How Pakistan could effectively cripple Indian’s air force with rocket artillery, and what is needed.

[Genghis khan1]

India doesn't have the same thinking cycle, they think they will be ahead and use tactics similar to America in the Cold War. Russia was developing long range MLRS while America was not.

But they are not alone. They have friends with Benefits, trying to knock sense into them while milking them for weapon money.

 

[Philip the Arab]

But they are not alone. They have friends with Benefits, trying to knock sense into them while milking them for weapon money.

Pakistan does too, if Russia tries something I doubt China would just watch.

 

[crankthatskunk]

In such a scenario, I dont understand why you are counting on a equal and specific response. The response would be varying and assymetric. There would be a much large scale response and the forward air bases will be the initial target. Attacking first without gauging the extent one could go or completely creepling the western defense of India will be a mistake. Because you would have no control over the retaliation. A real bad scenario. Pretty sure Pakistan Army is much more intelligent than this.

With what!!
Modi is waiting for Rafale. 26 enough!!
Don't underestimate PL 15. We have already seen what India has on 26th and 27th Feb 2019.
Any way, if India does, they will receive matching or may be 3 times the response from Pakistan.

 

[dbc]

That’s why MLRS use shoot and scoot tactic..

If you are shooting and scooting you can’t barrage attack Indian bases can you? Cruise missiles, PGM, cluster munitions are all superior options. Heck PAF Mirages successfully attacked an Indian base last year with a PGMs so the whole premise of shutting down an enemy base with rocket attacks is flawed.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Brahmos is not even a god of a missile like people claim, it is a rebranded "Streaker" Cold War missile that NATO(And American Made) ships are geared towards.

so the only difference in "Brahmos" from "Streaker" is the Ramjet tech!!

 

[Philip the Arab]

so the only difference in "Brahmos" from "Streaker" is the Ramjet tech!!

Ramjet is not impressive, it is a fast missile but I doubt Pakistan's ships radars will have a problem intercepting them. Streaker just means a fast missile that flies high unlike Harpoon, or Exocet which fly low, and slow(er). Pakistani ships equipped with HQ-16 will have no problem engaging the missiles, if ECM don't work.


Excerpt from Quora
"This means that in the end, BrahMos is a “streaker” type high speed heavy antiship missile just like all of its Soviet predecessors, and that is the exact threat type that the United States Navy’s air defense doctrine is built to counter."

 

[crankthatskunk]

If you are shooting and scooting you can’t barrage attack Indian bases can you? Cruise missiles, PGM, cluster munitions are all superior options. Heck PAF Mirages successfully attacked an Indian base last year with a PGMs so the whole premise of shutting down an enemy base with rocket attacks is flawed.

So how long will it take to launch a barrage by one launcher unit!! And if they are mobile units, which they are how much time they need to move away from previous location!!
Obviously PA wouldn't place 10 units next to each other for the Indians to destroy them.
Secondly, you are not telling us, how quickly the Indians can respond to a surprise attacks!!
Before a unit fires all its missiles!!

Come on mate. We are talking about Indians, with out date equipment and very dubious missiles.

 

[Philip the Arab]

If you are shooting and scooting you can’t barrage attack Indian bases can you? Cruise missiles, PGM, cluster munitions are all superior options. Heck PAF Mirages successfully attacked an Indian base last year with a PGMs so the whole premise of shutting down an enemy base with rocket attacks is flawed.

Yes, you can actually launch all rockets within 5 or 10 minutes. You can't fire on something far away in 5 minutes with a counter battery radar no matter who you are. You need to know something like that is going to happen, have forces ready at that exact moment, and be able to triangulate the location and hope they won't just pack up and drive away.

PAF Mirages launched a warning attack, they could have destroyed an airports runway with a PGM easily.

 

[Didact]

Ramjet is not impressive, it is a fast missile but I doubt Pakistan's ships radars will have a problem intercepting them. Streaker just means a fast missile that flies high unlike Harpoon, or Exocet which fly low, and slow(er). Pakistani ships equipped with HQ-16 will have no problem engaging the missiles, if ECM don't work.


Excerpt from Quora
"This means that in the end, BrahMos is a “streaker” type high speed heavy antiship missile just like all of its Soviet predecessors, and that is the exact threat type that the United States Navy’s air defense doctrine is built to counter."

Lots of errors in one post. Almost every single word is wrong. Wow that must take some effort to be this wrong on so many levels.

First, streakers were high speed straight line strike missiles designed to fly fast, fly high, fly straight at the Target vessel and use it's raw speed to avoid interception. A good analogy is your CM-400.

Next BrahMos was designed to hunt enemy vessels protected by dense modern air defence cover which would have no problem in intercepting a fast striker. As such it became important to ensure that modern ADS couldn't generate firing solutions for as long as possible. This was achieved through a variable flight path wherein the missiles would drop down to 5m above sea level 20-60km from Target or keep it's entire flight path at that altitude (with range sacrificed). Finally as the missiles approached 20kms from the Target it would execute a series of complex S maneuvers to evade ADS. Finally the missiles are intended to work in wolf packs, individual missiles targeting individual areas of a large vessel and all executing counter measures to avoid interception.

All of these measures make it a very very difficult missile to intercept, especially when multiple missiles are launched on target.

 

[Philip the Arab]

First, streakers were high speed straight line strike missiles designed to fly fast, fly high, fly straight at the Target vessel and use it's raw speed to avoid interception. A good analogy is your CM-400.

I was going off what others said on forums, and question answering places like Quora.

Next BrahMos was designed to hunt enemy vessels protected by dense modern air defence cover which would have no problem in intercepting a fast striker. As such it became important to ensure that modern ADS couldn't generate firing solutions for as long as possible. This was achieved through a variable flight path wherein the missiles would drop down to 5m above sea level 20-60km from Target or keep it's entire flight path at that altitude (with range sacrificed). Finally as the missiles approached 20kms from the Target it would execute a series of complex S maneuvers to evade ADS. Finally the missiles are intended to work in wolf packs, individual missiles targeting individual areas of a large vessel and all executing counter measures to avoid interception.

Those S maneuvers your talking about aren't hard to counter as they have been used by missiles like the Eagle anti-ship missile albeit at much lower speeds and are not something new like you described. If PAF coordinating with the AWACS it would easily be able to spot the incoming missile but that's another matter.

You know Chinese missiles are not so different to Soviet or Indian missiles and are probably programmed to counter just that(From Russia attacking China), and of course the slow, sea skimming missiles. I have no doubt China has probably already stolen the details of the Brahmos. I agree a salvo could be effective, but right now I doubt PN would attempt offensive action against IN.

 

[khail007]

nah! You can locate it in 5 seconds..

In Gulf War, there was always a saying on CNN that to find a launcher is like 'Finding a needle in a hay stack'.
So IMO, it seems a very difficult task.

 

[Philip the Arab]

In Gulf War, there was always a saying on CNN that to find a launcher is like 'Finding a needle in a hay stack'.
So IMO, it seems a very difficult task.

I think MLRS may be a bit different, and tech has advanced since then.

 

[dbc]

Lots of errors in one post. Almost every single word is wrong. Wow that must take some effort to be this wrong on so many levels.

First, streakers were high speed straight line strike missiles designed to fly fast, fly high, fly straight at the Target vessel and use it's raw speed to avoid interception. A good analogy is your CM-400.

Next BrahMos was designed to hunt enemy vessels protected by dense modern air defence cover which would have no problem in intercepting a fast striker. As such it became important to ensure that modern ADS couldn't generate firing solutions for as long as possible. This was achieved through a variable flight path wherein the missiles would drop down to 5m above sea level 20-60km from Target or keep it's entire flight path at that altitude (with range sacrificed). Finally as the missiles approached 20kms from the Target it would execute a series of complex S maneuvers to evade ADS. Finally the missiles are intended to work in wolf packs, individual missiles targeting individual areas of a large vessel and all executing counter measures to avoid interception.

All of these measures make it a very very difficult missile to intercept, especially when multiple missiles are launched on target.

What is the turn radius of the Brahmos at Mach 5 60,000 ft? What is it at 500ft? Once you have that answer you will be better informed about the efficacy of S and doughnut turns. Heck the brahmos could do a Bollywood song and dance before end game - it will still get killed by the USN. I don’t know much about Pakistan ADS so I can’t comment.

In Gulf War, there was always a saying on CNN that to find a launcher is like 'Finding a needle in a hay stack'.
So IMO, it seems a very difficult task.

not sure where you heard that, there is significant backscatter from rocket exhaust plumes. Modern radars can pick up and trace the launching platform quite easily.

 

[Didact]

What is the turn radius of the Brahmos at Mach 5 60,000 ft? What is it at 500ft? Once you have that answer you will be better informed about the efficacy of S and doughnut turns. Heck the brahmos could do a Bollywood song and dance before end game - it will still get killed by the USN. I don’t know much about Pakistan ADS so I can’t comment.

You can calculate that. BrahMos doesn't fly at Mach 5, it's actually slower than it's parent at 2.8 Mach. The speed was sacrificed for maneuverability.

rahMos is capable of sustained 40G-50G radial acceleration. I'm not aware of the instantaneous acceleration values but 70G should be a reasonable estimate. Most AAM and SAMs are capable of 70Gs.

I don't think USN will have problems intercepting it BTW. My comments were for Chinese ADS

 

[dbc]

You can calculate that. BrahMos doesn't fly at Mach 5, it's actually slower than it's parent at 2.8 Mach. The speed was sacrificed for maneuverability.

rahMos is capable of sustained 40G-50G radial acceleration. I'm not aware of the instantaneous acceleration values but 70G should be a reasonable estimate. Most AAM and SAMs are capable of 70Gs.

I don't think USN will have problems intercepting it BTW. My comments were for Chinese ADS

At Mach 2.5 ,60,000 ft the answer is 75 miles .5 G. At 500 ft it is still 3-7 miles depends on humidity max G.
A turn radius of a few miles to befuddle CIWS or sea sparrow is a nonstarter.