How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[AUSTERLITZ]

1 question,what is PAF's counter to the r-73 archer off boresight missile in dogfights.Amplified when combined with TVC,but lets keep tvc out.

 

[trident2010]

That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.
Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.

Yes I agree there will be counter measured such as jamming or creating dummy EM noise. I found a pic showing the specifications of the MKI radar in the presence of natural / organised counter measures. Still its detection range is 135 km air to air. Which is more than enough to fire a volley of long range BVR's to the enemy formations.

https://e68a5715-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...GIg0Sfop5M-9nfYjEMuv6YtaaicASw&attredirects=1

 

[Skull and Bones]

AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One thing is sure you cannot be wrong... Its has generally been the case with your types.

As assumed earlier and rightly so... It goes over your Head... No point in explaining.

Raytheon Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $269,646,834 firm-fixed-price contract modification. This action is exercising an option to purchase 500 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) Air Vehicles (AAVs) Air Intercept Missile (AIM) – 120C-5 missiles and rehost. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan 100%. At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete April 2011. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).

Defense.gov: Contracts for Friday, November 17, 2006

Directly from US department of Defense.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Rajdhani express was funny...

BTW.. Its a radius of 400Km for 2m^2 targets... Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace... I have not yet gone into power radiated or antenna size or processors or etc..etc.. Just making a rough estimation on the number of TRMM and their working band gives the idea as to how pun the Pakistani AEW&C are against Phalcons of IAF.

Besides IAF would have AWACS cover in dual band with DRDO Emb-145 AEW&C aircraft providing the coverage in S-band.. along with Phalcons in L-band.. and If we add the long range radar capabilities of Su30MKI[X-band]... It becomes a total coverage in triple bands... a coverage even a stealth planes would like to stay away from.



PAF AEW&C cannot perform active/offensive jamming It only has ECM to defend itself.... due to the power limitations and its small size... while an AWACS like Phalcon can perform additional duties like communication links jamming or Signal jamming all the while providing coordinates for enemy aircrafts and ground vehicles[upto certain distance] simultaneously.

well i guess all those fan boys who beleave pakistan can block or jam Phalcons should read it and think what happens when there AWACS takes of from base to intercept owrs well guess what we already have an idea about where it is and already will be sending a bunch of MKI's with a few Novotar 100 and some other BVR's to take a good care of pakistans AWACS now under such circumstances will pakistani AWACS will ever be close to border by say at least 100 odd miles as the range of Novotar is atleast 200 KM

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...CcZY6kjCxYlxBYW7NthMw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk

plus green pine and other such radars

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...84GICA&usg=AFQjCNHCcCiLC1eUC2PTIIEbrusj3cI62w
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordfish_Long_Range_Tracking_Radar

now look at its range + the other stuff we are having not to meation all the AA batteries we have

 

[dbc]

PAF AEW&C cannot perform active/offensive jamming It only has ECM to defend itself.... due to the power limitations and its small size... while an AWACS like Phalcon can perform additional duties like communication links jamming or Signal jamming all the while providing coordinates for enemy aircrafts and ground vehicles[upto certain distance] simultaneously.

I haven't heard of an air borne early warning system being used for jamming. The Phalcon may have some directional jamming capability assuming it has dedicated antenna pointed away from its main radar. Then again the jammer has to get a lot closer to the hostile emitter to be of any use.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I haven't heard of an air borne early warning system being used for jamming. The Phalcon may have some directional jamming capability assuming it has dedicated antenna pointed away from its main radar. Then again the jammer has to get a lot closer to the hostile emitter to be of any use.

Very true sir but tell us who got the bigger and better and more power ful platform here ......

Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...

and if it ever comes to such a sceanario who you think is bettr placed to give its opponent a bloody nose

 

[Mav3rick]

Well in your opinion where will be the first strikes on, Command and control centeres of pakistan or horse stables ?

PAF AWACS will most likely be at the the maximum range from Indian border (it's my guess that they may be as far as 200km's away). And ground based EW assets are all mobile. It would be very hard for IAF to wipe these off.

Whats the point of objective responses when you are programmed to believe mujhideens carrying stingers on passenger bogies of rajdhani express are going to bring down phalcons. Phalcons that see 400 Sq Kms, for 2 m2 targets and upto 600 m2 for bigger targets (ahem.. eriye or chinese awacs) will some how have to go inside pak airspace?

Are you quoting me on the Stinger thingy? Do you wanna make sure that I said it? In any case, it was a few well trained commandoes that infiltrated PAF bases and damaged valuable assets, why cannot the same happen to IAF?

Phalcon will not have to cross over the border but to be perfectly safe lets assume that it will operate 200km's inside IAF air space to be at a maximum distance from the PAF standoff ARM missiles. That leaves it about 200km's range to detect fighter sized A/C, right? Similarly PAF AWACS will be roughly 200km's inside PAF airspace but will be covering 150km's deep inside IAF territory.

 

[GURU DUTT]

PAF AWACS will most likely be at the the maximum range from Indian border (it's my guess that they may be as far as 200km's away). And ground based EW assets are all mobile. It would be very hard for IAF to wipe these off.





Are you quoting me on the Stinger thingy? Do you wanna make sure that I said it? In any case, it was a few well trained commandoes that infiltrated PAF bases and damaged valuable assets, why cannot the same happen to IAF?

Phalcon will not have to cross over the border but to be perfectly safe lets assume that it will operate 200km's inside IAF air space to be at a maximum distance from the PAF standoff ARM missiles. That leaves it about 200km's range to detect fighter sized A/C, right? Similarly PAF AWACS will be roughly 200km's inside PAF airspace but will be covering 150km's deep inside IAF territory.

about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ



and about the second part

Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...

now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR

+ We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100

 

[Mav3rick]

about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ



and about the second part

Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...

now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR

+ We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell

Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kindly stop repeating the same posted message again and again. No matter how many TRM's Phalcon has, it can still only look as far as 450km's and Erieye too can see as far as 450km's so what's the big deal here? The only big deal is that PAF jets have much smaller RCS then IAF Jets hence smaller chance of being picked up at range over 300km's.

 

[Pfpilot]

OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.



And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft.


I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.




there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"

Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.

And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.



Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.

With all due respect, I think you fell into your own trap there. While your thorough knowledge of the Indian armed forces gives you great insight into the capabilities of the IAF, it also creates a bias against systems that aren't as well understood. The IAF capability isn't, and shouldn't be, underestimated. But while you proclaimed that, you just as easily underestimated the capabilities of Chinese missiles based on potentially outdated information. The Chinese military machine, much like the Indian economic machine, is moving at a pace so fast that judging it's capabilities on information even a couple of years prior is folly.

You may be right in the end and the Russian munitions may end up proving superior, but to claim that as an absolute truth, in turn, greatly underestimates the capabilities of the Chinese and PAF. It is completely possible that a Chinese insider viewing this thread may feel that Chinese BVR platforms are superior to and separate developments from anything the Russians have produced; he would be limited by the same type of bias you displayed in this post. The Russians and Chinese have much in overlapping technology at this point and while I agree that a more mature Russian industry is superior, I don't think it is fair for you to claim that we have no idea what the RVV-ae/sd/md can do, when you may have no idea what the sd-10b and its successors can do.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Kindly stop repeating the same posted message again and again. No matter how many TRM's Phalcon has, it can still only look as far as 450km's and Erieye too can see as far as 450km's so what's the big deal here? The only big deal is that PAF jets have much smaller RCS then IAF Jets hence smaller chance of being picked up at range over 300km's.

he he he sirji looking is different and looking and tracking multiple targets in a very intense electronik war sceanario is a diff game altogether yes you can look at us from that far but the question is how you will utilize it and how you stop your opponent who is bigger and better than you almost twice if not more + last i read sme where that the biggest diff between pakistni awacs and indian Phalcon is that Pakistani awacs has to beam every message first to ground control and then its first edited & then transmitted to the fighting force where as Phalcon transmitts and edits on its own twice as fast as pakistani awacs & deu to indian sats and other net centrik capabilities it gives a massive advantage to owr fighting force in real terms coupled by owr offensive capabilities against your assaets and the already very capable SU30MKI's radar and load carrying capacity and its sheer numbers i dont think your awacs will do any thing substantial as for backup already we will have a few Greenpines helping us hope u get the picture SIR

 

[Bratva]

about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ



and about the second part

Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...

now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR

+ We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell

Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?

 

[rockstarIN]

last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?

As explained, i think gambit, regarding this 1 hour fly 45 hour maintenance stuff. It is not like you fly 1 hour and take break 35 hrs. In war time, it can perform continiously. No worries...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?

phalcon can be refueled in mid air erieye can't do it.

 

[Storm Force]

SO PAF TACTICS of overcoming the MKI is to sit on the defensive in their own back yard under cover of their AWACS & GCC & sam COVER...

Seems to me your paf has HANDED THE IAF the intiative to conduct the war at their desired location/targets and their desired speed & intensity.

YOUR PAF retaliation tactic of cruise missle strrikes is very flawed and very HIT & MISS.

NO ONE EVER ACHIEVD AIR SUPERIORITY USING BALLISTIC MISSLES ONLY .

bit like saddam hussains tactics with his SCUDS proved to be rubbish doctrine