How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.

[PARIKRAMA]

Dont take me wrong but the capability of USN is far ahead of IN as we all know. But even for just comparing BrahMos attack defence capability of say USN and IN, the sustenance part of USN is much higher.. I am pasting a sample statement from the article -

From the above analysis, don’t jump to the conclusion that the Kolkata class is equal to the Burke in missile defense role. Since the Kolkata carries just 32 Barak-8 and Burke carries 96 SAMs which can be increased to 192+ by quadpacking ESSM, the Burke equals Kolkata in the saturation missile defense role against BrahMos only. The superior load of the Burke allows it to withstand sustained missile attacks with its massive missile load. The Burke has advantages and can shoot down missiles at 200 km range when paired with AEW assets, but the Kolkata cant.

In a eventuality that USN faces supersonic missiles coming at them with terminal velocity over 3M and launched from a distance of 100-300-500 kms (3 different ranges), the ability of AEW assets actually takes away the "surprise" factor of any attack launched at least till 200-300 kms. If a supersonic or hypersonic missile with lo-lo profile and launched from say 300-500 km range then it does provide a more challenging proposition, at least theoretically. Hence research on lasers as ultimate defending role is the way forward and again i believe its going to be USN which would be in forefront of such tech deployment.

Quite surprisingly, when you consider INS Kolkata with dual deployment of BrahMos and Barak8, the platform potency is adequate to counter this surprise part again as illustrated by the author. again this may be adequate till 100 kms range of say CBG even though the strategic AEW assets of IN is missing/inferior to USN but supplemented by MFStar radar and Barak8 development specifically to counter punches from BrahMos kind of supersonic missiles.

BUT

in case of sustenance and prolonged engagement, the limited number of SAMs (32 in kolkata to even say 64 max (unconfirmed but space available) vs around 192 in Burke) makes INS Kolkata weaker. Its an awesome ship no doubt but in future ships we need to incorporate more punch in both side numbers meaning say around 48-64 BrahMos and around 192-256 Barak 8 capacity. We need such lethal punch ships. If we have to counter China's sea of pearl strategy and counter them with diplomacy and militarily, then potency of our ships needs to be much higher. One must remember, hostile engagement should not get over with just 16 BrahMos and 32/64 Barak8 and wiping of CBG. If we want more strength and capable second strike (as we are not going to start any engagement unless surgical in nature) in conventional terms also we do require more firepower especially as we may be at best having 3 CBG max unlike USN.

Again these are my thoughts... experts may differ.. but i always believe its best if we augment and have high quality and capability fleet in limited numbers then have large number limited capability stuff.

 

[Mitro]

OMG i am having a good time carry on

 

[Superboy]

• Mach 3 (2500-3000 km/hr) speed (which makes it very difficult to detect and track)

YJ-12 is Mach 4+. ESSM is Mach 4+. If defense missile is much faster than strike missile, than there is a good chance that strike missile can be destroyed even if the window is short.

Considering how slow poke Exocets got through Phalanx CIWS during Falklands war, YJ-12 can get past ESSM IMO. Even if YJ-12 can be engaged at say 50 km, the window is only a couple of seconds before impact.

 

[gambit]

I am not aware and neither are you. With your experience I'm sure what you state is true of American and western weapons tests, but that doesn't necessarily make it a 'Global Best Practice'. Whats to stop from the IN to take the missile one boring day, put up a target above a dinghy and perform one of their 'user trials'.

Indian engineers can. But when -- not if -- something goes wrong, they will inundated with so much data that root cause analysis will be next to futile. That is why tests, whether it is for missiles or for automobile tires, are conducted with incremental releases of influential factors, in other words: rigged tests. If the Brahmos had 44 tests, as claimed, then each of those tests are rigged. You can bet your next yr's salary on that.

 

[ENRL]

Sure, if you can see the missile and know where to point your laser steadily. The US can't do it reliably yet. Perhaps you can?

Let's see... 5-7 mach versus the speed of light in a medium. I think I'll take the laser.

1. Why and how does the US encounter Brahmos?

2. Has no one paid attention to my EW threads? Hard-kill options are always augmented by EW assets. Nulka, SLQ-32, we have options.

3. This isn't our first time playing the super/hypersonic game. We are well trained and equipped to deal with high-speed weapons. Hell, that was the forte of the Soviets.

Brahmos isn't the only high-speed missile around. Some of our target drones, targets used to test ship defenses, are faster than Brahmos. We knock them out, and yes, they are maneuverable too, we'll deal with this threat too.

The analysis is fine, but this is hardly a problem for a navy that deals with such threats on a consistent basis.

And on the laser. Let's see... 5-7 mach versus the speed of light in a medium. I think I'll take the laser.

Here's my non-EW response to Brahmos:

RIM-174 Standard ERAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Screambowl]

Please...Am sure you are smart enough to know sales brochures do not reflect real world conditions that often places limits on a weapon system.

The designers of the early infrared guided missile did not anticipate the pilot's defensive move of using the sun as a distraction. The designers of the first generation HARM did not anticipate the defensive method of 'blinking'. So you go on and believe those sales brochures.

what if three Brahmos launched at a time to kill one AC from different launch sites with similar distance from the target, how is it possible to counter all of three with different path profiles?

 

[Viper0011.]

Explained – How The US Navy Can Shoot Down The Deadly BrahMos Missile

Its a nice analysis but the USN is way ahead in countering these threats. Similar threats have emerged for decades. The following would counter any supersonic or subsonic threat or weapon coming towards USN ships:

1) EW + Standard Missiles (and the new ones with high kinetic energy)
2) Light Amplification by Stimulated / Sustained Emission of Radiation, aka, the LASER.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Could you explain why sat based navigation cannot be used in the entire trajectory? My GPS enabled cell phone can track almost every step I take when running. From what I know, the resolution of GPS even for civilians is in the order of about a meter. So theoretically, shouldn't satellite navigation be enough to guide the missile all the way to the ship?(Since ships are all bigger than a few meters.) Even if the ship is maneuvering, shouldn't the Indian navy's monitoring satellite (they launched one recently) be able to keep track of it, since ships are relatively slow moving objects?

(I know you are right, that most missiles use radar navigation for terminal guidance. I'm just wondering why.)

Also, is there any way to "soft attack" satellite based navigation? I mean, other than launching ASAT missiles, is it possible to do any sort of electronic attacks to disrupt the communication of missiles or ships to satellites?

Once again sorry for the delayed response. Honestly, I've been staying away from this thread (a lot of stupidity floating around), but I'll answer your questions as I respect your inquiry.

1. India can use GPS guidance through its missiles flight, but only if its tracking capabilities are able to provide not only GPS corrections to the missile, but track the location of enemy ships. No one can accurately say what the capabilities of India's satellites are, we can't be sure their monitoring systems can or cannot track moving ships and relay GPS coordinates. What good is tracking an enemy ship if your satellite doesn't have the means of relaying that info to other systems in a language those other systems can understand? The real reason why this isn't used is because it's easier to use a radar seeker. This also allows the missile autonomy and frees up satellites to do other things. If you want to go the GPS route you're going to need at least two satellites. One to monitor enemy ships and relay GPS coordinates and an actual GPS satellite to help your missile navigate. Can it be done? Sure, but don't count on it as a likelihood.

2. on the soft-kill approach, yes, but you need to understand two things.

First, our satellites are constantly monitored for adverse activities such as EW. I suspect other nations such as Japan, China and Russia do the same. If anything is detected, say anomalous activity caused by a virus, the system will be purged and the satellite restored to its full working condition. Blinding them with a laser is possible, China is reported to have done this to the US, but not all satellites are electro-optical, especially not military surveillance satellites, this isn't going to defeat a GPS type system. Satellites have shielding too. Military satellites are designed with features to lessen the impact of threats, especially as the designers know the satellite will be a target. Jamming is possible, but only if you target the uplink or downlink. Forget about broadcasting static into the general vicinity of the satellite, it's not going to work. Also, the US has built redundancies into its systems. Despite the commonly held theory, the US doesn't rely on its satellites for everything, systems have other forms of guidance and we have other forms of communication. Satellites just make everything easier. If anything happens to go wrong with our sats from an EW perspective, we can and will fix that problem.

In case one is actually put out of commission or is destroyed, we have quick-launch replacements ready to be deployed. We have redundancies.

Another problem is encryption. A satellite's up and down-links are encrypted and while I've demonstrated via my EW threads that this can be defeated, it's hard to target satellites. Injecting unencrypted data or wrongly encrypted into the satellites uplink or downlink, in a EW attempt, will see that information be discarded as it doesn't meet the satellite's criteria to be up or downloaded. Good luck guessing our encryption keys and protocols!

Neither of these mean that an EW attack is impossible, the US has invested a lot of time and resources into its own ASAT capabilities, and not all of these involve kinetic solutions. What this does mean is that this process isn't as easy or seamless as many people here on PDF, in movies or elsewhere in internet-land would like to think.

Satellite communications are very directional, target the up or downlink, nothing else is going to do a damn thing.

*I did a rundown of ASAT prospects on this thread (not the post the link links to, rather the one two posts higher) for @levina - it provides some sources that I wont add here and can further explain the concept - however, the context differs so be mindful of that.

THE MYSTERIOUS RUSSIAN SPACESHIP GIVING THE WEST THE DRIZZLES

On soft-kill options for ships... forget it, these are built with enough redundancies that jamming or eliminating their satellite navigation isn't going to be any major downgrade in their capabilities, though it will be a headache. Other ships, aircraft, subs, other sensors, too many redundancies.

As for jamming a missiles satellite navigation systems, yes this is possible and has been studied by the US for a long time, especially as these types of missiles proliferate. Satellite navigation is quite robust, but not unbeatable. I wont go into specifics on this though. Protocols, specs and operational procedures are still classified.

@ayesha.a - I hope this helps satisfy the conditions of your inquiry.

 

[vsdave2302]

To cripple our navy or naval port in day 1 of war with this Bra sh*t? Nice joke! And why day 1 of war? Because there will be no india after day 1,...Lol.

Well come to PDF.
One more added to that long list like cirr, Beudo, Gamibit etc.

 

[LittleFish]

One single sort of advanced weapon does not count very much. Only dozens of F22s are not able to counter the whole AF of the IAF, let alone Brahmos to USN.

 

[gambit]

what if three Brahmos launched at a time to kill one AC from different launch sites with similar distance from the target, how is it possible to counter all of three with different path profiles?

No defense is ever impenetrable. You can ask all sorts of 'what if' questions, each one with increasing lethality tailored to eventually defeat your target, and there is nothing I can do about it. But the flaw here is assuming that you can field unlimited munition against a target in these 'what if' scenarios.

The more sophisticated the weapon, especially the one-way discard type like a cruise missile, the less likely you will have large quantity of it, and that mean you have to carefully husband your resources. If you have to expend three Brahmos against a single ship, granted a capital ship, it mean the threat factor of this ship overrides other demands for the limited supply of Brahmos. Even for US with our wealth, in Desert Storm for example, every aircraft that sortied, every cruise missile that was launched, every cannon shot from the USS Missouri, had to be accounted for, not just as mere 'bean counting' after the war, but to calculate the maximum damage possible so that the battleship or the air base can turn its attention to other targets with whatever munitions it have leftover. In war, every combatant commander, from the general/admiral all the way down to the platoon sergeant, believes his immediate situation have the highest priority.

I hate to use the meaningless advice phrase 'Trust me' because no one have any reason to trust anything I say on an anonymous Internet forum. But I will tell you this from my experience: That outside of plain old bullets, no weapon designer ever started a project with the intention of giving his customer the latitude to using the 'spray and pray' combat tactic. The customer can do whatever he want, of course.

 

[GORKHALI]

To cripple our navy or naval port in day 1 of war with this Bra sh*t? Nice joke! And why day 1 of war? Because there will be no india after day 1,...Lol.

Because India believe in "Strike First,Strike Hard"

 

[vsdave2302]

Its a nice analysis but the USN is way ahead in countering these threats. Similar threats have emerged for decades. The following would counter any supersonic or subsonic threat or weapon coming towards USN ships:

1) EW + Standard Missiles (and the new ones with high kinetic energy)
2) Light Amplification by Stimulated / Sustained Emission of Radiation, aka, the LASER.

No , You can not shoot a missile like brahmos from laser technology available today. What is EW+Standard missile?

 

[Mav3rick]

Your argument is rather pedestrian. The new BRAHMOS-M will have sufficient redundancies to include anti-radiation/ECM, radio frequency and imaging infrared capabilities. Detection thus becomes almost an impossibility with present day technology. It also has for guidance, G3 ie, guidance redundancy with GPS, GAGAN and GLONASS.

Jamming everything simultaneously is impossible especially considering that sat nav is passive. The BRAHMOS-M in addition, will have a speed of Mach 5 and variable aerodynamic laws. Figuring out its flight path would be a nightmare! So you're toast before you can say, "bogie incoming!" End of story.

So basically game, set and match according to your own analysis and verdict, right?

Right! But as per the DRDO, that speed will be increased to Mach 5 with a new engine under development.

So we must counter the imaginary, planned or unplanned future upgrades with what is available today. Hmm.....

 

[vsdave2302]

Your argument is rather pedestrian. The new BRAHMOS-M will have sufficient redundancies to include anti-radiation/ECM, radio frequency and imaging infrared capabilities. Detection thus becomes almost an impossibility with present day technology. It also has for guidance, G3 ie, guidance redundancy with GPS, GAGAN and GLONASS.

Jamming everything simultaneously is impossible especially considering that sat nav is passive. The BRAHMOS-M in addition, will have a speed of Mach 5 and variable aerodynamic laws. Figuring out its flight path would be a nightmare! So you're toast before you can say, "bogie incoming!" End of story.

Brahmos Block 4 is comming. It will take a totally different route to attack ships. It will not attack from side but parpendicular to normal route which missile takes to attack boat. In this area , there is a minimum of Radar and EW. Hit in this area shall quickly disintegrate the ship. Verticle dive brahmos is not too far.