How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[SQ8]

^^^^ so u r admitting that u took a jibe...come on man .. u have the power to delete the posts.. instead u joined the bandwagon..

@topic... as u have already mentioned why Israel is so effective ..but u forget the mentioned the superior weaponry systems they have... PAF doesn't have any advantage on any front.... don't have superior weaponry nor the bigger force...



I hope .. u don't mind if Indians honor few of planes with some interesting names

I am also a member and have my own opinions. And any further jibes after that will be treated with high selectivity as this still remains a Pakistani forum.

Israel's weapons systems arent beyond the reach of many threats.
And they werent beyond the reach of many threats in 73.
How do you know the effectiveness of the PAF systems? What source do you have that has a written report of visiting and evaluating PAF systems and C4I measures and datalinks and EW systems?
Whats your gauge.. ?
The IAF is eager to publish the installation of new tyres every week, do you have similar reports on the PAF?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

^^^^ so u r admitting that u took a jibe...come on man .. u have the power to delete the posts.. instead u joined the bandwagon..

@topic... as u have already mentioned why Israel is so effective ..but u forget the mentioned the superior weaponry systems they have... PAF doesn't have any advantage on any front.... don't have superior weaponry nor the bigger force...

He didnt,
he very eloquently kept the debate valid and relevant for everyone.

I hope .. u don't mind if Indians honor few of planes with some interesting names

I hope you dont. because that will be derailing the topic indeed and an after effect of the red mist which is a terrible thing I know

 

[majesticpankaj]

He didnt,
he very eloquently kept the debate valid and relevant for everyone.


I hope you dont. because that will be derailing the topic indeed and an after effect of the red mist which is a terrible thing I know

I hope u don't abuse your power.... I didn't say that i will do it....

 

[Windjammer]

by argument India has higher numbers of jets along with much better resources....pakistan is a small country with lesser number of bases as compared to India...

Have u ever thought why Israel being so small able to defend itself against the bigger adversaries..??

do u know why PAF didn't turn up during karachi's attack in 1971 and in longewala ?

Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!

 

[majesticpankaj]

Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!

I can also put a list of bravery of IAF..but don't have any to show of any cowardliness... I hope u get the drift...

anyways... let stick with the thread.

 

[SwatCat]

Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!

They are with IA which is gaining defeating PA and making them surrender.

 

[Windjammer]

I can also put a list of bravery of IAF..but don't have any to show of any cowardliness... I hope u get the drift...

anyways... let stick with the thread.

Yea drag in the drones to make your self feel better.
You know, Israelis can indeed take pride by taking on much bigger air arms......much less we can say for our Eastern neighbour. !!
Right back to the topic.

BTW, I have also read Indian members referring to the MKI as Rapptor of the East. !!!

 

[Windjammer]

you have now come down to empty chest thumping...
I have not mentioned the salala attack or OBL's episode... the clue was in my earlier post which has mentioned the events.

and I have listen that PAF official offering the f-16 capabilities with 1/3 of price... !!

Shooting over others shoulder grows hairs on your chest mate, typical escape ploy .....my argument was confined vis-a-vis IAF.
Whatever the PAF is offering is not being shoved down anyone's throat......hell at least we are not claiming it to be the "next Gen". !!

 

[MilSpec]

Gentlemen... How bout keeping the entire discussion limited to the scope of the thread, lets not make this thread into IAF/PAF thread. (request to mods to cleanup unwanted posts)
@Fellow Indian members, Please avoid bringing in history into the thread, let the discussion be limited to "countering MKI" if you want to discuss numbers game projection go to the relevant thread or create a new one.

 

[SQ8]

Yea drag in the drones to make your self feel better.
You know, Israelis can indeed take pride by taking on much bigger air arms......much less we can say for our Eastern neighbour. !!
Right back to the topic.

BTW, I have also read Indian members referring to the MKI as Rapptor of the East. !!!

The problem comes with realistic assessment and something as simple as humility.
The MKI is without a doubt.. a fine aircraft, an excellent weapons system ..that is quite a match for the likes of not just the JF-17, but the F-16 and F-15.
However, its not without its flaws and weaknesses that not every pilot will be able to cover for...and out of 50% scenario's these can be exploited effectively.

The era of turning dogfights is still coming to an end.. the newer generation of IR missiles with 60 g maneuvering will leave most aircraft short of energy if they manage to survive it. And the next missile on its way will kill them . And while I dont entirely agree with the initial idea that IFF will be needed on all engagements between the two sides.. they will have a lot of effect.
even the most advanced IFF systems along with AWACS conflicting the combat zone did not stop US F-15's downing UH-60's or F/A-18's being brought down by patriot.
With the sort of distance that is between the main assets of the IAF and the PAF.. along with the high information and situational overload thanks to AEW systems and ground radar linked with C4I. Both PAF and IAF planners , controllers and even pilots will know when the other is taking off, landing, turning etc.
That will immediately remove the advantage the current disparity gives.. and will lead to massive confusion during war too.
An MKI flight may end up engaging a Vajra flight in the heat of battle as it tries to sort it out from PAF fighters engaging it. BVR missiles will not be used from a 100km but rather at the edge between BVR and WVR.
The advantage the MKI brings is carriage capacity.. but how much of that is useful? How to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons systems and the survivability of each?
There wont be five minutes to BVR range, it will be 3-4 minutes to aircraft merging.. which leaves the possibility of not more than one or two BVR shots before there are WVR missiles heading your way.

take a leaf out of the 82 lebanon conflict.. where the distances between airbases somewhat measure up to what it is today between India and Pakistan.
the majority of the kills even by IDF fighters that were BVR capable in the F-15 were WVR..

 

[majesticpankaj]

^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...

1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
2. Mature platform with huge number
3. No supply chain issues.

 

[Windjammer]

The Vietnam scenario comes to mind, when the heavier powerful the likes of F-4 had to jettison their loads in face of slicing attacks by lightweights such as MiG-17 and MiG-21. !!!

 

[MilSpec]

The problem comes with realistic assessment and something as simple as humility.
The MKI is without a doubt.. a fine aircraft, an excellent weapons system ..that is quite a match for the likes of not just the JF-17, but the F-16 and F-15.
However, its not without its flaws and weaknesses that not every pilot will be able to cover for...and out of 50% scenario's these can be exploited effectively.

The era of turning dogfights is still coming to an end.. the newer generation of IR missiles with 60 g maneuvering will leave most aircraft short of energy if they manage to survive it. And the next missile on its way will kill them . And while I dont entirely agree with the initial idea that IFF will be needed on all engagements between the two sides.. they will have a lot of effect.
even the most advanced IFF systems along with AWACS conflicting the combat zone did not stop US F-15's downing UH-60's or F/A-18's being brought down by patriot.
With the sort of distance that is between the main assets of the IAF and the PAF.. along with the high information and situational overload thanks to AEW systems and ground radar linked with C4I. Both PAF and IAF planners , controllers and even pilots will know when the other is taking off, landing, turning etc.
That will immediately remove the advantage the current disparity gives.. and will lead to massive confusion during war too.
An MKI flight may end up engaging a Vajra flight in the heat of battle as it tries to sort it out from PAF fighters engaging it. BVR missiles will not be used from a 100km but rather at the edge between BVR and WVR.
The advantage the MKI brings is carriage capacity.. but how much of that is useful? How to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons systems and the survivability of each?
There wont be five minutes to BVR range, it will be 3-4 minutes to aircraft merging.. which leaves the possibility of not more than one or two BVR shots before there are WVR missiles heading your way.

take a leaf out of the 82 lebanon conflict.. where the distances between airbases somewhat measure up to what it is today between India and Pakistan.
the majority of the kills even by IDF fighters that were BVR capable in the F-15 were WVR..

Sir,

No BVR missile is ever fired at it's max range distance ever, sucess depends IMO upon least reaction time offered to the enemy.

Carrying capacity: India doesn't have any true multi-role/omnirole until rafales arrive. All of India's multi role/air dom fighter are basically true air superiority fighters masquerading as multi-roles platforms (MKI, m2k and M29upg's). Where this payload brings an advantage to the MKI in clean air superiority config is throwing two missiles with active and passive seekers towards a single target. This significantly increases its kill probability even against the best SPS in the world. MKI's unique architecture allows IAF to carry all relevant munitions, not just the R-series, I wont go into those details. And with a full load of armament, the platform is still exceptionally nimble when it comes to supersonic/subsonic maneuverability.

As far as WVR is concerned, Aim 9X is around 34 kms, R73M1 is around 30Kms, I dont know whose visual range is that high, unless your flir is scouting the horizon for a missile. To me personally even these Short range a2a seem pretty beyond visual range

 

[SQ8]

^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...

1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
2. Mature platform with huge number
3. No supply chain issues.

1. How much of it will be usable within that short response time? And will all that payload survive?
2. Pretty much will be the same story with the opponents.
3. Excellent.. but in the context of immediate aerial engagements.. ??

Sir,

No BVR missile is ever fired at it's max range distance ever, sucess depends IMO upon least reaction time offered to the enemy.

Carrying capacity: India doesn't have any true multi-role/omnirole until rafales arrive. All of India's multi role/air dom fighter are basically true air superiority fighters masquerading as multi-roles platforms (MKI, m2k and M29upg's). Where this payload brings an advantage to the MKI in clean air superiority config is throwing two missiles with active and passive seekers towards a single target. This significantly increases its kill probability even against the best SPS in the world. MKI's unique architecture allows IAF to carry all relevant munitions, not just the R-series, I wont go into those details. And with a full load of armament, the platform is still exceptionally nimble when it comes to supersonic/subsonic maneuverability.

As far as WVR is concerned, Aim 9X is around 34 kms, R73M1 is around 30Kms, I dont know whose visual range is that high, unless your flir is scouting the horizon for a missile. To me personally even these Short range a2a seem pretty beyond visual range

The reason the R series were always wired with two different seeker heads was the issue of PK's. The Russians were worried that one missile would not hit. The newer missiles improved on this and it does ensure a higher PK albeit for expending two missiles. In fact the Russians developed the active seeker variant for the R-27 because there was an initial disappointment with the performance of the R-77 system.(which is why it never went into mass production until the R-77M came out)

But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill.

A list of Indian purchase of these missiles that are still useful(not past their shelf life is):
R-27R- 300 missiles. (all from ex-Ukraine stock)
R-27RE - 100 missiles (new build from Russia and ex stock from Ukraine)
R-27TE -56 (New build from Russia)

existing R-27 variants would be going motor refurbishment and others are up for replacement by R-77 variants.

R-77 180 purchased 2001 for initial batch of MKI's, further missiles have been paid for and deliveries underway.
R-73(2 variants) 450 purchased 1999(R-73 basic) and 2009-10(R-73E)


Even if that is the armament, that means that the MKI has to regularly expend 2 types of missiles to ensure a kill. and hence in essence halves its payload effectiveness when employing that tactic. This tactic was designed by the Russians against heavier aircraft such as bombers.. when it came to engaging fighters they preferred the WVR based on hearing of US studies.

back when the AIMVAL/ACEVAL ACEVAL/AIMVAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-15's would score 64-0 when going against F-5 1vs1..
as more aircraft kept being added the ratio came down to as low as 2:0.. the changing factor was the "unseen shooter".

The MKI has an open architecture which is compatible with the standard mil-bus and hence it should be able to carry most munitions with just a few software uploads.. But that is useful if the source codes needed to operate those munitions is available. It should be able to fire the MICA-IR but would not be able to fire the EM unless the codes for it are released.

I do not consider the R series to be the penultimate armament of the MKI but the Astra.. which is a superior weapon when compared to the various issues and unverified capabilities of the R series.

 

[Pfpilot]

The offensive role of the MKI as an air superiority fighter plays a large part in its potential performance. Even an aircraft this capable is at a severe disadvantage when it's primary mission is to hunt down other fighters. This scenario provides the hunted with creative opportunities to deny the hunter a kill shot. There are limitations on the passive capabilities of all South Asian fighters, but jf-17s operating within Pakistan, under the cover of AWACs and surface radars, will be in a position to remain hidden till the most optimum situation presents itself.

In the defensive scenario that is going to be the reality for Pakistan in any wide scale conflict, the destruction of the MKIs are not nearly as important as preventing them from inflicting harm on PAF and PA assets. If PAF aircraft are able to avoid getting shot down in large numbers and can effectively counter IAF strike assets, then the job is done. Where the problem arises is in the offensive capabilities of the PAF; facing IAF aircraft on their own turf flips the script completely. And unlike Pakistan, the IAF assets are numerous enough and advanced enough to overwhelm any PAF interdiction missions, while concurrently launching numerous strike deep into Pakistani territory. That is not to say, it is a lost cause, but we'd be lucky to inflict any lasting damage to the Indian war fighting machine within it's borders. The MKI within it's own borders would be an even more fearsome adversary.

The crux of the problem then, is the inability of the other arms of the armed forces to accomplish what is required of them. I believe the PAF can keep the IAF at bay for a limited amount of time, but then what? The respite provided would only further embolden the Army to take the battle to India and then get massacred in Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Punjab. The navy is completely incapable of preventing a blockade of Karachi for more than a minuscule amount of time. So the issue becomes, while the PAF is more than capable of preventing the MKIs from gaining air supremacy over Pakistani skies, it is incapable of carrying that effectiveness over to Indian territory. Lets not forget, Pakistan would desperately need Indian territory to form a buffer against advancing Indian forces, since all Pakistan urban centers are within few short hours of the border. The IAF has the resources to launch attacks into Pakistan and wait for the kink in the proverbial air defense armor; the PAF doesn't have the assets to distract the Indian assets within India.

So if the PAF has to defend the shipping lanes, strategic assets, army supply lines and armor, and also preserve it's own war fighting capability at the same time; then the MKI becomes a progressively more dangerous adversary as the war drags on. We can shoot it down, we can avoid being shot down, but even Mohammad Ali could take only so many punches before he'd go down...and I don't believe we are exactly the heavy weight champion of the world. Our disadvantage against the MKI lies in are inability to rely on the rest of the armed forces and the simple concept of attrition, which we don't have the numbers to counter.