, Hinduism is also a reflection of its followers, and their "social practices". And that shows that Hindutva =/= Indian nationalism.

I apologize if you think I was pointing you out.

Its just that in my interactions, when Indians tend to point out to Pakistanis that all they really know of Hindus is mainly hearsay, we normally get to hear how each of them has many Hindu friends.

It does lead to the logical confusion as to where so many Hindus are coming from in 97% Muslim Pakistan.

If you go to Sindh, there are over 4 million Hindus there. They make up 8-9% of Sindh's total population.

Yes, I did not come across Hindus when I lived in Punjab (there are about 3-4 million Christians in Punjab btw), but when I lived in Sindh for 2 years, I came a lot of Sindhi Hindus at my workplace, and I immersed myself in Sindhi culture there.

I apologize if you think I was pointing you out.

Its just that in my interactions, when Indians tend to point out to Pakistanis that all they really know of Hindus is mainly hearsay, we normally get to hear how each of them has many Hindu friends.

It does lead to the logical confusion as to where so many Hindus are coming from in 97% Muslim Pakistan.

Another difference between India and Pakistan is, that despite the low % of minorities in this country, we do not live in segregated neighborhoods here, unlike India.

It is very common for Muslims and Christians to live in the same neighborhoods in Punjab, it is very common for Hindus and Muslims to live in the same neighborhoods in Sindh.

We do not discriminate in housing based on people's religions. We do not have Hindu or Christian ghettos here, unlike the Muslim ghettos in UP, Bihar, Jharkhand etc in India.

 

[Deadpool]

But we're not claiming that our Pakistani and Muslim identities are synonymous, the way you are claiming your Indian and Hindu identity are.

You seem to be living in a parallel world. A majority of Pakistanis (even as evidenced on this forum) put their identity as Muslim = Pakistani or Muslim first and Pakistani second. The word you used "we're" is not applicable. Considering the data we have, the word you can use is "I".

Secondly, I never claimed that Indian and Hindu identities are the same. Neither did the majority of Indians on this forum. In fact, an overwhelming majority of Indians on this forum ranked their national identity as their sole identity or as the primary identity surpassing their religious affiliation.

What you have done is a classic switch. You switched the responses of most Indians with that of most Pakistanis.

Forget about what the government does, Hindus (like people from all other religions) are discriminatory towards non-Hindus. I can quote you many examples where Hindutva =/= Indian nationalism, there are many examples from this BJP sarkar.

You can cover it under the garb of social practice, but the same excuses can be made of Islam, that it is social practice, and people who practice those things are not true Muslims.

But just like Islam, Hinduism is also a reflection of its followers, and their "social practices". And that shows that Hindutva =/= Indian nationalism.

Excuse me?
Was it not you who started the discussion on religious laws like the ones on beef ban in a secular state?
Now, on proving to the contrary that Dharmics are infact riled over the the differences in laws afforded to Muslims and Christians in India and that Dharmics in fact want these different laws removed, you conveniently throw out the statement 'forget about what the government does'.

In any case, this is the internet, i doubt anyone changes his preconceived notions based on discussions here.

That said, you and I are both saying the same thing over and over again - Hindutva is not equal to Indian nationalism. What the Dharmic people of India want is equality of laws in India.

As far as the statement of Hinduism being a reflection of its followers, I don't contest that. If you read the link I posted you would see just how dramatically caste discrimination is falling in India. Its downright rapid. So even using that as a yardstick, I am satisfied. The present trend will make sure that Hindus leave the abhorrent practice of casteism in just a generation.
The result will be a united block of Hindus.

Here, I am sure you did not go through the news report I posted. Try to read it now at the very least. Its a topic that will probably interest you.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/R0...BJPs-rise-made-Indias-youth-less-liberal.html

 

[adil_minhas]

Another difference between India and Pakistan is, that despite the low % of minorities in this country, we do not live in segregated neighborhoods here, unlike India.

It is very common for Muslims and Christians to live in the same neighborhoods in Punjab, it is very common for Hindus and Muslims to live in the same neighborhoods in Sindh.

We do not discriminate in housing based on people's religions. We do not have Hindu or Christian ghettos here, unlike the Muslim ghettos in UP, Bihar, Jharkhand etc in India.

That is because you do not have 200 million Hindus or Christians living in your country.

 

[sbh02]

Secondly, I never claimed that Indian and Hindu identities are the same. Neither did the majority of Indians on this forum. In fact, an overwhelming majority of Indians on this forum ranked their national identity as their sole identity or as the primary identity surpassing their religious affiliation.

Then they are lying and in denial, because they support Ghar Waapsi, Beef Ban, Love Jihad etc. That shows their religious affiliation surpasses their national identity. At least we Pakistanis are not in denial about where we stand.

Excuse me?
Was it not you who started the discussion on religious laws like the ones on beef ban in a secular state?

If you and your countrymen support religious Hindutva laws in your country that disadvantage non-Hindus (beef ban), you may wrongly call yourself as an Indian nationalist, but you are actually a Hindutva and Modi bhakht.

Now, on proving to the contrary that Dharmics are infact riled over the the differences in laws afforded to Muslims and Christians in India and that Dharmics in fact want these different laws removed, you conveniently throw out the statement 'forget about what the government does'.

Do you want me to show you all the statements made by your sarkar about mandirs vs mosques?

What the Dharmic people of India want is equality of laws in India.

These are the lies of the Modi sarkar and bhakhts. They project that the minorities in India are favored over the Hindus. This is the very definition of communalism. Read the Sachar Commission Report, and countless other human rights reports to see the conditions of minorities in India, and how the state discriminates against minorities.

That is because you do not have 200 million Hindus or Christians living in your country.

Yes, but numbers are numbers. Forget the 200 million figure for the country, go to any Indian city. There will be what, a fraction of minorities there.

Can you show me one location in India where Hindus and Muslims co-exist in the same neighborhoods?

 

[adil_minhas]

Yes, but numbers are numbers. Forget the 200 million figure for the country, go to any Indian city. There will be what, a fraction of minorities there.

Can you show me one location in India where Hindus and Muslims co-exist in the same neighborhoods?

No man. The numbers (and proportions) are EVERYTHING!

There are tons of places where Hindus and Muslims live together.

Where you find ghettos, is because of security. And comes from a violent past of communal riots.

Communal riots happen when you have 200 million pitted against a billion.

not when you have the minuscule numbers you do. They would be exterminated in a fight. Face it.

 

[Deadpool]

Then they are lying and in denial, because they support Ghar Waapsi, Beef Ban, Love Jihad etc. That shows their religious affiliation surpasses their national identity. At least we Pakistanis are not in denial about where we stand.

If you and your countrymen support religious Hindutva laws in your country that disadvantage non-Hindus (beef ban), you may wrongly call yourself as an Indian nationalist, but you are actually a Hindutva and Modi bhakht.

Haven't I made it abundantly clear?
The people want that either the privileges given to Muslims and Christians be rescinded or the same privilege of having religious laws enacted for Dharmics. The religious laws for Dharmics include beef ban, money to proselytize, etc.

The Government of India cannot give religious laws to one set of people and deny that to another set. The fact that you fail to see this very simple logic shows exactly how biased you are - that you have made up your mind over India and Indians are will grasp even straws to hold on to those preconcieved notions.

The people want one way or the other, Not the current status - where one set has privilege and the other does not.

Do you want me to show you all the statements made by your sarkar about mandirs vs mosques?


These are the lies of the Modi sarkar and bhakhts. They project that the minorities in India are favored over the Hindus. This is the very definition of communalism. Read the Sachar Commission Report, and countless other human rights reports to see the conditions of minorities in India, and how the state discriminates against minorities.

The minorities of India are favoured by law over Dharmics. That is enshrined in law. It is not a subject that can be debated. The very same laws can be looked up in the Official Government Records and the Constitution of India.
- The fact that Muslims are allowed polygamy and Dharmics are not.
- The fact that Muslim women have zero recourse to legal system and legal protection of India in case of divorce, while Dharmic women do.
- The fact that Muslims are allowed to run schools and colleges exempt from the Governance standards and have discriminatory quotas for other Muslims while Dharmic run schools and colleges cannot have that.
- The fact that Muslim run mosques and properties generate massive revenues which is channeled to proselytize while Dharmic run temples and Gurudwaras are under Government control including the revenues.


The fact that you cannot see this legal discrimination against Dharmic people of India while the Muslims and others get privilege makes you a communal Islamist.

The Sachar Commission Report highlights the very same - the reason why Muslims are backward in economic spheres. The reason is not discrimination by others, it is because they have been in this cocooned bubble built by GoI(Congress) who wanted a captive vote bank and thought is is okay to oppress the Dharmics.

 

[sbh02]

No man. The numbers (and proportions) are EVERYTHING!

There are tons of places where Hindus and Muslims live together.

Where you find ghettos, is because of security. And comes from a violent past of communal riots.

Communal riots happen when you have 200 million pitted against a billion.

not when you have the minuscule numbers you do. They would be exterminated in a fight. Face it.

You still didn't answer my question, can you name me one Indian city where there aren't religiously segregated neighborhoods, where a good number of Muslims and Hindus live in the same locality, side by side?

There are regions in interior Sindh (Tharparker, Mithi); where the number of Hindus are greater than the number of Muslims. Even in those regions, there is no religious segregation. Hindus and Muslims live side by side.

During Holi and Diwali, Muslims celebrate with the Hindus. During Ramazan, some Hindus they fast. In Moharram, they mourn. Muslims don't play the azaan on loudspeakers during Hindu holy days.

Haven't I made it abundantly clear?
The people want that either the privileges given to Muslims and Christians be rescinded or the same privilege of having religious laws enacted for Dharmics. The religious laws for Dharmics include beef ban, money to proselytize, etc.

The Government of India cannot give religious laws to one set of people and deny that to another set. The fact that you fail to see this very simple logic shows exactly how biased you are - that you have made up your mind over India and Indians are will grasp even straws to hold on to those preconcieved notions.

The people want one way or the other, Not the current status - where one set has privilege and the other does not.

The minorities of India are favoured by law over Dharmics. That is enshrined in law. It is not a subject that can be debated. The very same laws can be looked up in the Official Government Records and the Constitution of India.
- The fact that Muslims are allowed polygamy and Dharmics are not.
- The fact that Muslim women have zero recourse to legal system and legal protection of India in case of divorce, while Dharmic women do.
- The fact that Muslims are allowed to run schools and colleges exempt from the Governance standards and have discriminatory quotas for other Muslims while Dharmic run schools and colleges cannot have that.
- The fact that Muslim run mosques and properties generate massive revenues which is channeled to proselytize while Dharmic run temples and Gurudwaras are under Government control including the revenues.


The fact that you cannot see this legal discrimination against Dharmic people of India while the Muslims and others get privilege makes you a communal Islamist.

The Sachar Commission Report highlights the very same - the reason why Muslims are backward in economic spheres. The reason is not discrimination by others, it is because they have been in this cocooned bubble built by GoI(Congress) who wanted a captive vote bank and thought is is okay to oppress the Dharmics.

Whatever benefits minorities get in India is pittance. Please read the reports of international human rights organizations that expose India's systematic discrimination against non-Hindus. As a Hindu and BJP supporter, you will never understand, but these are facts.

India is the fourth worst country for religious violence and intolerance, as shown in the PEW study, only bettering Syria, Nigeria and Iraq.

That clearly is a reflection of Hindus and Hindutva, and the discrimination of the Indian state.

https://qz.com/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/