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How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

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Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce... must be the reason we are yet to see them in any country outside China... there have been interesting encounters between PLAAF Su27/J-11 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as PLA S-300/HQ-9 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as the Chinese Destroyer Type52C and Su30MKI... and I won't give the outcome here as to trigger troll attack by the CCP brigade... however I would like to mention that most of time the results were satisfying... mainly due to the training and superior tactics by IAF Chinese can any day say that in the Su30MKI was forced to return but by then It had done its job.

Multiple AAM ensure Higher chances of kill... even French have Mica with different seekers... while the USAF also used AIM-7 along with AIM-120... Chinese too use a mix of R-27(different version), R-77, SD-10 and other missiles... something dissimilar to what you have been saying about PAF... doesn't mean rest of the world must not If PAF can't.

Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.

With due respect, the whole world knows that Chinese don't share the details of there tests and missile accuracy spread sheets but calling them inferior won't make them one. The same was said when J-20 was unveiled, now J-31 and X-47's Chinese derivative is flying. Such stealth aircraft flights is not for propaganda or psy-ops, its a reality that they have gone far ahead than west planners had anticipated.

While you or any other member here places there doubts about Chinese jammers and BVRs your military planners are busy in reshaping war doctrines; because mocking them won't change the facts.

Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.

Yes!!!!!!!!! and -C5 version scuks so as JHMCS, everything is sh!t :D
 
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@Oscar, Great post!
The on-paper analysis of Su30MKI characteristics with equal JF-17/F-16 in the air looks 'all good' in Sukhoi's favour. Chinese Su-27SK/UBK fighters in Ex-Shaheen-I hardly surprised PAF, it was a good experience to fly against such IRST+BVR equipped fighters. There is nothing much an aircraft brings on the table than the methods and strategies its employed with.

When such IAF vs PAF engagements are seen in complete war scenario, then the balance gets fairly equal. PAF with medium and long range SAMs, BVR equipped F-16, JF-17 and F-7PG and up to 10 AEW&C/ELINT/EW aircraft is definitely not an easy adversary. JF-17's (seen on PDF as a weak opponent against MKI) flexibility of use, its weapon configurations options and its deployment numbers will be the key plan of PAF.

Emphasis on the bold parts.
 
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With due respect, the whole world knows that Chinese don't share the details of there tests and missile accuracy spread sheets but calling them inferior won't make them one. The same was said when J-20 was unveiled, now J-31 and X-47's Chinese derivative is flying. Such stealth aircraft flights is not for propaganda or psy-ops, its a reality that they have gone far ahead than west planners had anticipated.

If they don't share detail It doesn't mean their systems are upto the mark.. same with PAF.
They don't have stand off Jamming pods and ECM of the class of ALQ-218/ALQ-99 or SAP-518/SAP-14 their self protection jammers have hardly had the experience against any western or even Russian phased array radar.
J-20 is at present a technology demonstrator.. It has got nothing extraordinary which makes it stand out... other than Its VLO features.

While you or any other member here places there doubts about Chinese jammers and BVRs your military planners are busy in reshaping war doctrines; because mocking them won't change the facts.

Military planners have to reshape their war doctrines even If someone strap some herds of sheep with explosives and set them towards the border.. doesn't mean that they are a well organised heavily armed army.



Yes!!!!!!!!! and -C5 version scuks so as JHMCS, everything is sh!t :D

I never said that.. stop being a cry baby.

Lets say its enough information for now.

BTW Sapada-2000 MR-SAM, is already operational with PAF.

oh..... I can understand.
BTW Sapada-2000 would classify as short range point defense system and not a medium range SAM which can take out targets beyond 50 Km.
 
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First of all su-30 mki unlike russian version carries a israeli jammer.See berka valley turkey shoot for the effectiveness of israeli jammers against sams and fighters.
Second there are no good medium or long range sams atm for paf,and sams and aircarft don't fight together as they risk hitting their own aircraft,ussually sams fired first then fighters close.Never sams interfering in a BVR skirmish or dogfight between opposing forces.The egyptian air force lost huge numbers of planes to friendly fire in 1973 from sams while the sams caused high casualities among IAF.
This doesn't mean paf can't counter mki,as has been pointed out by oscar the f-16 block50 and above with upgrades is quite capable of standing toe to toe with mki.But jf-17 is being a little optimistic.
 
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i think su-30mki is actually the fighter with greatest capacity which could be traded in the international market
but on the contrary the cost of it is also too much that PAF may use the same amount of funds to get more JF-17s to confront it.
actually they are all in the 3rd generation so the strategy "overwhelm quality with quantity" will also work out.
Moreover,50% of su-30mki's superb capacity is counted for its power to attack the ground targets.And this won't gain it advantage during the air combat
 
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First of all su-30 mki unlike russian version carries a israeli jammer.See berka valley turkey shoot for the effectiveness of israeli jammers against sams and fighters.
Second there are no good medium or long range sams atm for paf,and sams and aircarft don't fight together as they risk hitting their own aircraft,ussually sams fired first then fighters close.Never sams interfering in a BVR skirmish or dogfight between opposing forces.The egyptian air force lost huge numbers of planes to friendly fire in 1973 from sams while the sams caused high casualities among IAF.
This doesn't mean paf can't counter mki,as has been pointed out by oscar the f-16 block50 and above with upgrades is quite capable of standing toe to toe with mki.But jf-17 is being a little optimistic.



I doubt the bold part....
 
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Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce...

And you know this how? Were you part of the testing team that conducted multiple evaluations under different scenarios? The PAF team in Chengdu tested these Chinese Jammers and put them through some very through grind, they were quite happy with the results. I would take their word over a fanboy since they have experience of conducting evaluations of both Western and Chinese EW suites.

Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.

Please expand on the Russian BVR kills? Which engagements are you talking about?

Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.

Oh Goodness me :hitwall:. Now i feel stupid replying to a fanboy, this part does it for me.

Good Day

I doubt the bold part....

The SU30MKI got hammered by the F16's operated by the Red Force during Red Flag Exercise :coffee:. The SU30MKI is a machine, a very good one if i might add but not one without vulnerabilities. The Indian fanboys need to stop making it look like 'God's Gift to Aviation', because it certainly is not.
 
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Emphasis on the bold parts.


I think Najam shouldn't have bothered dignifying your post and intellect (or lack thereof), by responding to your troll post.

In any case, if you think Chinese weapons are of no use, you are just kidding yourself and your next generation (god forbid if you have any).


I am reporting your posts as troll posts, and hope to see you in pink soon.

I doubt the bold part....

Post reported for trolling.

No gives a shyt what you doubt.
 
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The SU30MKI got hammered by the F16's operated by the Red Force during Red Flag Exercise :coffee:. The SU30MKI is a machine, a very good one if i might add but not one without vulnerabilities. The Indian fanboys need to stop making it look like 'God's Gift to Aviation', because it certainly is not.



Can we discuss this non sense in Su30 MKI thread??? The MKI is BAAP of F16s... The only competitor is F15..

Post reported for trolling.

No gives a shyt what you doubt.


Post reported for Declaring some one troll (who doesn't agree with God Almighty F16 theory), I have all reason to doubt, if you disagree me, ask me to clarify, why declaring me troll??? I have not accumalated 4000 post by posting stupid comments.....
 
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As far as the classified is concerned, the same radar was evaluated by the Chinese and was rejected as it had serious problems. The shortcomings of this radar overwhelmed the advantages it held..

They found the same problem the IAF did. So its naive to assume that it was not fixed.

Ofcourse, if you have read the Jane's article on the topic, they follow the same official line as the chinese government which is to do with aircraft performance and incompatibilty than radar problems.

But my query, was more related to how radar will determine tactics and wouldn't it be a major decision factor?
 
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Can we discuss this non sense in Su30 MKI thread??? The MKI is BAAP of F16s... The only competitor is F15..

Sure, but just to end the conversation i want to point out that the pilots of the USAF F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight A2A simulated combat. You are exactly proving the point i made earlier, the Indian fanboys make the SU30MKI out to be an aircraft that is invincible. F16 has proved to be the most successful Western Aviation Aircraft of our times, its numbers and users speak for themselves. You belittling the F16 just because the PAF operates it will not make change the facts.
 
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Sure, but just to end the conversation i want to point out that the pilots of the USAF F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight A2A simulated combat. You are exactly proving the point i made earlier, the Indian fanboys make the SU30MKI out to be an aircraft that is invincible. F16 has proved to be the most successful Western Aviation Aircraft of our times, its numbers and users speak for themselves. You belittling the F16 just because the PAF operates it will not make change the facts.




First this is thread about "How PAF counter MKI' not How USAF F16 counter MKI. Secondly you have are either misinformed or ill informed.. Lets tell u in perspective... u see either black or white , u no see grey part... Let me tell you some fact about 2008 RedFlag exercise...

India was member of Blue team , USA was member of red team..

1. Indian plane were not sync with other blue team members (coz We don't wanted to be, we were not willing to share our data link with NATO members of Blue team ). All communication was verbal.
2. Our IFF (Identify Friend and Foe) was not operational coz we didn't wanted to be, No MKI were in sync with NATO blue team members. Again It was verbal.
3. Our Radars were operating in training mode (Low detection low emission mode), so that our PESA/MESA radar frequency should not be tracked by NATO.
4. We were cautious about FOD coz we didn't had spare available in Nellis base Nevada USA. And more over Russian machines are well known for there toughness.

Here are some quotes from Vishnu Som (Who was reporting from Nellis Nevada)

" not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially."

". In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force."

"So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force."






Read it...

Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.

Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional




Read it as well... Nellis Nevada was a training exercise, not war...
 
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There is no need to go in for 'kill ratios' as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be : 'do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI' !. (demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).



Look at the bold part... and imagine what the author mean to say...


The only thing can compete MKI is Su27 family or F15 family... or SAMs...
 
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First this is thread about "How PAF counter MKI' not How USAF F16 counter MKI. Secondly you have are either misinformed or ill informed.. Lets tell u in perspective... u see either black or white , u no see grey part... Let me tell you some fact about 2008 RedFlag exercise...

India was member of Blue team , USA was member of red team..

1. Indian plane were not sync with other blue team members (coz We don't wanted to be, we were not willing to share our data link with NATO members of Blue team ). All communication was verbal.
2. Our IFF (Identify Friend and Foe) was not operational coz we didn't wanted to be, No MKI were in sync with NATO blue team members. Again It was verbal.
3. Our Radars were operating in training mode (Low detection low emission mode), so that our PESA/MESA radar frequency should not be tracked by NATO.
4. We were cautious about FOD coz we didn't had spare available in Nellis base Nevada USA. And more over Russian machines are well known for there toughness.

Here are some quotes from Vishnu Som (Who was reporting from Nellis Nevada)

" not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially."

". In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force."

"So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force."






Read it...

Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.

Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional




Read it as well... Nellis Nevada was a training exercise, not war...


I m tired of pakistanis posting those video on youtube and one more thing is the average age of the su-30 pilots was 24 and majority of the pilots who took part in red flag were young pilots.
 
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