How RAW, India's intelligence agency, fared under 21 spymasters in 48 years

[nair]

It is not about capabilities but it is about chances and RAW and India surely have got easy chances and easy allies in form of TTP and Afghanistan against Pakistan.

As far as every terror attack and blame game well go read or recall at least i did not do that not even in case of APS though we media circles were digging many facts which also pointed towards India but we still did not

TTP & RAW has no involvement - Direct or indirect........ If some freindly agencies of RAW is helping them, that cannot be attributed to it..... Today RAW sells good in Pakistan (like it used to ISI earlier) So it continues..... There is a specific reason behind it....

 

[Spring Onion]

You guys give too much credit to RAW. No body in India cares much about RAW. Hell most people will not know its chief or what it does

RAW clueless about the elusive officer who has been screwing Pakistan
03, Sep 2010 By Pagal Patrakar

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New Delhi. After Pakistan blamed terrorist activities, internal unrest, cultural degeneration, faltering economy, massivefloods, and now match-fixing on the Indian intelligence agencies, RAW has been desperately trying to spot that person or group of officials within their ranks, who have been consistently screwing Pakistan on all possible fronts.

Members of the Pakistani society, establishment, military, and media have been coming up with these accusations against Indian agencies in the past few years, which has now pushed RAW to do some soul-searching.

“Well, if they have maintained this line consistently for so many years now, maybe they are right.” said K C Verma, Director, RAW, as he trawled through heap of files scanning profiles of all the official, secret and alleged members of RAW, who are working round the clock non-stop to destabilize Pakistan and screw its happiness and prosperity.

Some in Pakistan believe that Veena Malik, the ex-girlfriend of Pakistani cricketer Mohammad Asif, could also be a secret RAW agent
Mr. Verma had no success even as he went through the files and profiles of hundreds of persons that included secret agents in Pakistan, whose contributions to the intelligence gathering activities were even more secret.

“Look at this guy called Abdul, whom we had sent to spy in Pakistan three years ago. He’s now nicely settled in Karachi and running a profitable business of selling pirated CDs and mobile MMS clips. Yesterday I asked him to send some updates and he sent me a clip titled veena_malik_hot_mujra.mp4! What am I supposed to do with that?” Mr. Verma flashed one of the files with anger and frustration.

With a sigh, Mr. Verma recalled that much of the Indian spy network in Pakistan was destroyed under General Zia’s regime and a covert counterintelligence team directed against Pakistan was aborted on the orders of the then Prime Minister I K Gujral in 1997.

“All that was left in Pakistan was officers like Madhuri Gupta, who were in fact spying for Pakistan!” rued Mr. Verma, adding, “But I’m really keen to know who these guys are, who have been consistently carrying out one operation after another under our name.”

“You know, it’s so much like that movie Kranti, where both Dilip Kumar and Manoj Kumar were screwing the British under the same name.” Mr. Verma thought for a while and didn’t rule out existence of a breakaway faction of RAW in Pakistan, with no official connection with the Indian agencies.

“Yes, non-state actors.” said Mr. Verma.

bwahahahahaha this piece of writing is even bellow the level of low level Times of India

TTP & RAW has no involvement - Direct or indirect........ If some freindly agencies of RAW is helping them, that cannot be attributed to it..... Today RAW sells good in Pakistan (like it used to ISI earlier) So it continues..... There is a specific reason behind it....

It has great involvement through your friendly intelligence agency aka Afghanistanis .

As far as RAW's sale in Pakistan well I am sorry to disappoint you that even we are not ready to give that respect to RAW despite TTP-RAW-Afghanistan nexus and that is the biggest failure of RAW.

The biggest achievement of ISI Is that it has put constant fear in India which RAW failed to do so.

 

[nair]

It has great involvement through your friendly intelligence agency aka Afghanistanis .

As far as RAW's sale in Pakistan well I am sorry to disappoint you that even we are not ready to give that respect to RAW despite TTP-RAW-Afghanistan nexus and that is the biggest failure of RAW.

The biggest achievement of ISI Is that it has put constant fear in India which RAW failed to do so.

To be honest ISI was feared in India.... Because of its invovlement with Terrorists and its ability to hit india hard...... But I guess India learnt its lesson.......

1) Keep your adversary busy
2) Clean up your own back yard.....

You may not believe those RAW blaming statements, but I guess lot of your comrades believes them..... and tell you what, You give too much of a credit to RAw....

 

[Soumitra]

bwahahahahaha this piece of writing is even bellow the level of low level Times of India

Madam you understand satire? It is from satire magazine Faking News

 

[A_Poster]

Both Morarji and Gujaral were Ex-CONgressi who became Janata dal.

In any case both of them ruled only for 1 year or slightly more so its hardly time to build or destroy anything.

I was talking about the rest of the time it was allowed to be dominated by career IPS and bureaucrats with political connections disregarding Meritocracy.



I would credit Indira Gandhi for putting the right man on the job, but not the congress for letting the org. grow weak over the years.

It is very easy to wipe off an intelligence agency in a year. IK Gujral (for the deluded man he was) order RAW to stop all operations an withdraw all its agents back to India. This not only destroyed networks that was cultivated with efforts of decades, but their local contacts were hunted down by ISI as they could put 2 and 2 together. It destroyed RAW network in Pakistan completely, and even today has not recovered to pre-Gujral level. Had 9/11 not happened, it would have been non-existent even today.


Also domination by IPS and Babus is not bad. They become IPS after qualifying most difficult exam in India, and do not lack in brainpower. If there is political will, they could deliver better result than career spies.

 

[VivasvatManu]

It is very easy to wipe off an intelligence agency in a year. IK Gujral (for the deluded man he was) order RAW to stop all operations an withdraw all its agents back to India. This not only destroyed networks that was cultivated with efforts of decades, but their local contacts were hunted down by ISI as they could put 2 and 2 together. It destroyed RAW network in Pakistan completely, and even today has not recovered to pre-Gujral level. Had 9/11 not happened, it would have been non-existent even today.

Also domination by IPS and Babus is not bad. They become IPS after qualifying most difficult exam in India, and do not lack in brainpower. If there is political will, they could deliver better result than career spies.

RAW operate by acquiring 'agents' inside pakistan who is willing to trade secrets or do stuff for MONEY. These kind of assets cannot be 'wiped away'. They can at the most become defunct or deactivated for some time.

Its not like a bond movie where Indian agents actually go into pakistan and jump buildings and ride bikes. Indian agents go ONLY TO RECRUIT LOCAL talent.

Pakistan is a nation where it will be relatively easy to hire local talent to work against the govt. Their feudal system will ensure this. Not to mention the urgency of Pakistanis to leave their country for a better living standard for their kids.

Also its a mistake to think just because a person is smart they can do a good job. The most important criteria for selecting ANY candidate is his EXPERIENCE in the RELEVANT field and his passion for the job. IPS and IAS guys are shunted around regularly (mostly within India) to gain significant experience about operating agents inside a different country. You need to have specialists in that role.

 

[Spring Onion]

Madam you understand satire? It is from satire magazine Faking News

Thank you for mentioning as I did not see any source link so that is why.

 

[cerberus]

PA know very well what your state terrorist RAW are up to.

He not R&AW my dear Like I said R&AW not a premier agency at pakistani front

RAW operate by acquiring 'agents' inside pakistan who is willing to trade secrets or do stuff for MONEY. These kind of assets cannot be 'wiped away'. They can at the most become defunct or deactivated for some time.

Its not like a bond movie where Indian agents actually go into pakistan and jump buildings and ride bikes. Indian agents go ONLY TO RECRUIT LOCAL talent.

Pakistan is a nation where it will be relatively easy to hire local talent to work against the govt. Their feudal system will ensure this. Not to mention the urgency of Pakistanis to leave their country for a better living standard for their kids.

Also its a mistake to think just because a person is smart they can do a good job. The most important criteria for selecting ANY candidate is his EXPERIENCE in the RELEVANT field and his passion for the job. IPS and IAS guys are shunted around regularly (mostly within India) to gain significant experience about operating agents inside a different country. You need to have specialists in that role.

R&AW is capable but Its Now subordinate agency Which Work as Side Kick And We Have that Specialist that you mentioned

 

[A_Poster]

RAW operate by acquiring 'agents' inside pakistan who is willing to trade secrets or do stuff for MONEY. These kind of assets cannot be 'wiped away'. They can at the most become defunct or deactivated for some time.

Correct, but in order to do recruitment, you need people on ground. No one is going to dial up Indian Embassy to sell classified info. Contacts have to be made in person.

Its not like a bond movie where Indian agents actually go into pakistan and jump buildings and ride bikes. Indian agents go ONLY TO RECRUIT LOCAL talent.

There is no jumping building and riding bikes like james bond, but more of canvassing and collecting info on people who could be bribed. Most of Indian agents go under cover of diplomatic immunity, or use Iran and Afghanistan route to infiltrate for high risk but sensitive missions. The job of spy is much more mundane like collecting hairs samples from barber shops (by dumpster diving) in Kahuta to know how far Pakistan was in its nuclear program.

From what I have read in books written by Intelligence officials, the damage caused to Indian efforts in Pakistan was due to elimination of RAW's local contacts which it has cultivated over years (and some over decades). When I.K. Gujral ordered a snap pullout, ISI (not being completely stupid) noted who has left Pakistan in a hurry (both from Embassy staff and people who were working in sensitive areas) and backtracing their movements, eliminated a lot of RAW's local contacts.

Also its a mistake to think just because a person is smart they can do a good job. The most important criteria for selecting ANY candidate is his EXPERIENCE in the RELEVANT field and his passion for the job. IPS and IAS guys are shunted around regularly (mostly within India) to gain significant experience about operating agents inside a different country. You need to have specialists in that role.

This is a non-issue as IPS officials working for RAW are separated from regular Police ,after first year in academy itself, and are trained for espionage purpose. Anyone who has qualified IAS/IPS/IFS could chose to join RAW after first year of common training.

 

[cerberus]

Correct, but in order to do recruitment, you need people on ground. No one is going to dial up Indian Embassy to sell classified info. Contacts have to be made in person.



There is no jumping building and riding bikes like james bond, but more of canvassing and collecting info on people who could be bribed. Most of Indian agents go under cover of diplomatic immunity, or use Iran and Afghanistan route to infiltrate for high risk but sensitive missions. The job of spy is much more mundane like collecting hairs samples from barber shops (by dumpster diving) in Kahuta to know how far Pakistan was in its nuclear program.

From what I have read in books written by Intelligence officials, the damage caused to Indian efforts in Pakistan was due to elimination of RAW's local contacts which it has cultivated over years (and some over decades). When I.K. Gujral ordered a snap pullout, ISI (not being completely stupid) noted who has left Pakistan in a hurry (both from Embassy staff and people who were working in sensitive areas) and backtracing their movements, eliminated a lot of RAW's local contacts.




This is a non-issue as IPS officials working for RAW are separated from regular Police ,after first year in academy itself, and are trained for espionage purpose. Anyone who has qualified IAS/IPS/IFS could chose to join RAW after first year of common training.

R&AW is agency which Only used for Intelligence Gathering
India has More dangerous agency than R&AW in Place for pakistan

 

[VivasvatManu]

Correct, but in order to do recruitment, you need people on ground. No one is going to dial up Indian Embassy to sell classified info. Contacts have to be made in person.

There is no jumping building and riding bikes like james bond, but more of canvassing and collecting info on people who could be bribed. Most of Indian agents go under cover of diplomatic immunity, or use Iran and Afghanistan route to infiltrate for high risk but sensitive missions. The job of spy is much more mundane like collecting hairs samples from barber shops (by dumpster diving) in Kahuta to know how far Pakistan was in its nuclear program.

From what I have read in books written by Intelligence officials, the damage caused to Indian efforts in Pakistan was due to elimination of RAW's local contacts which it has cultivated over years (and some over decades). When I.K. Gujral ordered a snap pullout, ISI (not being completely stupid) noted who has left Pakistan in a hurry (both from Embassy staff and people who were working in sensitive areas) and backtracing their movements, eliminated a lot of RAW's local contacts.

This is a non-issue as IPS officials working for RAW are separated from regular Police ,after first year in academy itself, and are trained for espionage purpose. Anyone who has qualified IAS/IPS/IFS could chose to join RAW after first year of common training.

These are half truths. ALL Indians working in embassy are tracked 24x7 in pakistan. Their FAMILIES are tracked 24x7 in pakistan. So withdrawing the agents is not likely to tell the ISI anything they don't already known.

Do you have any specific link about what you have claimed about IPS guys being absorbed into RAW right in the beginning ?

 

[SrNair]

if anything that can be put at credit of RAW that was given by Congress in 71. So why blame Congress

Not Congress,but Indira.
Indira was a brilliant strategist and a ruthless administrator.Congress and Indira was different in various ways.

On topic : It was the IK Gujral with his self motivated delusions that destroyed our agency.It took a decade and half years to consolidate it .

Any way I think Ajit Doval will organise a perfect
agency .

 

[Spring Onion]

Not Congress,but Indira.
Indira was a brilliant strategist and a ruthless administrator.Congress and Indira was different in various ways.

On topic : It was the IK Gujral with his self motivated delusions that destroyed our agency.It took a decade and half years to consolidate it .

Any way I think Ajit Doval will organise a perfect
agency .

Indira was Congress Congress was Indira. The Modi supporters cannot deny historical facts.

So if Ajit Doval by advocating terrorism in Pakistan is doing a fine job according to Indians then why cry over ISI?

 

[Soumitra]

Indira was Congress Congress was Indira. The Modi supporters cannot deny historical facts.

So if Ajit Doval by advocating terrorism in Pakistan is doing a fine job according to Indians then why cry over ISI?

he is not advocating terrorism but putting back RAW so that the lives of billions of Indians are safe from terrorism

 

[A_Poster]

These are half truths. ALL Indians working in embassy are tracked 24x7 in pakistan. Their FAMILIES are tracked 24x7 in pakistan. So withdrawing the agents is not likely to tell the ISI anything they don't already known.

Those intelligence officers are more of data collators who are posted there to get a pulse of Pakistan and to scope out public functions to identify potential turncoats.Bribing is never done in Pakistan, but in neutral countries where no suspicion would be raised. But the core intel gathering is done by field agents, and this was even more critical 20 years ago.

Majority of what I am posting is directly from what retired RAW officials have stated in their interviews or books. Nearly everyone blame Moraji Desai and I.K. Gujral for being idiots. Desai was a classical idiot who showed confidential documents to Zia-ul-Haq and got Indian sources killed; while I.K Gujral was a deluded peacenik who though that if India disarmed itself, Pakistan would become brother country of India.

Here are some articles: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...he-raw-doctrine-that-set-india-behind-1771985
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...too-well-in-Pakistan/articleshow/12577068.cms
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/defe...gujral-in-former-pms-bombshell-sources-731629

Do you have any specific link about what you have claimed about IPS guys being absorbed into RAW right in the beginning ?

I have first hand knowledge of recruitment process and it is also stated on wikipedia page. Though there is no official bar on lateral recruitment, but majority of IPS officers who join RAW do so from academy itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_Analysis_Wing