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How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

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I sympathize. Your psychological trauma goes back 1000 years and the last trauma in the third battle of Panipat is so severe that in Marathi you have coined a phrase to symbolize total ruin with the word Panipat.
So instead of saying you have ruined us , you say :
"You have done a Panipat on us".
Tum ne hamari Panipat kar dee ( Hindi equivalent).
:omghaha:
We will be messing with you for another 1000 years unless we both go boom.
Majhya var panipat kela? rest assured no such phrase exists.
 
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Declassified documents 50 years later show how Indira Gandhi and her advisers P.N. Haksar, D.P.Dhar and Indian COAS Sam Manekshaw threw Bangladesh under the bus.
(Example: War Crimes trials was the last thing India wanted in the aftermath of the 1971 war .)
India views at least a rapprochement with Pakistan far more important to its security and regional big power status ambitions, than relations with any other country.

Gary Bass of Princeton University wrote a paper "Bargaining away Justice " with now declassified information. His paper is fascinating because on one hand he laments the miscarriage of justice and on the other hand he gives a blow by blow account of how both India and Pakistan actively colluded to avoid dragging out the aftermath of the civil war in pursuit of their own security priorities.
All Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Indians should read this.
( Link )

The following extracts from the paper written by Princeton University Scholar Gary J Bass, "Bargaining away Justice" are extremely interesting.

" The basic reason was not legal, but military: although Indian troops and Bengali guerrillas had won a decisive victory in East Pakistan, the war had been inconclusive on the other front in West Pakistan. "

"As Hans Morgenthau put it, “[T]he principle of the defense of hu- man rights cannot be consistently applied in foreign policy because it can and it must come in conflict with other interests that may be more important than the defense of human rights in a particular instance.”31 In many ways, Bangladesh would seem a propitious case for prosecuting war criminals: there was a military victory by a liberal democracy; that democracy was appalled by the recent atrocities; it held many war crimes suspects in custody; and the per- petrator regime had collapsed. Even so, India, although victorious in the 1971 war, was not dominant enough to force Pakistan to accept humiliating trials of its troops. Instead, India sought its security through seizing a rare opportunity for making peace with Pakistan, embodied in the generous Simla agreement of 1972. With that strategic prize at stake, India proved ready to bargain away the trial of Pakistani war criminals. This was the kind of bargain that Huntington, Snyder, and Vinjamuri would expect.

In Bangladesh, too, international security concerns trumped the drive for retribution against the killers. Newly separate from Pakistan, Bangladesh desperately needed global acceptance as an independent state. With China and the United States hostile to the newborn country, Bangladesh feared lingering in a nether space of nonrecognition, which could tempt revanchism from Pakistan. Pakistan, however, insisted that the price of its recognition—a precedent-setting act of legitimation that would allow other states to follow—was impunity for war criminals. Bangladesh had little real choice but to acquiesce.

"At root, the problem was that India’s military dominance was not comparable to that of the Allies after winning the unconditional surrenders of Germany and Japan in World War II. It was not even as resounding as some less conclusive victories, such as the Allied victory over Germany and the Ottoman Empire in World War I or NATO’s 1995 victory in Bosnia.32 India could not impose its will on a helpless foe; it did not occupy West Pakistan, and could not have. Pakistan, even stripped of Bangladesh, remained capable of defying and provoking India. Under these strategic circumstances of a relatively incon- clusive victory, with the defeated foe’s cooperation needed for future security, some kind of amnesty was likely."

Summing up Gary Bass's paper:

The results of Pakistan's Civil War were not definite, unlike normal Civil Wars where the winning faction gets control of the entire nation. Pakistan retained control of its vital, strategic and far more defensible Western territory along with its rich mineral
and water resources and natural beauty. Pakistan also retained control of the core of its armed forces allowing it to rebuild and threaten India's territories .

Thus Pakistan's defeat was not like Germany or Japan in World War 2.
Pakistan deftly used its international clout to get back its prisoners and territories from India. But most important was India's desire to give preference to building relations with Pakistan over Bangladesh. I never knew this until a few days back when I read the excellent study on this subject that has been done by Princton University Scholar
Gary J Bass in his paper "Bargaining away Justice" . Reading this paper with declassified information now available is an eye opener for Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis, As a Pakistani I felt quite relieved to read this document, and it made me look very differently on India 50 years after our Civil War. I am hopeful that if sense prevails now as it did then we can still avoid nuking ourselves. Then as of now Bangladesh was peripheral to the interests of both Pakistan and India.

Following is clear after reading this paper :

1. Bangladesh is never going to get any sort of "apology " from Pakistan. There will be no war crimes trials. Not even symbolic ones.

2. Semantics aside India is not going to pressurize or intercede with Pakistan on Bangladesh's behalf for war reparations, apologies, trials of "war criminals " nor will any other nation. Bangladesh is alone in dealing with Pakistan.

3. India is primarily concerned with avoiding a showdown with Pakistan, and will look to only display as much military posturing as to prevent a full blown war. There was a brief moment of madness in February 2019 but for now matters are likely to be quiet.

4. Optics aside, Pakistan has no real interest in negotiations or improved relations with Bangladesh, and the last thing Pakistan will discuss is the Civil War. If it had not been for the prisoners of war held by India, Pakistan may never have recognized Bangladesh and nor would the majority of Muslim nations as well as China.

5. Military incompetence has consequences. In the third week of December 1971, Bangladesh and India were at the peak of their friendship and power backed by the Soviet Union. Yet they were not strong enough to crush Pakistan in the West. The fighting in the West was by India alone, but India's failure to break Pakistan ultimately resulted in Bangladesh making a humiliating compromise on prisoners of war trials. So Bangladesh's dependence on India resulted in severe lack of maneuvering room.

Reading these 40 pages made me feel much better as a Pakistani. Deft diplomacy and raw military power worked for my nation. The USA, China and our Arab allies stood by us in those dark days. We have much to be grateful for.

I also ended up viewing India as it was then quite differently, and I regret that an opportunity to settle issues between my nation and India ( as has often happened) has been lost. Regardless, we were able to bring every one of our fighting boys home in dignity and honor, and even as an enemy we must give credit to India for sticking to International Law. Even if I have to say it... I salute India for this act of pragmatism.
Great post. Thanks.
 
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Completely wrong¡

India was too poor country in 1971 to take care of any other poor country.

India just helped to Bangladesh against Pakistan.

Do you think that India could take over Bangladesh ¿ answer is a big No.

Only possiblity was during the time that to help Bangladesh for independent.

India and Soviet were the first who recognized to Bangladesh.

Indian Union like the Soviet Union both view independence or freedom in the same expansionist light.

While India was paranoid to the core about being encircled by a more progressive Nation State, Soviets had there own designs for the region to engage the Americans.

India's decision to solve her two front problem with Pakistan resulted in a satellite state of Bangladesh, a far more cynical monster than the previous denomination of East Pakistan.

The only country poor back then was China.
 
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Majhya var panipat kela? rest assured no such phrase exists.

It exists on Google.

Where Babur is the self styled local expert.

Why do you still come here. How is your strategic front doing?

Cheers, Doc
 
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I never said resolution mentions the word princely.
Your post below mentions "princely states" Whats the relevance?

Below text doesn't mention how many states. simply says states of North Western and Eastern Zones of colonial India.
Colonial India was a collection of over 600 princely states.

Does it say "states of North Western and Eastern Zones of colonial India" ? Or does it say areas? 😊

"that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."

It does not confine the number of states to just 2 in its most literal definition either.
The zones identified are to be assumed as different administrative units of the cobble union.

No it doesn't say two states. There is a remote possibility of more states seeking autonomy in a federation.
Exact words:
" should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."

A Federation didn't mean Martial Law and a remote colony. So in theory Bangladesh had a point.

Those who wrote the Pakistan Resolution had envisioned a Federation with constituent states. They were realistic about ethnic and linguistic disparities.
 
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Your post below mentions "princely states" Whats the relevance
That's what India was at the time. Either there were subjects to the British Raj or the local Raj.
Does it say "states of North Western and Eastern Zones of colonial India" ? Or does it say areas? 😊

"that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."
Political definitions
A Federation didn't mean Martial Law and a remote colony. So in theory Bangladesh had a point.
A reason for political activity not rebellion.
 
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I wasn't talking about investments , I was talking about the Indian governments BS intelligence agency not wanting us to grow on the military side and economic side , it's not political stability it's your countries dam influence in the first place

Don't act like India doesn't dictate Bangladesh , why do we have so many Indian government slaves here then ? Exactly
Every intel agency keep tabs on their neighbours. Especially one like Bangladesh who have a loose border with India while North Eastern states have issues relating to militancy. The political instability in Bangladesh is not caused by India rather, your own people's greed for power, Islamists are the ones wanting power grab.

When was the last time India dictated any policy change in Bangladesh? Don't act like everything wrong with Bangladesh is India's fault.
 
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Do you think that India could take over Bangladesh ¿ answer is a big No.

India, took over Goa; Daman, Diu, , Sikkim, Pondacherry, Hyderabad, Junagadh, a large portion of Kashmir, so why not Bangladesh ?

Only possiblity was during the time that to help Bangladesh for independent.

Will you use the "only possibility" reason with other nations such as Tibet and Xinjiang?

India and Soviet were the first who recognized to Bangladesh.

How did that help Bangladesh get into the UN ? China and the US were hostile and China vetoed Bangladesh 's admission till it bowed to Pakistan ' s demands for its prisoners to be released unconditionally.

Regardless, India is stuck with Bangladesh's population problems and the Indian BSF shoots an average of 45 Bangladeshi civilians each year trying to cross over into India. I don't fault India for this. No nation will tolerate violation of its borders.
 
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India, took over Goa; Daman, Diu, , Sikkim, Pondacherry, Hyderabad, Junagadh, a large portion of Kashmir, so why not Bangladesh ?



Will you use the "only possibility" reason with other nations such as Tibet and Xinjiang?



How did that help Bangladesh get into the UN ? China and the US were hostile and China vetoed Bangladesh 's admission till it bowed to Pakistan ' s demands for its prisoners to be released unconditionally.

Regardless, India is stuck with Bangladesh's population problems and the Indian BSF shoots an average of 45 Bangladeshi civilians each year trying to cross over into India. I don't fault India for this. No nation will tolerate violation of its borders.





You are obviously a highly intelligent, well-read and articulate poster. I pretty much agree with most of the things you say as you explain your points succinctly and you back them up with GENUINE, CREDIBLE and IRREFUTABLE facts and evidence.

Just wanted to ask was what now for Pakistan's international relations? I know our relations with China and somewhat with Turkey too are of paramount importance but I also think we need to increase relations with Iran and mend those with Afghanistan. As both Iran and Afghanistan are Muslim nations that border Pakistan, whatever happens in those countries internally generally does affect Pakistan as history has shown.

@Baibars_1260 what are your thoughts?
 
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So let's discuss the 1971 aftermath:
@Raj-Hindustani @Jackdaws @Chhatrapati @achhu
@PAKISTANFOREVER

1. India went nuclear in 1974 . What were the reasons?
(a) Did India fear a rearming Pakistan?
(b ) Any other threats ?
(c ) Was the nuclear test intended to deflect opinion from the Jayaprakash Narayan total revolution movement?

2. Why did the Indira Gandhi government come under such pressure from the Jayaprakash Narayan movement in Bihar in 1974 ?

3. Why was India as a victor of 1971 war so heavily impacted economically that a total revolution was imminent?

4. Why did India continue the refugee tax for three years after the Bangladeshi refugees had gone home ?

5. The Anandpur Sahib resolution demanding special privileges for Sikhs was launched in 1973 ? Why would Sikhs whose Generals were showered with honors for delivering India its "1000 year victory " suddenly feel the need for more privileges?

6. Why did India declare an Emergency in 1975 ?

7. Why did India keep insisting on renewing post and communications links with Pakistan?
 
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You are obviously a highly intelligent, well-read and articulate poster. I pretty much agree with most of the things you say as you explain your points succinctly and you back them up with GENUINE, CREDIBLE and IRREFUTABLE facts and evidence.

Just wanted to ask was what now for Pakistan's international relations? I know our relations with China and somewhat with Turkey too are of paramount importance but I also think we need to increase relations with Iran and mend those with Afghanistan. As both Iran and Afghanistan are Muslim nations that border Pakistan, whatever happens in those countries internally generally does affect Pakistan as history has shown.

@Baibars_1260 what are your thoughts?

Thank you. As always, am grateful for the appreciation shown. Your posts are very insightful too, and may I congratulate you on excellent write ups.
To your questions :
I agree that China, Turkey, are of extreme importance but most important of all are our relations with Iran and Afghanistan.
We need to develop a Canada-USA type relationship with these countries with our racial and cultural similarities of our adjoining populations acting as unbreakable bonds.

Have discussed this before but we need to move out of our "South Asian " complex and look west, transforming ourselves into a West Asian, Central Asian mold. This is already happening, but not fast enough. We have a thread on this:

 
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Thank you. As always, am grateful for the appreciation shown. Your posts are very insightful took and may I congratulate you on excellent write ups.
To your questions :
I agree that China, Turkey, are of extreme importance but most important of all are our relations with Iran and Afghanistan.
We need to develop a Canada-USA type relationship with these countries with our racial and cultural similarities of our adjoining populations acting as unbreakable bonds.

Have discussed this before but we need to move out of our "South Asian " complex and look west, transforming ourselves into a West Asian, Central Asian mold. This is already happening, but not fast enough. We have a thread on this:





With improved and increased relations with both Iran and Afghanistan, it would bring more stability to Pakistan. More stability would help improve our economy greatly. It would be a win-win for us. We SERIOUSLY need to focus on this.

I think we are already moving out of the "south asian" context as all our key relations and external activities/interactions are not in "south asia". With time this will increase and become more pronounced.
 
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With improved and increased relations with both Iran and Afghanistan, it would bring more stability to Pakistan. More stability would help improve our economy greatly. It would be a win-win for us. We SERIOUSLY need to focus on this.

I think we are already moving out of the "south asian" context as all our key relations and external activities/interactions are not in "south asia". With time this will increase and become more pronounced.

It is not only economy but would satisfy the aspirations of the adjoining populations to maintain their ancient bonds of marriage, trade and culture. The boundaries as they now exist between Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are artificial determined first by an unstable and very brief Sikh Empire, and later by the British.
Granting Afghanistan full Federation status and access to a sea port such as Gwadar would go a long way to meet desires of the people of KPK, and FATA.

First a Pakistan Afghan Federation and military alliance, and then possibly coopt Iran in.
This would make a very powerful military alliance able to offset any other regional power.

It would end the simmering unrest in FATA and Baluchistan.

Our South Asian mindset is the problem. Our interests obviously lie West. Which is why I fail to see the logic of some of PDF members still making outreaches to our former Eastern unit.
 
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It is not only economy but would satisfy the aspirations of the adjoining populations to maintain their ancient bonds of marriage, trade and culture. The boundaries as they now exist between Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are artificial determined first by an unstable and very brief Sikh Empire, and later by the British.
Granting Afghanistan full Federation status and access to a sea port such as Gwadar would go a long way to meet desires of the people of KPK, and FATA.

First a Pakistan Afghan Federation and military alliance, and then possibly coopt Iran in.
This would make a very powerful military alliance able to offset any other regional power.

It would end the simmering unrest in FATA and Baluchistan.

Our South Asian mindset is the problem. Our interests obviously lie West. Which is why I fail to see the logic of some of PDF members still making outreaches to our former Eastern unit.




Albeit slowly, I think Pakistan is moving away from the "south asian" mindset as our interactions east of us have virtually diminished over the past 15 years. If anything, our relations with the nations North and West of us have increased substantially during that time.
 
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