How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Agnostic_Indian]

You just don't give up do you? Just two days you came stupidly claiming Matra 530 to be a BVR mssile, or was that your compatriot? Anyways, Guns are only effective against agile fighters and "only" in WVR combat. An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft. Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.

Experience in Vietnam showed that the WVR missile of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.

performance /pk of bvr missiles were even less..they were not mature enough.


www.pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

performance /pk of bvr missiles were even less..they were not mature enough.


www.pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

But they are mature now.

The person whose post I quoted told me something about a 40 year old war and argued that since a particular weapon did not work at that time, its upgraded will not work even today. Today's BVR missiles are state of art, and evolving rapidly. His argument doesn't hold water anymore.

 

[rockstarIN]

In fact, PAF should think about to counter upgraded versions of SU-30MKIs (Super Su-30MKIs) NOW and plan accordingly. Because soon Super Su-30 MKIs will be paired with FGFAs in the future.

 

[airomerix]

You just don't give up do you? Just two days you came stupidly claiming Matra 530 to be a BVR mssile, or was that your compatriot? Anyways, Guns are only effective against agile fighters and "only" in WVR combat. An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft. Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.

Experience in Vietnam showed that the WVR missile of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.

I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only.

Guns are only effective against agile fighters and "only" in WVR combat. An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft.

So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?

Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.

Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do?

Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.

Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?

Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.

According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad.

Experience in Vietnam showed that the WVR missile of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-97.html#ixzz2HBZdQuWL

Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

But they are mature now.

The person whose post I quoted told me something about a 40 year old war and argued that since a particular weapon did not work at that time, its upgraded will not work even today. Today's BVR missiles are state of art, and evolving rapidly. His argument doesn't hold water anymore.

yes you are right, I was just pointing out that bvr missiles pk was worse than wvr missiles pk at that point of time. Today most of the air to air battles will be bvr but there will be wvr battle also.

 

[danger007]

I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only.



So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?



Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do?

Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.

Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?

Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.

According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad.



Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?

huh are you real

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only.

Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.

So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?

Guns would be less effective as compared to WVR missiles against less agile fighters. Again, reply only after understanding the context, idiot.

Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do?

Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.

Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?

Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.

According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad.

Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.

Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?

I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.

Some of the mirages are using Grifo radar which does provide BVR capability as far as detection goes, for weapons lets not get in to conclusions but there is alot of confusion over some " rumored weaponry" of PAF .... wanna take a look ??

"Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," they said, adding the missiles were modified version of the South African T-Darter BVR missiles. The PAF claims to have H-2 BVR missiles which could hit targets up to 60 km.

Reports of Pakistan seeking the BVR technology appeared in the South African media. In the face of protests from India, the South African government blamed "rogue" elements to collaborate with Pakistan to develop BVRs.

PAF officials said the H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 missiles of the IAF would be fitted on to the PAF's Mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 Thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006.

P.S I GET BONUS POINTS FOR QUOTING TIMES OF INDIA

Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles - Times Of India

Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.

Sure consider the following things :-

-Close proximity of IAF and PAF bases
-Acquiring radar locks on the target
-The target resisting using jamming / ECM's
-The speed of both aircrafts (supersonic / or high subsonic)
-The average success rate of a BVR missile (Its never a 100% or is it?)
-Fratricides (see the kills eg in red flag )

So consider all the above in a 2-3 minute window and tell us how do you think a WVR cannot occur ... Its not even an option ... its nearly inevitable and that is why you see the likes of high T/W, TVC, canards etc to increase maneuverability and improve turn rates.....

And while we are at it why dont you simply answer this ...

IF WVR IS FINISHED----WHY THEN DOES IAF OPERATE R-73 SRAAM ?

Actions speak louder than words you see.....

I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.

Even the first air dominance full stealth aircraft aka the F-22 houses a gun, why is that ???
You cannot evade WVR .... It is not possible until a complete revolution of aerospace technology occurs where every one can see and target everything from anywhere ....

If you talk F-35, just think that countries would in the next decade be operating the F-60, PAK-FA and F-35's ... all stealthy aircrafts and their own respective sensors will detect each other later .....(if you talk the current methods being employed to detect aircrafts like radars, IR signatures etc), so again WVR will occur .....Its just a fact ...

 

[Mav3rick]

Go and read the JF17 information pool... and you'll find the maximum power ratings for KLJ-7 stands at 550W.

Which project are you talking about ?

Doesn't matter what information pool states about KLJ-7 as the true capabilities, just like that of the BARS radar, are always classified. Furthermore, the radars will be upgraded, the same is true for MKI too.

I am talking about the 5th Gen Projects that PAF is involved in with PLAAF. That is sufficient information for you.

 

[Mav3rick]

Your facts.. said that JF17 fires Aim120,
PAF ordered Aim120C5.
Singapore AF doesn't allow IAF pilots study their aircrafts.
And many more... which I forgot...

It does,
It did,
It doesn't,
Lol......don't have anything at all right, no wonder. LOL!!!

I said that I read about those figures in some books/journals years ago.
Even simple browsing through internet or a little understanding about radars would explain that to you.
If you can't browse or don't understand then its not my problem.

So you have no 'proof', right??

Thats was for the Kamikazi comment you made about Mig21 which by far is the most produced aircraft after the 2nd WW.
Go and read about the difference RAM had on F16 RCS clean[reduction from 5m^2 to 1.2m^2].. Bison had similar upgrade in this regard.. It RCS stands well below normal Mig21 and is around 1m^2 or less.

A normal Air-Air configuration would add about 2-3m^2.

No body can provide you with evidence... there are somethings which are understood however It was my mistake that I posted something your Brain cannot understand.

Your question is similar to asking proof as to why a truck carriers more load and a car cannot.
I don't have time for such elaborate explanation which would again go wasted thanks to your IQ and understanding abilities.

So yet again you have no proof, right? All you have is a pile of BS. Atleast you are consistent with your BS, I have to give you that. And my Kamikazi comment stands valid still because there is no point in discussing clean configurations unless the Jet is to be used in such a way.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/37545.pdf

There you go... you can't even understand little examples...
Your Brain is worse than that of the dumbest person I've come across.

And just as expected, consistency without PROOF. No proof at all for any BS claim. Listen Kid, either come back to me with proof or stay put!

Chinese got a lot of help from Israel which included antenna design and some classified information which only the Israeli and Chinese engineers know... they were very close to sign the deal when the US govt. blocked it.

And ignorant too, the agreement was already signed and Israel had to reimburse China for non-implementation!

The information offered by Israel was for financial benefits and It was against their interests to provide their top information to Chinese which could help anti-Israeli groups in long run.

Besides there were newer version of the AWACS radar evolved with the EL/W-2090 being the latest... used in the Phalcon AWACS project.

EL/W-2090 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yet again, stories from the wild!

Next time, bring proof or as I said, stay put!

 

[Mav3rick]

Like JF17???

5th Gen fighters. By the way the RCS of JF-17 is already comparable to an F-16 so it can be reduced even further with RAM, use of composites, compliant engine etc., albeit at the expense of cost.

Planes are equipped with cannon for the scenario when it is out of missiles. When was vietnam war fought? Oh yes, 40 years ago. BVR is the everything today. And PAF has nothing in its arsenal to counter the BVR capability of Su30 MKI. And we have the numerical strength as well.

Atleast prove successful BVR engagements of Russian Missiles and their kill probability! And when you cannot, I will know that you had some shame so you stopped posting about things that have failed miserably in actual combat.

 

[Mav3rick]

40 years ago you don't have BVR option. but you have now... why you need to go just 1km to your foe fighter?.. I guess you can't reach that short distance you might be shot down by the time. when you reach within 1km to your foe... you have lame argument..

Ah well.....Perhaps you should go and read up on Sparrow 1 or AIM-54 BVR Missiles.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Ah well.....Perhaps you should go and read up on Sparrow 1 or AIM-54 BVR Missiles.

well sir we already have Novatar 100 on owr MKI

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...CcZY6kjCxYlxBYW7NthMw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

Shenyang J-31 + PL-21 long range ramjet AAM.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Some of the mirages are using Grifo radar which does provide BVR capability as far as detection goes, for weapons lets not get in to conclusions but there is alot of confusion over some " rumored weaponry" of PAF .... wanna take a look ??



P.S I GET BONUS POINTS FOR QUOTING TIMES OF INDIA

Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles - Times Of India



Sure consider the following things :-

-Close proximity of IAF and PAF bases
-Acquiring radar locks on the target
-The target resisting using jamming / ECM's
-The speed of both aircrafts (supersonic / or high subsonic)
-The average success rate of a BVR missile (Its never a 100% or is it?)
-Fratricides (see the kills eg in red flag )

So consider all the above in a 2-3 minute window and tell us how do you think a WVR cannot occur ... Its not even an option ... its nearly inevitable and that is why you see the likes of high T/W, TVC, canards etc to increase maneuverability and improve turn rates.....

And while we are at it why dont you simply answer this ...

IF WVR IS FINISHED----WHY THEN DOES IAF OPERATE R-73 SRAAM ?

Actions speak louder than words you see.....





Even the first air dominance full stealth aircraft aka the F-22 houses a gun, why is that ???
You cannot evade WVR .... It is not possible until a complete revolution of aerospace technology occurs where every one can see and target everything from anywhere ....

If you talk F-35, just think that countries would in the next decade be operating the F-60, PAK-FA and F-35's ... all stealthy aircrafts and their own respective sensors will detect each other later .....(if you talk the current methods being employed to detect aircrafts like radars, IR signatures etc), so again WVR will occur .....Its just a fact ...

I have never said WVR will never occur. I have always said that rate of WVR will go on decreasing. Already BVR is the dominant form of action, and WVR is receding. Is it so hard to comprehend?

I haven't said PAF does not have BVR missile. I have said your Mirages aren't BVR capable.

5th Gen fighters. By the way the RCS of JF-17 is already comparable to an F-16 so it can be reduced even further with RAM, use of composites, compliant engine etc., albeit at the expense of cost.



Atleast prove successful BVR engagements of Russian Missiles and their kill probability! And when you cannot, I will know that you had some shame so you stopped posting about things that have failed miserably in actual combat.

I will post everything you want me to. After you can define the term "kill probabilty" of a missile. And please give a source as well from where you give this definition. If you can't, shut up.