How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Harry Potter]

And are you sure that PAF had no BVR capability before AMRAAMS ??

Let me quote hasnain0099 post's from

ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Janes Air-LaunchedWeapons

The US has concluded a USD284 million deal to supply Pakistan with 200 Raytheon AIM- 9M-8/9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM)systems. The AMRAAM sale marks the biggest single export order in the history of the AIM-120 programme and gives the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) a beyond-visual range (BVR) active-radar AAM capability for the first time. The missiles will be carried by the PAFs newly ordered F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft and its existing F-16A/B Block 15s, which will acquire AMRAAM compatibility as part of a mid-life upgrade. The arrival of the AMRAAM in PAF service gives the air force a significant combat capability it has previously been denied. Pakistan has explored several clandestine avenues to developing its own active radar BVR AAMs to counter Indias considerable stocks of weapons in the same class. Pakistan is also expected to acquire the Chinese-developed SD-10 (PL-12) AAM with its JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighters. SD-10s would also be part of any potential Chengdu J-10 order. Pakistans closer defence ties with the US may force a re-assessment of its links with China.The US has now granted Pakistan access to effective modern weapon systems, such as the AMRAAM, curbing the need for the PAF to look for suppliers elsewhere. Hand in hand with US equipment will come restrictions on the potential transfer of technology – such as the AMRAAM– to China, with Pakistan forced to distance itself from its Chinese partners as a result. India will no doubt note the delivery of the AMRAAM order to Pakistan with interest. The Indian Air Forces large front-line force of Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21UPGs is equipped with Vympels RVV-AE (R-77) active radar AAM. The arrival of the AMRAAM and an expanded F-16 force into PAF service balances the regional air-power equation, to a degree. AMRAAM deliveries to the PAF will start in 2008 and run until 2011. The contract with Raytheon is a Foreign Military Sales agreement, so missiles will be allocated to Pakistan from the relevant annual production lots for the US government. The 200 AIM-9M Sidewinders are being delivered from refurbished stocks. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder order is part of a much larger US-supplied F-16 weapons package for Pakistan, originally announced in June 2006.

● The Pakistan Air Force will,
for the first time, gain a BVR
active-radar AAM capability
● The AMRAAM sale is the
biggest single export order
for the AIM-120

(this was taken from JDW 2007 issue)

They may surely know more then me about their own country armed forces, but they surely don't know much about the other armed forces other then what's printed and known to all.

Its not a hard and fast rule that in every cable related to defence you have to bring in the military attache or write through him.

Yeah as a general rule its good, the more you fly the more your skills are, but sometimes other factors also play a role through which even with less flying your skills improve.

Yeah numerical mainstay, they are talking about something which has yet to come in numerical / quantitative way, they don't know and did not mentioned the qualitative status these jets will reach by the time they get inducted. Plus, she leaves out the other platforms we may have by the time this numerical mainstay gets inducted.

As said its all hypothetical.

Arrey,Has a US diplomat told you or what that it's not a hard and fast rule?
Or you are a serving diplomat of US State Department?
J-10B's are yet to be inducted,only new inductions in PAF are JFT's and the up-gradation of Old F-16A's.

Anyways as debate is about MKI's IAF has 180-185 MKI's.(incl.112 HAL made).

 

[Manticore]

Regarding the bvr training today and in the past , I will post some info




I read that in the excercises of 1997 ,F-16s fired Aim-7M/Fs on F-7Ps aswell as other bvr of southafrican origin

quoting

We did get around 200 -7Fs I know this coz they were maintained at PAF Badaber

globalsec

If PAF was so interested in this weapon, they could have aquired reverse engineered Aspides from china (Pl-11). --- The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine

Modern simulators are just amazing. They are very, very close to perfect, and especially when dealing with expensive jet aircraft, one can practice without the enormous expense of flying the real thing.

Very few people know that simulators are so good, airline pilots can be 100% certified to fly a Boeing 777, for example, without ever leaving the ground. His very first flight can be a revenue flight from NY to Tokyo. The days of flying around in empty jets for training purposes are long gone.

Military fighter sims are perfect for simulating night operations, BVR, and intercepts. And of course, all of them are needed to practice emergencies and malfunctions.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4408.html



If an old version of Sidewinders fired from E-pole at 25G the pilot has to pull 9Gs in order to evade the misslie. [3x G rule]


AWACs and refuellers gives paf fighters the 2 things they lacked individually --- I didnt know that I had to spell that out for you

 

[Windjammer]

After Pakistan purchased it's initial 40 F-16s, the Indians went berserk with a spending spree, purchasing MiG-23s, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, however, after India's induction of MKIs, we didn't witness such knee jerk reaction from Pakistan, even when we had the option and funds to purchase the EFT, which incidentally made mince meat of the MKI on the sides of the joint RAF/IAF exercise, India Danush or something. Since every one is assuming on the next battlefield scenario and drawing conclusions on hear say, well suffice to repeat the comments of a well connected PAF guy i spoke to....."We know what we are capable of, and they also have an idea of our capabilities, it's not a game that we disclose all our capabilities just to boast the public moral, the mission is to deliver when challenged or the need arises.".... here is another little insider, during the 2002 stand off with India, PAF inducted some F-7PG fighter/interceptors.....why when we already had fighters that could shoot Papa/Lima, PL-8s and Magic-550s.....should leave little room for imagination. The internet warriors can feed on any scenario but as the saying goes, boards don't hit back but bullets kill. !!

 

[Harry Potter]

I read that in the excercises of 1997 ,F-16s fired Aim-7M/Fs on F-7Ps aswell as other bvr of southafrican origin

quoting

globalsec

If PAF was so interested in this weapon, they could have aquired reverse engineered Aspides from china (Pl-11).
--- The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine

Aim 7M has a kill probability of less than 40%

The AIM-7M was used extensively during the Gulf War in 1991 by the U.S. Air Force. It was responsible for many air-to-air kills, though its kill probability remained under 40 pct.

Aircraft Weapons: AIM-7 Sparrow
No wonder no mass induction was made.

Please don't bring in missiles not confirmed officially if don't blame me if I bring in Awac's Killers like Novator K-100.

 

[JonAsad]

In case the war is imminent-
The best option will be to do a 6-Day on India-
preemptive strikes- cripple IAF offense-
plus we can add ice to the cake by tagging along few precision cruise missiles-
Su too close to border will give us an extra advantage-

Aim 7M has a kill probability of less than 40%

Aircraft Weapons: AIM-7 Sparrow
No wonder no mass induction was made.

Please don't bring in missiles not confirmed officially if don't blame me if I bring in Awac's Killers like Novator K-100.

Actualy he has mentioned the reason-
Only if you read and not do partial reading-

--- The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine

 

[Harry Potter]

BTW how is F-16 going to evade Python-4?
SIPRI revealed that we acquired a Python-4's in 2007.

 

[dbc]

I wasn't expecting this out of you. I thought you knew much more about the stuff.

So you want to shoot the messenger?

 

[Harry Potter]

Actualy he has mentioned the reason-
Only if you read and not do partial reading-

Beta,
You know the difference between Active homing and Semi active homing?
Both entirely different.

Pilots who used Semi-active missiles face considerable problem switching to active radar BVR.

 

[notorious_eagle]

BTW how is F-16 going to evade Python-4?
SIPRI revealed that we acquired a Python-4's in 2007.

Chaffs, flares, evasive manoeuvres, ECM and several other tactics a pilot can employ to shake off a WVR missile. Problem is that WVR missiles have a great kill ratio due to the reduced range. The lesser the range is, the great the probability of a kill.

The question you should be asking is what will the MKI pilot do to shake of the AIM9-M from its tale. I would put my money on the AIM9-M due to the sheer R&D and testing this missile has gone through. Python 4 no matter how innovative it is, cannot match the reliability of the AIM9-M. Those huge exhaust engines off the MKI will be a magnet for a IR seeking missile which will home in right at those engines due to their massive IR signature.

You yourself told not to bring in Surface to Surface missiles!!
Anyway's Subsonic missiles like BAbur are can be easily brought down by Spyder's SAM.

Anything that flies can be brought down. This is where the tactics come in. It will be upto PAF how effectively they employ Babur to overcome Indian defences. Babur is a subsonic missile which is designed to fly low, huge the terrain so it can evade the radar. How good Babur is or how good IAF radar system is to track low flying cruise missiles is up for the professionals to answer.

Awac's, A2A refueling??
What's new in this?
Nearly every IAF platform incl.MiG-21's have A2A refueling capability.

Force multipliers

AWACS enable PAF to look deep into IAF territory without getting close to the danger line. Any airborne IAF asset will be tracked by the AWACS and any low flying strike package will be spotted too. Instead of loading up every aircraft with an expensive radar, AWACS enables PAF to data-link all her assets giving them a comprehensive situational awareness. In the past the MKI could fly with impunity with its exceptional PESA radar. It enabled the MKI to look deep into PAF territory without crossing the border. Now this has changed. I would argue the AWACS are without a doubt the single most precious asset in PAF's inventory.

A2A refuelling allows PAF to increase the endurance of its planes. The biggest hurdle that PAF faced in the past was that its airplanes had short legs. An aircraft burns almost half of its fuel during take off due to the usage of its after burner. Now PAF can load its planes with heavy ordinance, fill enough fuel for it to take off and than refuel in the air. This increases the endurance of the aircraft. Now our Mirage V can carry out long range precision strikes close to the border, in the past PAF did not have this luxury.

Beta,
You know the difference between Active homing and Semi active homing?
Both entirely different.

Pilots who used Semi-active missiles face considerable problem switching to active radar BVR.

Thats why i love the AIM120. As soon as the opposing pilot tries to jam the AIM 120, it switches its Active Sensors into Passive Sensors and homes into the jamming source . So far the pilots using the AIM120 have not faced any problems even though its a semi active missile. Its quality and its kill ratio speaks for itself .

 

[danger007]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---that is what the paf been doing for the last so many years.

Also a consideration that was mentioned by orangzeb---. The su30 stationed 50 miles to a 100 miles from pak border or bases are extremely vulnerable as well.

The spool up time for the jf 17 is much shorter than that of the su30---. Once the jf17 gets airborne from kamra---the su30 based in srinagar won't even have time for its engine to spool up to take off power before the jf's are right on top of the base---.

I firmly believe that there are those on the indian side---who either out of ignorance or for genuine concern for pakistan ( which means that there are those in india who don't want india to come ahead in a conflict ) have deployed the su30's so close to the pak border---.

Looking at the time that he su30 can stay in the air there was no reason for it to be closer to the border----it is just like the usaf deplying the b2 bomber in qatar to bomb iran.

Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM.... do you think we don't have SAM's??

 

[Irfan Baloch]

After Pakistan purchased it's initial 40 F-16s, the Indians went berserk with a spending spree, purchasing MiG-23s, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, however, after India's induction of MKIs, we didn't witness such knee jerk reaction from Pakistan, even when we had the option and funds to purchase the EFT, which incidentally made mince meat of the MKI on the sides of the joint RAF/IAF exercise, India Danush or something. Since every one is assuming on the next battlefield scenario and drawing conclusions on hear say, well suffice to repeat the comments of a well connected PAF guy i spoke to....."We know what we are capable of, and they also have an idea of our capabilities, it's not a game that we disclose all our capabilities just to boast the public moral, the mission is to deliver when challenged or the need arises.".... here is another little insider, during the 2002 stand off with India, PAF inducted some F-7PG fighter/interceptors.....why when we already had fighters that could shoot Papa/Lima, PL-8s and Magic-550s.....should leave little room for imagination. The internet warriors can feed on any scenario but as the saying goes, boards don't hit back but bullets kill. !!

what my direhard Indians fail to see is that the hypothetical scenario is about encountering SU-30 MKI in Pakistani airspace, they have brought in their SAMs and Brahmos and Kargil and Makti Mahmi and their ground radars totally missing the point of the thread.

if the thread had been about how PAF was to counter IAF or Indian air defence then fine they can bring their space cruisers as well but here the scope was only about how PAF was to fight the MKI in its airspace with whatever it has at its disposal.

Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM....

chanda,

the thread is not about PAF attacking India, its about facing off with MKI , specially when MKI is invading Pakistani airspace.

 

[danger007]

what my direhard Internet Hindus fail to see is that the hypothetical scenario is about encountering SU-30 MKI in Pakistani airspace, they have brought in their SAMs and Brahmos and Kargil and Makti Mahmi and their ground radars totally missing the point of the thread.

if the thread had been about how PAF was to counter IAF or Indian air defence then fine they can bring their space cruisers as well but here the scope was only about how PAF was to fight the MKI in its airspace with whatever it has at its disposal.



chanda,

the thread is not about PAF attacking India, its about facing off with MKI , specially when MKI is invading Pakistani airspace.

im responding MK post..... every has right share his views ..... please read MK post once... i got doubt ,so i just asked him...


being a moderator bringing religion , calling Indian members as Internet hindu's is not good..... you don't know every one religion..... can we use Internet muslim's???

 

[TaimiKhan]

So you want to shoot the messenger?

Nops, but i remember you to be good at this, such short analysis were not what you were used to be good at and known for

I just wanna say, i was expecting more out of you.

 

[danger007]

@ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????

 

[notorious_eagle]

Not a prob.... but he don't know every one religion.... im dalith believed in Christianity .... still i oppose any one talking bad about my fellow (Indian) members... let they are muslims,hindu's what eva ..... because they are my bro's.... If the topic is in between west / EU and Asians.... i will support Asians...


@ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????

Long enough for the Indians to retreat.

The entire premise behind India's new war-fighting doctrine is to fight a short war without reaching the nuclear threshold. Indians are expecting to fight a war for 96 hours in this new strategy, that means PAF has more than enough reserves to keep afloat during this time period.