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How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

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Our air force has a plan for all the oppositions air assets, needless to say - no air craft has ever taken to the air - without gaps and weaknesses - it is our job to expose those loopholes in any conflict. < Nuff said >
 
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Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.
 
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I accept that 20 m RCS of su30 is a disadvantage,The sukhoi has the advantage in terms of BARS and can lock on 3 to 5 RCS aircrafts like jf17 and j10 at excess of 130 km and launch R23 with 100+ range , before jf17 can archive radar lockon on the su30 , AWACS dosent help as su carries k100 which can be a cyanide for radars.
 
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Darky - Just one correction.

THat is incorrect - modified Su 30 will be capable of carrying only one Brahmos - and not 2-3 Brahmos. Older ones are not capable to carry even one ! This was later confirmed by Sivanthu pillai - even though there is a pic floating around which shows 2-3 Brahmos underneath a Su belly.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------



Can you explain why there wouldnt be a AWECS cover for PAF once it crosses IB ? AFAIK , PAF erie or ZDK both has the capability to see inside indian IB ! Just the way Phalcon will be doing.

High Value Assets Don't Fly Near Hostile Territory, Even With 300Km+ Detection Range They Can't Help Much Because India Got Robust SAM Network And Most Of IAF Bases Are Situated Far From IR.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

Our air force has a plan for all the oppositions air assets, needless to say - no air craft has ever taken to the air - without gaps and weaknesses - it is our job to expose those loopholes in any conflict. < Nuff said >

Yes Same Here, Our Job Is To Exploit Weaknesses

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------

Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.

Please, Nobody Said That Su30Mki Is Invincible....Your Post Are Not Helpful Nor Constructive.
Regards
 
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There's one simple method of countering any weapon; forget all this needless and wronged anger and start afresh. You will automatically conquer your enemy without raising a finger. :)
 
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SU-27 was purely designed in late 70's for Russian war doctrine vs US.
Keep in mind, no other war theater may be a replica of Russia vs US air combat over Alaska.

History is like, In 70's Russian Vympel had very poor hit rate as compare to US AIM.
So the design philosophy of Russians, was to make an air truck, which can carry maximum BVR.
The application of SU revolves around 'shoot & scoot' game plan.

Principally, Russian idea was to overwhelm the incoming enemy a/c with flood of low hit rate, but long range missiles.
It was indeed a very clever strategy considering their own weakness and American strengths.

Point is, SU is good for what it is designed for but any further is no go area for SU.
e.g. Close combats in tight airspace, with presence of AWACS and AESA radars this truck stand no chance even against mig-21.

All Pakistan need is to forget about J-10, F-16 etc... and induct JFT & SD-10 in numbers and game is over for InAF.
I am sorry but I am being logical here, Su-27, 30 and Russian fighters in general are known for their dogfight and maneuverability capabilities over western counterparts. Further more-in my opinion- Russian short and medium AA missiles especially R-73 M2 are better than western Sidewinder in terms of range and hit rate error. Although that Pakistani pilots proved their professional skills in international air exercises, but its obvious that Su-30 MKI is more capable and advanced than JF-17 or F-16 block 52. Lets just hope that Pakistan gets J-20.
 
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Put it another way: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

If you have less soldiers than your enemy but your soldiers have longer distance rifles and are better marksmen, they why would you want to go into combat within your opponent's reach? You would not. Your opponent have more troops, that is a 'rule' that you do not have. You have longer distance rifles and better marksmen, two 'rules' in your favor that your opponent does not have. So why would you want to get into a shooting match within his inferior rifles' distance, especially when you have less troops than he?

But the major problem for your advice, while in theory is true and admirable, in practice it is extremely difficult to apply. Assume that the Su does have a higher IR signature. The question then is how are you going to apply the 'exploitation of weaknesses' advice in training, in other words, how can you simulate that higher IR signature in as many variety of combat and flight situations as possible for your pilots to learn how to spot and exploit?

Infrared, just like radar, can vary according to target aspect angle, meaning how the target is facing (viewing) you -- the seeker. Not every aircraft is going to produce the same intensity and the more maneuverable ones can deny you that information really quick. What can you do to replicate those conditions to confuse your pilots in training so that they will not be confused in a war?

This is a real problem and it is real enough for US that we ended up with Red Flag and these guys...

4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This forum have a former F-15 pilot. Odds are good that he faced a MIG-21 in training. The US have nothing in inventory that could match the -21 in air combat maneuvers, as in how quickly can it turn, does it have any unique in-flight behaviors that could help our pilots in predicting what a -21 pilot must do, how can a -21 pilot exploit his small size, what altitude is the -21 best at, all these advantages are 'rules' that a -21 pilot can force his opponent to fight under. Then the -21 pilot win.

Can you train a soldier to be a sniper so the rest of your army can learn how to deal with snipers? Yes. But can you produce an Su so your non-Su pilots can learn how to deal with an Su should that day ever come? If not, then what do you have that can come close enough?

For US, we had to get real MIGs. Then it was decades of learning and simulating and learning how to simulate that we now can comfortably part with our MIGs. But even so, every US military service have a 'Foreign Technology Exploitation' office whose work are top secret.


We do not want to go to war but unless we actually literally kill ourselves in live fire war games to have real combat experience, we should have training programs and regiments that should come as close to real as possible. In my days and that was during the Cold War, we have inspectors walking around putting red tags on people to indicate casualties and deny the unit manpower. Today we have laser tags to virtually 'kill' a soldier. At Red Flag, the only limitations are altitude and live missiles.

The point is this: War and combat are confusing enough so the goal should be to have as realistic of war and combat training as possible in peacetime so our forces can have as many combat instincts as possible to increase their odds of survival in a real war. That is why we have Red Flag and Fighter Weapons School. That is why we conduct revealing and embarrassing exercises like the Millennium Challenge that so many misunderstood to be the end of the US Navy in a Persian Gulf scenario. These gullibles are so wrong and they do not even know it. That is why Desert Storm was so shocking to most but not to training specialists worldwide who know of our training programs.

If:

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours.

Then:

In peacetime training, you should have as many of your opponent's rules as possible, or as close to real as possible, so your forces can study and learn how to avoid getting trapped by a real enemy.

Good points.
 
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Dear members,

I would like to present my views on this thread which seems to have gathered a lot of momentum. I will not be able to go into critical data on an open forum. I have been following aviation posts and have certain perspective that I would like to present to remove the a few misconceptions regarding the SU30 MKI.I have worked for HAL nasik division and have interacted with quite a few CTP&#8217;s to be in a decent position to give you a general perspective on the SU30MKI and its subsystems.

SU 30 MKI Airframe: MKI&#8217;s airframe is very similar to Russian base model irrespective of what others claim. It differs slightly on the load requirements that were presented to the Russians during the development. I left HAL 4 yrs ago, back then there were plans to use domestic material instead of Russian with same or better physical characteristics which is not necessarily an improvement performance wise but a cost saving measure.

Radar: PESA BARS N011 Bars is the biggest ace up IAF&#8217;s sleeve, without divulging into the details detecting range, I can very confidently say that this radar has better resolution, noise cancellation and detection range than Captor and RBE2 hands down. Nothing in the subcontinent can come close to this radar today. I am not fully aware of Chinese subsystems, but this was the take of two Russian CTP&#8217;s 4 years ago. I don&#8217;t think PAF&#8217;s jf 17 radar is as good, but that&#8217;s my perspective and I could be wrong.
SU 30 MKI another advantage it can function as airborne command post and has excellent ability to function as such due to the two person crew and its radar.

Avionics: Additional subsystems like the Israeli HUD, OLS 30, laser/infrared hybrid IRST or also called optical laser tracker is very handy device. IAF and USAF goes gaga over the litening pod, it is as good as it gets.

Upgrades: have been discussed to death, so won&#8217;t go there again

Misconception on this forum about MKI

Airshow aircraft

There is a general American sentiment of flanker that it is a airshow aircraft which has permeated especially in Pakistani members here. Although the thrust vectoring is something I wouldn&#8217;t credit in WVR, without its pucgahevs and tail slides, its still a very high tvr and is a very nimble and agile dogfighter. Its weapons loadout gives immense amount of firepower in WVR conflict with its inherent disadvantage being size.

Lets not forget a fact that SU 30 MKI despite its airshow maneuvers is an excellent high speed performer. Its avionics, radar and weapons load out makes it a deadly BVR platform.

MKI is a huge blip on the radar waiting to be shot down

To begin with I am not a big believer in BVR combat to the ranges that people think it is effective. BVR regime is most effective to half the radar tracking range sometimes even less. Jammers awacs , Self protection suites have equally evolved as have the BVR missiles. MKI is RCS is not much different from that of a F15SE and I don&#8217;t hear the American complain about it. Indian pilots that I have interacted with will never say anything against their plane , but from what I have heard from the Russian ctp&#8217;s SU27 and su30 are not straight up traditional A2A packages. The A2A combat philosophy is more of simultaneous staggered formations entering tactical area to obtain maximum results . Su 30 MkI is not a lone gun slinger which will go up and bring down an aircraft with every pull of the trigger as some of my fellow countrymen here believe.

Pakistan&#8217;s counter to SU30 MKI.

Theoretically you can bring down any aircraft with from fro any platform that PAF fields. Hitting a MKI is not miracle and is possible by almost every platform, But in my honest opinion the most effective platform that counters the threat of MKI&#8217;s firepower and range is PAF&#8217;s SAAB ERIEYE. Awacs platform has given the capability to PAF to detec MKI, SMT, UPG, M2k even a rustom that flies into Pakistani airspace and device a counter to thwart the treat. Hence I wouldn&#8217;t be rushing to order f22&#8217;s as of yet, PAF is very well prepared to faceoff IAF successfully at the present movement. SAAB erieye and the chiniese awacs platform will provide a stiff counter to whatever IAF throws at them.
 
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I am sorry but I am being logical here, Su-27, 30 and Russian fighters in general are known for their dogfight and maneuverability capabilities over western counterparts. Further more-in my opinion- Russian short and medium AA missiles especially R-73 M2 are better than western Sidewinder in terms of range and hit rate error. Although that Pakistani pilots proved their professional skills in international air exercises, but its obvious that Su-30 MKI is more capable and advanced than JF-17 or F-16 block 52. Lets just hope that Pakistan gets J-20.

Those are short range IR-guided missiles :lol:

The AIM-9 Sidewinder has over 200-300 kills till date. Enough said.
 
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But the major problem for your advice, while in theory is true and admirable, in practice it is extremely difficult to apply. Assume that the Su does have a higher IR signature. The question then is how are you going to apply the 'exploitation of weaknesses' advice in training, in other words, how can you simulate that higher IR signature in as many variety of combat and flight situations as possible for your pilots to learn how to spot and exploit?
Infrared, just like radar, can vary according to target aspect angle, meaning how the target is facing (viewing) you -- the seeker. Not every aircraft is going to produce the same intensity and the more maneuverable ones can deny you that information really quick. What can you do to replicate those conditions to confuse your pilots in training so that they will not be confused in a war?
This is a real problem and it is real enough for US that we ended up with Red Flag and these guys...

Very true. Also i think the reason back then US needed 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron because perhaps you did not have an ally or friendly formidable air force &#8211;having your adversary&#8217;s aircrafts- with whom you could carry out Air Combat exercises. So by one way or the other get hold of a adversary&#8217;s aircraft give it to 4477th which US did and test and practice and use simulators if the info can be translated into sims.
So did Israel in 1973. Got hold of a latest MiG-21 and practiced (defected Pilot from Iraq). if they had an ally with MiG 21 in their inventory they would have exercised with them too.
I am also assuming that SU30 has a higher IR signature &#8211; but based on my own humble observations, I haven&#8217;t seen SU30 in flesh (rather in metal :-)) but can only guess that perhaps my theory holds based on Pictures that we have seen of the aircraft &#8211; Metal nacelles of aircraft. Engines overly exposed &#8211; and reading a bit on IR Signature. Now what i was getting to was that overly exposed Engine IR signature would make it a tad bit more susceptible to IR missiles, in my Initial Post I stressed on all aspect AIM sidewinder.
Usually the rear aspect of the aircraft is best for Heat seeker to score a kill, based on what I was pointing out as Over exposure the side Aspects and certainly top Aspect would give a better IRS and better chances for a AIM-9 sidewinder Kill.

I am presenting a case based on some observations, Like when people make observations of T-50 and its dimensions and point out in their opinion which part might not be cloaking the aircraft from radar. Obviously most of us interested in Avionics, Defence and such like do not have radars of our own to test our theories :-) but make observations and like to discuss about it &#8211; us being defence enthusiasts. If our theory holds &#8211;don&#8217;t know about others- but i would be very happy.

Now regarding getting a hold on an aircraft to study it and practice
PAF has had a play around with SU-30s the Chinese MKs

Pak-China7.jpg


Pak-China11.jpg


Pak-China13.jpg


You are 100% correct we need to have Combat Exercise experience which we do,
like PAF-PLAAF undertaking joint Air Exercise - Shaheen-1 and such like, we don&#8217;t have Red Flag but this is good too. Also thread on this forum.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...dertaking-joint-air-exercise-shaheen-1-a.html
So PAF gets to study the Su-30 MK, now me being a software engineer, I think that if PAF uses IR tracking system and from various aspects of the aircraft they can observe and model the IR Signature and translate into a modelling system that replicates it in Combat simulators. Just my humble opinion a well versed guy in this regard can comment. How much useful that would be God knows.
I will leave more rambling on this for laterz :)
This forum have a former F-15 pilot. Odds are good that he faced a MIG-21 in training. The US have nothing in inventory that could match the -21 in air combat maneuvers, as in how quickly can it turn, does it have any unique in-flight behaviors that could help our pilots in predicting what a -21 pilot must do, how can a -21 pilot exploit his small size, what altitude is the -21 best at, all these advantages are 'rules' that a -21 pilot can force his opponent to fight under. Then the -21 pilot win.
Though following might take me off topic a bit but i will indulge in the guilty pleasure just a lil bit.
Israel had a great run with F-15s against MiG-21s real combat. In their first ever encounter F-15 Vs MiG-21 , they scored on AIM-7, one Heat seeker missle and one classic cannon kill.. all in one encounter 3 kills long range, Medium heat seeker, and Gun

MiG-21 is a great interceptor,
nice climb
not easy to catch on Radar low RCS
Fast and light,

But I thought it wasn&#8217;t that manoeuvrable

quoting from somewhere that at high speeds and low Altitude the MiG21&#8217;s control surfaces become sluggish/unresponsive. Besides the whole point though.

I would not argue with our Indian friends on their opinion that MiG-21&#8217;s small RCS works wonders for it but SU-30&#8217;s Big RCS is a blessing.

P.S. Your post was a interesting read cheers mate.
 
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A little, education lesson. Any Flanker can do the cobra with a full weapons load.

You mean like in this video? That's not just a cobra it's doing, this is awesome. Su-35 with full A-A load. :eek:

Watch from 2:15
Farnborough Airshow 1994: part 1/2 - YouTube

Cross posting from Keypublishing forum

The Su-30MK demonstrator - bort 603 - appeared at the 1994 Farnborough show with a full weapons load.

Stung by western criticism that it was doing its display empty, Mikhail Simonov ordered that it be fully tooled up.

It then flew its aerobatic routine fully loaded with a 15,430lb of weapons - albeit dummies but at representative weights.

There are photos of it taking off for its display with a full load - but I don't know about any vids.....

Just found this YouTube clip - Farnborough 1994 - it shows the Su-35 (T10M) flown by Yevgenniy Frolov doing an incredible aerobatic routine with a full complement of A2A miisiles...

Ken
 
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Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.

One who never fought will remain invincible... f22 has never seen combat.
 
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