How many Of Our Generals faught in WW2?

[M8R]

I agree with your appreciation of this general, who was excellently rated by his superiors. His tragic death must be counted as one of those strokes of inexplicable bad luck that surrounded the Pakistan Army; I can recount three others, really strange occurrences.

Your forecast of what might have happened is something else again; the Pakistan Army didn't move officially at first because Gracey objected, and Iftikhar Khan could have done nothing about it without flatly disobeying orders. That school of soldier would have died before doing such a thing. Note that he was alive at the time of Kashmir; he died later, in 1949, and Ayub became C-in-C later.

Your forecast about East Pakistan is baffling. Ayub got extension after extension because of his proximity to Iskandar Mirza, and would have retired long before. Therefore Iftikhar Khan would have retired even earlier, well before 63/64. How did you think of Bangladesh (eight years later than his last possible date of service) in connection with him?

Well 1971 was triggered due to chain of events leading to Civil war in East Pakistan .Dictatorship had a huge role in East Pakistan Crisis.Had General Iftikhar taken command Ayub Khan would have retired instead of becoming COAS hence no coup (General Iftikhar was very professional) and Bengali's would have been allowed to rule in 1971.Re: Kashmir i mean if he planned any real war he would have most likely executed it successfully unlike Ayub who changed commands at crucial moment ( was not talking about 47-48 war)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well 1971 was triggered due to chain of events leading to Civil war in East Pakistan .Dictatorship had a huge rule.Had General Iftikhar taken command Ayub Khan would have retired instead of becoming COAS and its likely and there would be no coup and Bengali's would have been allowed to rule in 1971.Re: Kashmir i mean if he planned any real war he would have most likely executed it successfully unlike Ayub who changed commands at crucial moment ( was not talking about 47-48 war)

Dear Sir,

You are more formidable than you appear at first.

The point about Bangladesh is beautifully thought through. It makes sense. Would you mind expanding it? I would like to copy it on another forum where I am a member.

About Kashmir, my apologies, I thought automatically about 47-48, and of course, that did not fit. It was not clear from your first post that you were thinking about Akhtar Hussain Mallik's battlefield replacement by Yahya Khan, when Musa Khan swooped down on General Mallik by helicopter and literally whisked him away. What a damn' fool thing to do! Harbaksh Singh, one of our best generals ever, who was watching things with horror, having only a thin screen in place, naturally lost no time in rushing reinforcements in, so by the time Yahya figured out the battlefield position (he took two days to do that!), it was too late, the chance had come and gone. Harbaksh himself, and Amrinder Singh of Patiala, his ADC, both credit this two-day gap with saving the situation at Chhamb-Jaurian.

This, incidentally, is one of the three tragedies of bad luck to hit the PA, which I referred to earlier.

I think you have made your point very convincingly. Excellent analysis, Sir.

Sincerely,

 

[k!ng_0f_(~)3@rt$]

Great History

 

[Tiger Awan]

A brother of my maternal Grandfather also fought in WWII in Burma but wasn't a General.

I only know him and that till his death he received pension from British Army...

KIT Over

My maternal Grand father fought there too. In-fact got injured after a bullet passed through his shoulder. Served till 1979. Retired as a Major. Now he is 89 but remember each and every thing about WW2

 

[mikkix]

Guys that makes me clear that our generals first served the britishers,,
now americans
tomorrow who knows israel???
I m very ashamed of all that....

 

[r3alist]

yes we were loyal subjects to our british masters

 

[Joe Shearer]

My maternal Grand father fought there too. In-fact got injured after a bullet passed through his shoulder. Served till 1979. Retired as a Major. Now he is 89 but remember each and every thing about WW2

Dear Sir,

PLEASE GET HIM TO RECORD HIS MEMORIES IMMEDIATELY; THIS IS URGENT.

He is living history; there are very few survivors left. It is extremely urgent that his memories should be recorded, there is no time to be lost.

My 91 year old father has just completed recording his impressions of serving with the British 1942 to 1947, and it is with the publishers.

Sincerely,

 

[Joe Shearer]

Guys that makes me clear that our generals first served the britishers,,
now americans
tomorrow who knows israel???
I m very ashamed of all that....

Dear Sir,

I am astonished.

These were not citizen armies, they were professional armies, soldiers fighting professionally. And they did a mighty fine job of it too.

As far as the four prominent nationalities which contribute to this forum go, Pakistani generals have been among the most patriotic and have served their country well. Why you overlook that and look at the geo-political situation today, which demands a certain state response and compliance by all servants of the state, is not clear.

Indian generals have fought for nobody but India; there were no Indian, or Pakistani generals during WWII. The seniormost native officer was Cariappa; he wasn't, if you look up his record, higher than field rank. I am being smart-alecky, I know, but what the heck.

Chinese generals have always fought for a people's army. So far they have a remarkable battle record, with only the skirmishes with Vietnam a blot on their records.

Bangladeshi generals have little explanation or apologising to do.

Why should we feel ashamed about a reality, that was the British Empire? Another member, on another thread, is tying himself into complicated knots trying to prove that in Modern India, it is possible for a Hindu to change from one caste to another. We should face past realities, acknowledge them and move on. We have to face present realities, if only to struggle against them, or be punished by being burdened with them for all times to come.

Sincerely,

 

[courageneverdies]

Dear Sir,

PLEASE GET HIM TO RECORD HIS MEMORIES IMMEDIATELY; THIS IS URGENT.

He is living history; there are very few survivors left. It is extremely urgent that his memories should be recorded, there is no time to be lost.

My 91 year old father has just completed recording his impressions of serving with the British 1942 to 1947, and it is with the publishers.

Sincerely,

I Concur. Its imperative that such information maybe jotted down to preserve history. It can be a very helpful thing for many a persons. Unfortunately, I'm not able to do so, because "My Man" is now "Late".

KIT Over

 

[Solomon2]

...our generals first served the britishers,,
now americans tomorrow who knows israel???

The first Pakistani general to "serve Israel" was Zia back in 1970, when he commanded a Jordanian Army division against the PLO. link

 

[sparklingway]

Ayub Khan did not have any war experience in WW II. Altaf Gauhar who ghost-wrote Ayub's memoirs late wrote in "Ayub Khan: Pakistan's First Military Ruler" that Ayub saw some heavy fighting in Burma. As of now, I have come across no other claims proving that and most historians I have talked to maintain this as well. Altauf Fauhar and Gohar Ayub have "created" the fact that Ayub served as Staff Officer is the 1st Assam Regiment in Burma towards the end of the war but in actuality he served a lowly prestigious and newly raised Chamar Regiment (which was disbanded after the war) and received a series of bad ACRs as well. Maj Gen Sher Ali Khan claims to have seen his ACR upon which Ayub was supposedly sacked but survived amongst the racks due to some administrative mistake over the issue. You can read more about it here as well :- http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/49477-comment-ayub-khan-s-appointment.html and http://int-history.blogspot.com/2010/03/ayub-khans-early-career-dr-hamid.html

Iskander Mirza was no "true" military man either. Commissioned in Sandhurst but he had no war experience (Waziristan in '20s should not be counted as a serious war experience) and upon joining the ICS through the IPS, served as a political agent and AC in NWFP and after Independence was appointed as the Defence Secretary (and influential in getting Ayub appointed as CnC over Maj Gen Nazir and Maj Gen Majid after Iftikhar Khan tragically died in the air crash). Mirza's dual footing in the bureaucracy and the military helped him and became the source of his problems towards the end as well. The "Babu Coup" of Ghulam Muhammad and later his own imposed Martial Law allowed him to be present amongst both the dominant non-elected state forces and he was exiled in disgrace by his appointed CMLA weeks after he imposed Martial Law (Mirza's grandson has been running an online PR campaign but sanity demands that one should not absolve their elders of what they did)

Maj Gen Nazir was retired for a "connection" in the famed Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case. His role was never established in any court of law.

Maj Gen Majid was one of the few officers to have shown any nerve to the British unlike his colleagues who were selected and promoted precisely for their docility and allegiance to the Union Jack and he had command a brigade in Kashmir during the war when Ayub was posted in NWFP and East Pakistan.

The others not mentioned here are Nawabzada Agha Mohammad Raza who served as our Ambassador later, Fazal-ur-Rehman Kallue and Faiz Muhammad who were serving as Brigadiers at the time of the partition (other than Iftikhar and Akbar)

 

[fatman17]

all officers who reached the rank of general and were commissioned in 1940 or earlier, fought in WW2 as junior officers. they attained the higher ranks during their tenures in the PA.

that list is huge of junior officers who were transferred to the PA at the time of independence (~4,000).

Ayub Khans PA no was 10, so there were 9 officers who were senior to him at the time of independence.

 

[SQ8]

Some pilots did as well, Mention should be made of those defectors who fought with the Indian national army, they should be mentioned as well, pity quite a few of them did not get to serve their countries due to the British presence in the senior commands of both countries after Independence.

 

[Patriot]

yes we were loyal subjects to our british masters

yea, no doubt- In fact you're one i guess living in UK.

 

[theboss]

A general should be loyal to what ever millitary he is fighting for. past is past and one has to move on. Its not like PAF is carrying forward the British legacy anymore. And yes losing Bangladesh was Pakistan own blunder followed by assistance of oppurtunist India. Had India held back and helped Pakistan counter the insurgency, it would have resolved lost trust and strengthen ties and perhaps neutralized many mutal threats. Now indians have to live under continous threat of Pak nukes for their misadventure.