How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[MilSpec]

1. How much of it will be usable within that short response time? And will all that payload survive?
2. Pretty much will be the same story with the opponents.
3. Excellent.. but in the context of immediate aerial engagements.. ??


The reason the R series were always wired with two different seeker heads was the issue of PK's. The Russians were worried that one missile would not hit. The newer missiles improved on this and it does ensure a higher PK albeit for expending two missiles. In fact the Russians developed the active seeker variant for the R-27 because there was an initial disappointment with the performance of the R-77 system.(which is why it never went into mass production until the R-77M came out)

But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill.

A list of Indian purchase of these missiles that are still useful(not past their shelf life is):
R-27R- 300 missiles. (all from ex-Ukraine stock)
R-27RE - 100 missiles (new build from Russia and ex stock from Ukraine)
R-27TE -56 (New build from Russia)

existing R-27 variants would be going motor refurbishment and others are up for replacement by R-77 variants.

R-77 180 purchased 2001 for initial batch of MKI's, further missiles have been paid for and deliveries underway.
R-73(2 variants) 450 purchased 1999(R-73 basic) and 2009-10(R-73E)


Even if that is the armament, that means that the MKI has to regularly expend 2 types of missiles to ensure a kill. and hence in essence halves its payload effectiveness when employing that tactic. This tactic was designed by the Russians against heavier aircraft such as bombers.. when it came to engaging fighters they preferred the WVR based on hearing of US studies.

back when the AIMVAL/ACEVAL ACEVAL/AIMVAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-15's would score 64-0 when going against F-5 1vs1..
as more aircraft kept being added the ratio came down to as low as 2:0.. the changing factor was the "unseen shooter".

The MKI has an open architecture which is compatible with the standard mil-bus and hence it should be able to carry most munitions with just a few software uploads.. But that is useful if the source codes needed to operate those munitions is available. It should be able to fire the MICA-IR but would not be able to fire the EM unless the codes for it are released.

I do not consider the R series to be the penultimate armament of the MKI but the Astra.. which is a superior weapon when compared to the various issues and unverified capabilities of the R series.

Sir,
I would not want to go into the details of which R-series missiles are in the inventory. let's leave it to that.

As far as firing two AAM's are concerned you are absolutely right about the phil of use. The new seeker on R27's and R77 seems to have impressed IAF brass. Eritiran-ethopian conflict, both sides flew ukranian and russian pilots, i am sure they knew exactly how to counter the deployed strategies. Apart from that, i am not sure how many fired actually to bring down the other who might have served on the same afb at some time. As far as eritrean fulcrums, these were used not new but used russian fulcrums of early 90's vintage, AA10 versions operated by Eritrea is also unknown.

Astra: Is an unkown variable in the AAM sphere. I have heard conflicting speculations of Israeli involvement in seeker design whereas some claim vympel-DRDO is building 2 different seekers for 3 versions of the ASTRA mk2/3.

 

[Donatello]

^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...

1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
2. Mature platform with huge number
3. No supply chain issues.

Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.

And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.

 

[majesticpankaj]

Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.

And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.

don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.

 

[SQ8]

don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.

Its not the only BVR asset. .. we also have other planes in the arsenal.

 

[Safriz]

Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.

And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.

Same was the situation of Sweden during soviet-Finland war.
Their airforce dictorine was based on the assumption that USSR will over run Sweden within 24 hours and then Swedish Airfirce will have to go 'militant'.
Thus small Grippen with short runway requirements and well maintained 'straight' stretches of motorways,and swedish Pilots teained to land and take off from Motorways.Airforce assets widely distributed across sweden with many small airstrips in remote areas.
Maintinance crew trained to re-arm and maintain a Grippen quickly from a small airstrip,or a motorway..
Gripprn itself designed to to need little and quick mantinance..
Same may be the doctrine of PAF.

 

[Zabaniyah]

But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill.

Sir,

If I'm not mistaken, the mercenary pilots apparently fired those missiles too early. Hence, the poor hit probability.

The R-27 is old though...and I have often questioned its actual effectiveness.

Interestingly, all of the Eritrean MiG-29s were shot down with the R-73 by Ethiopian Su-27s.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Gentlemen... How bout keeping the entire discussion limited to the scope of the thread, lets not make this thread into IAF/PAF thread. (request to mods to cleanup unwanted posts)
@Fellow Indian members, Please avoid bringing in history into the thread, let the discussion be limited to "countering MKI" if you want to discuss numbers game projection go to the relevant thread or create a new one.

Aye haye Sandy kya baat ha.

Cha gya tu aj!!!

 

[Windjammer]

don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.

As Oscar said, F-16 is not the only BVR capable asset in PAF inventory, as for the man/flight hours ratio, come back and talk when any aircraft in Indian line up even comes close to achieving the following mile stone. !!!


http://www.f-16.net/news_article1468.html

 

[Donatello]

don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.

Wrong again....

All 45 F-16 A/Bs are being MLU-ed which pretty much puts their main electronics up to the BLK 52 standard, plus the 500 AIM120C5 that PAF bought.........

All JF-17s are BVR capable as well.......so by 2014 that Gives about 100 BVR jets to PAF.

 

[bloo]

lets see if you can prove it

see if you can counter the points raised by the OP but be original dont copy or quote others
he is still adamant that what he articulated is true despite getting hostile reaction from the patriots.

Sure

Ok, I think the TVC on the MKI is useless in combat. There is no pilot other than those in Russia who will verify to the contrary.
A USAF colonel.. not a captain.. not a lt.. a colonel..with a minimum.. of 22 years flying and fighting jets.. whose testimony ignited a fire like no other on youtube.. has laid it out bare.
So what, other than pseudo intellectuals like Kopp.. or otherwise.. can you find as evidence to the contrary.

Oh please if you mean Colonel Terence Fornoff then his comments have been contradicted years ago.
Even Nellis AFB denied being attached to any of his bland statements officially stating an apology.

True all the aerobatic maneuvers that people usually see will most probably be never used in a WVR combat but the capability to recover from post stall maneuvers and higher angle of attack can hardly be achieved by non TVC planes.
The very fact that TVC directly results in super-maneuverability should be enough reason, however 1 advantage is often forgotten by people is that MKI has 2 pilots, this very point increases its efficiency in striking.

Oh sure when Kopp has something to say his words are automatically crap and when your "colonel" actually says crap(Turmansky, FOD and what not) it is surely true coz after all he is a colonel.
Well some people have other things to say


By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov
Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia

Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat. As for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, their maximum angles of attack are 30o and 40o, respectively, and they cannot use armament at supercritical angles of attack.

In terms of conventional maneuverability characteristics, all these fighters are very similar. However, according to preliminary assessments, the Su-30MKI’s supermaneuverability gives it a 30-percent superiority over its competitors in close air combat. Aircraft multiple capabilities put into the forefront the problem of effective weapon employment. To solve this problem, the Su-30MKI has a copilot/operator to improve the crew’s performance, weapon employment efficiency and provide for group missions.

Speaking at the demonstration, Russian test pilot Yevgeny Frolov said
that unlike aircraft with conventional thrust, this vectored-thrust
model could be recovered from spins or from stall attitudes at almost
any altitude.

In its class, the Su-30 MKI has no competition. Those who tried – the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet and General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - have failed.

Ask the most experienced Su-30 pilots in the country. They’ll tell you why. Ashu and Parag Lall, who are flying the Su-30, said: “No other aircraft in the world can perform the yaw turn and the tail slide, or do a vertical climb at 80 degrees and prepare for an angle of attack.”

The yaw turn is a 360-degree turn that the Su-30 can perform mid-air, while climbing or descending in flight. “If it is an attack situation, the Su-30 has the capacity to slow down, turn around immediately in any direction and shoot. Most other aircraft will have to do a big circle,” Ashu explains.

In actual flight, the sight of the 360-degree turn as the Su-30 descends, is a wonder you’ll think is humanly impossible.

The tail slide too, is as amazing. “The aircraft virtually stops mid-air and then begins to fly reverse at zero or even negative speed. No aircraft in the world flies reverse. Flying reverse puts enormous stress on the engine. But the Su-30 can take it,” Lall says.

Yet another wonder of the aircraft is the angle of attack. “The Su-30 can climb and attain an angle of attack of 80 degrees alpha, something which is never easy. And it does so comfortably,” pilots Jeetu Yadav and Rahul Chauhan add.

The four Pune-based pilots say thrust vectoring nozzle is the technology in the Su-30 that allows it to do near-impossible manoeuvres. “The Su-30 defies the laws of aerodynamics. It defies the laws of control,” they echo.

Ashu has been flying the Su-30 from 1997, which means his complexity threshold has been set by the Su-30. “All my life, I’ve been flying only the SU-30. There is no mission I’ve not undertaken in the aircraft. Every day begins and ends with the Su-30. So, it has come to a point where its complexity is second nature to me. I now try to do anything more complex than the existing state of complexity in the aircraft – that’s the extent to which I am used to it. I breathe and live the Su-30.”

Has fear of death ever crossed his mind? “I feel safest in the Su-30 cockpit. Where’s the place for fear? There is no traffic jam out there, is there?” he asks.

The pilots have this to tell students: “Try the ultimate job in the world. There is no high that is comparable to the high of piloting a combat aircraft. We would like students to give it a try. Get to an aircraft, smell it and you’ll soon see that you want to fly it.”

 

[Storm Force]

Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..

I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard

ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC

ITS a game changer

 

[Zabaniyah]

Just one question: How effective is the TVC feature on a large, heavy-class fighter at high speeds?

There are several variables one has to take into account when in combat. A split second decision can make the difference between victory and defeat.

 

[SQ8]

Sure





Oh please if you mean Colonel Terence Fornoff then his comments have been contradicted years ago.
Even Nellis AFB denied being attached to any of his bland statements officially stating an apology.

True all the aerobatic maneuvers that people usually see will most probably be never used in a WVR combat but the capability to recover from post stall maneuvers and higher angle of attack can hardly be achieved by non TVC planes.
The very fact that TVC directly results in super-maneuverability should be enough reason, however 1 advantage is often forgotten by people is that MKI has 2 pilots, this very point increases its efficiency in striking.

Oh sure when Kopp has something to say his words are automatically crap and when your "colonel" actually says crap(Turmansky, FOD and what not) it is surely true coz after all he is a colonel.
Well some people have other things to say


By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov
Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia

Thats all because of the massive attack your countrymen put on him. It was a PR move, not a professional one.
He actually praised the MKI in the end but that is beyond your jingoism orientated approach.

All you are quoting is the manufacturer.. who will automatically praise what he has flown.
At no point does he even talk about how his rate's will factor into a scenario.
And I have no idea where the general designer assumes that conventional aircraft like the F-16 and F-16 CANNOT deploy weapons beyond those angles of attack.. what possible logic is there? Please use aviation sources other than the marketing side?

I have little use for "aerial ballet" videos.. make your point.. how is that TVC effective ?
The pilot claims that it can recover from any stall maneuver.. if he is USING TVC to GO post-stall to maneuver.. what is he recovering from??? He is already falling from the sky..
If the airflow over his wings is already disrupted due to him EXCEEDING the AOA.. then where is the recovery?
His statement has fooled the likes of you into thinking TVC is some magic that will keep an aircraft falling from the sky in a stall.
When all that it gives is the ability to change AOA after a stall.. so yes, you can recover faster by pitching your nose down or adding assymetric thrust in a spin..
But reach that situation in air-combat and you are being blown out of the sky.

The only actual advantage that you have quoted and is valid are the two heads.. but that too reduces itself as the number of aircraft in the fight increases.. where the two heads will help land a kill quicker in 1vs1.. by the time its gets to 5v5 the advantage goes down exponentially.

That are principles of studies in aircombat such as ACEVAL.. please read up on them before coming up with the usual pseudo air combat ideals like Kopp..

All you have posted is copy paste logic instead of countering the statements.

 

[SQ8]

Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..

I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard

ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC

ITS a game changer

Not entirely.. the F-35 does not use TVC.. not because it could not.. but because it was not termed cost effective with the new generation of HOBS heaters with 60g maneuvering.. .. all the aerial ballets would not stop that kill.

 

[MastanKhan]

Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..

I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard

ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC

ITS a game changer

Hi,

So---okay TVC is a game changer----the aircraft can do wonders---but what about the fool who is flying it---what would happen to him---actually his body and .

There is a limit to stupidity of an argument---when there is a talk of TVC then it has to be stated AT WHAT SPEED would thrust vectoring happen---200 knots or at 600 knots.

Speed and the G forces are the most relative item in this argument / discussion of TVC---and none of you super geniuses have brought that out---.

Let us see how much you people know about it---.