How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[danger007]

Well, the how long depends on how the world can pis* in their pants and uncomfortably scrambling all available options to stop the conflict. This is the stupidest part about this region, you are both nuclear, you are BOTH poor and you are BOTH neighbors!!!! One conflicts or one hundred, you'll still be sharing borders, culture and similarities. So why not turn that negative energy into trade and towards human prosperity???

Btw, I've read all the posts above and I hate to disagree with many of them. The Indian members (as always and unfortunately) love to portray themselves as the next US. That is NOT and will NEVER be the case. The python 4, 9 and 11, the K-100 and K 900's don't mean crap. Nothing is 100% guaranteed. It's been projected in a way that India is much superior and they can stop any attack. I am concerned as if this is the mentality in the Indian military's hq, there may be a severe conflict that may result in loss of human life. So I hope and pray that such testy mentality has some oversight from calm people who can think realistically!

And yes, I think I've already mentioned many times that SU-30 with its load carrying capability, buddy refueling, two pilots and twin turbine is a superior aspect. BUT that doesn't mean it can't be locked upon. It just means more headache for the Pakistanis.

twisting on same thing with different ways will not help you bud..... i mentioned it already.... any kinda jet can be shot down.... no one denying it.... I mentioned earlier about the advantages of MKI and please mention what kinda advantages does JF-17 hold's apart from RCS.... Indian military's hq is just fine.... they don't wanna start war for no reason... maximum IA will prefer to avoid any conflict...... and except some brain frat's both PAKISTANIS and INDIANS not interested to fight another war...

 

[ANPP]

The flight performance, technical characteristics and combat capabilities of any aircraft primarily depend on their assigned role, tactical tasks and mission environment.
MKI is a triplane (a combination of conventional design with foreplanes) with a lifting fuselage and developed wingroot extensions. The interaction of the foreplanes and wingroot extensions creates a controlled vortex effect similar to that of the adaptive wing.
Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat.
Supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target.
A number of the Su-30MKI fighter’s subsystems (navigation and communications equipment, cockpit instruments) are being developed jointly with foreign companies. Consequently, these subsystems will be technologically on a par with the best foreign counterparts.
The superiority of the Su-30MKI’s radar in terms of target detection range, scanning sectors and jamming immunity makes it highly effective in long-range air combat.The forward facing NIIP NO11M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated radar sighting system. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar (X and L Band). The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneusly while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial / GPS navigation system.
Antenna diameter is 1m, antenna gain 36dB, the main sidelobe level is -25dB, average sideobe level is -48dB, beamwidth is 2.4 deg with 12 distinct beam shapes. The antenna weights 100 kg. for aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of detecting Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. The radar can track 20 air targets and engage the 4 most threatening targets simultaneously. These targets can include cruise missiles and even motionless helicopters. For comparison, Phazotron-NIIR’s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP says. The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation (+/-45 degrees vertical and +/-70 degrees horizontal have also been reported). N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance. The Su-30MKI can function as a 'mini-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.
Modern Russian fighters are equipped with an advanced optronic system designed to search, detect, lock on, automatically track aerial and ground targets and destroy them by onboard weapons. An optical locating station and a helmet-mounted sight incorporated by the system provide for effective weapon employment against aerial targets.

Compared to the F-16C Block 50, a heavy weapon load carried by the Su-30MKI significantly reduces the time required to defeat ground targets by one sortie, especially when using aerial bombs.
Notably, in terms of quantity and types of weapons, the Russian fighter considerably outclasses the F-16C & JF.
Fitted with 12 weapon stores, carrying a full complement of air-to-air missiles and featuring a multichannel target engagement capability, the Su-30MKI fighter can be effectively used to repulse a massive air raid.

Another distinguishing feature of the Su-30MKI is its high versatility. It can be used as an air defense interceptor, a strike aircraft or a flying command post. It can be used as a leader aircraft of combined fighter groups (including those of light fighters), ensuring their cooperation and concentration of efforts.
Many wrongly believe that the Su-27+ cannot perform all maneovres in combat load. To counter such talk designer Mikhail Simonov, at the 1994 Farnborough airshow, sanctioned a Su-30MK to perform the airshow routine with ordnance on all 12 pylons - a total of 7000 kg!! It did a complete fighter-like routine with this asymmetric load - including a tail slide!!.

According to Sukhoi EDB the Su-30MKI is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.

 

[MastanKhan]

being a senior diplomat doesn't means he/she has authority on defence related matters.

2:1 superiority doesn't means India will be put all its 736 jets in action against Pakistan, plus she has no idea that aerial warfare is not just about dog fights or based on 1 to 1 fights, ground based system also come into action, thus the attrition rates are not left to just dog fighting. She should know in previous wars India had superiority also, but PAF did not got destroyed.

And i don't get pakistan's shortfalls in training & tactics thingy, when did we become inferior in training & tactics, considering the reputation PAF enjoys in the eyes of other air forces. She seriously needs to know about stuff she is talking about.

She is mentioning 150 inferior JF-17s way back in 2009 when we did not even had a single sqd raised, so no idea why she comparing a non existent fighter jet at the time with the IAF fighters.

Her cable is just a justification for the US to give Pak F-16s, while she has no idea about the capabilities of PAF, and her cable has nothing to do with the topic.


So better not to bring in nonsense stuff.

TK,

How are you? Anne Patterson was the ambassador to pakistan----this article is intentionally written to make paf look weaker in order to smoothen the sale of F16 and aim120's----. The threat is being belittled on purpose for the benefit of pakistan---.

Anne Patterson being the pak ambassador at one time---off course she had all the information about the capabilities of paf---.

I am grateful to Anne Patterson for taking on the cause of pakistan in front of the u s congress and senate many a times during her tenure.

 

[Harry Potter]

TK,

How are you? Anne Patterson was the ambassador to pakistan----this article is intentionally written to make paf look weaker in order to smoothen the sale of F16 and aim120's----. The threat is being belittled on purpose for the benefit of pakistan---.

Anne Patterson being the pak ambassador at one time---off course she had all the information about the capabilities of paf---.

I am grateful to Anne Patterson for taking on the cause of pakistan in front of the u s congress and senate many a times during her tenure.

A Sorry feel good excuse.

Anyways you ask Mr. Robert D. Blackwill if there was anything wrong in her statement.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM.... do you think we don't have SAM's??

Hi,

I am sorry that you lost respect for me---what can I say---. So you got your sam's---okay---. If you feel secure deploying the su30's 50 miles from the border---so be it---. We think that with our capabilities---whatever they are---we have been given an opening---so what is wrong with that.

When you look at a scenario from your side and say---it favours you-----why can't it be the same for me---. Just because you think that your 'posture' is extremely 'fearsome' and we should be shaking in our pants---and we say---no---there is nothing fearful about it but rather a welcome oppurtunity----.

Now---what does that upset you.

 

[Pfpilot]

It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.

The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.

In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive positions and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?

The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.

 

[Last Hope]

This thread has turned into a blender, so many flaws and loopholes other side is posting.

Babur GLCM cannot be intercepted as it is a stealth missile. Plus, another version of Babur is being worked on which is super-sonic. Terrain hugging ability of Babur has a huge survival rate.

Please mention in points what your views are and hence it would be easy to counter them.

 

[danger007]

Hi,

I am sorry that you lost respect for me---what can I say---. So you got your sam's---okay---. If you feel secure deploying the su30's 50 miles from the border---so be it---. We think that with our capabilities---whatever they are---we have been given an opening---so what is wrong with that.

When you look at a scenario from your side and say---it favours you-----why can't it be the same for me---. Just because you think that your 'posture' is extremely 'fearsome' and we should be shaking in our pants---and we say---no---there is nothing fearful about it but rather a welcome oppurtunity----.

Now---what does that upset you.

i came through lot of your posts... i always find nice n mature posts... but what ever you are talking about here is, like PAF will act provocative by attacking IAF bases on ground.... will such act give PAF any advantage except barely destroying one airstrip and one squadron fighter and the result is??? world will start treating Pakistan as rogue state(no offense , US is there waiting for such situations) or bring more sanctions as well you will face full fledged war... may i know how far and how many bases that PAF have.....

 

[paritosh]

This thread has turned into a blender, so many flaws and loopholes other side is posting.

Babur GLCM cannot be intercepted as it is a stealth missile. Plus, another version of Babur is being worked on which is super-sonic. Terrain hugging ability of Babur has a huge survival rate.

Please mention in points what your views are and hence it would be easy to counter them.

any cruise missile is a ground hugging missile...that is the whole point of it being a cruise missile. What makes babus special?

 

[Last Hope]

any cruise missile is a ground hugging missile...that is the whole point of it being a cruise missile. What makes babus special?

Okay so you mean you can shoot it down?

We'll see if it can be intercepted. That is my point.

 

[paritosh]

It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.

The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.

In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?

The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.

With this one post...you have officially become my favorite poster here on this forum.

It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.

The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.

In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?

The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.

With this one post...you have officially become my favorite poster here on this forum.

 

[VCheng]

It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.

The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.

In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?

The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.

The next "war" is already happening on the economic front, and most of what you have posted, excellent as it is, will be left by the wayside in the overall picture.

 

[paritosh]

Okay so you mean you can shoot it down?

We'll see if it can be intercepted. That is my point.

There is nothing that can't be intercepted. With AWACS any bomber...missile can be targeted. A capable super-sonic fighter or a SAM can engage the missile and destroy it.

 

[Foo_Fighter]

Ok then boys (or in some cases girls) how's it going?

Oh ok! I might be trolling...

Anyways moving on... So what are we on about?

How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

Ok... Then.. sounds good...

Lets me derive this first:

1. There is no mention of JF17 in the subject line (so may be no more Su30mki God Given vs JF17 the world class bird? errm.. maybe?)

2. PAF means a lot of things... like Planning, Command, Integration etc etc etc (Sorry I don't have sources for etc)

3. Final one (errrm now I said it, what should I write... ok let me try) Is Pakistan aware/equipped to handle MKI Threat to India? (Not good or good... I wonder... came out better I guess)

Ok so now, we understand the thread topic, here are my few paisas (wish had some cents)...

1. Is JF17 equal to mki ... My answer NO! (I don't care if you like me or not)
2. Is JF 17 a good deterant to mki... My answer YES! (I don't care as long as you are not my older brother who is gonna hot me for that)
3 Is JF17 acquisition meant to neautrilize mki - ummmmmmm I think thats debatable, however as far as I know, NO! That's why J-10 maybe?
4 So how about 2 JF17 vs 1 mki - how about two me's against you (depends if you are not HHH)
5 How about my AWACS and Your Mini AWACS (Wheres my big mom and my foster mom.. mommy!!!)
6 How about our SAM's? (Goodness Uncle SAM is here too?)

Ok jokes apart...

My point of views:

> PAF vs IAF - PAF more than well defense against IAF adversary (else 2008 would be more than a good excuse for war monger hindooos)
> IAF vs PAF - IAF second line of defense will be facing PAF as IAF is more worried about PLAAF (They are ducking scary, aren't they?)
> If IAF does a surgical strike in Pakistan now - RIP IAF (whatever they send - Do you really think it's possible?)
> If PAF does a surgi.... ok ok ok I am sorry am not even going there
> Can PAF do an Air superiority against IAF in a war scenario (That's debatable, depending on how much IAF can pull out from Eastern Sector due to Global Political scenario) - though sure they can!
> Can IAF do an Air superiority against PAF in a war scenario - YES (as long as PLAAF is drunk and hugging my cousins)

So as a Pakistani you should know:

1.India is not a threat, but will react to it ( I expect the same from Pakistani brothers)
2. Indian AF is more inclined towards Eastern Hostility and power projection rather than conquering Pakistan which will be a nightmare for Indian politicians to suffice ( you guys really think, taking over countries is that easy in todays world?)
3. Is Pakistan really ready for a war right now?

So as an Indian you should know:
1. When I say I am peaceful, do I demonstrate here? (afterall you are representing a so called peaceful community)
2. We cannot annihilate Pakistan with mki's (that's fact, eat my shorts)
3. Is India really ready for a war right now?


Well if it happens, it happens... though I won't mind reading some spat between brothers (Indo-Pak) on this thread, as it keeps my sexual tendencies high at this late of night.

Please contact me if you require further information if you may require (<----- Most of us)


Regards,
Kundan

 

[Foo_Fighter]

what is this crap

Few pegs of JW and a little bit of more constructive discussion?