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How Kashmir was stolen from Pakistan by Mountbatten

There was widespread protest in Kargil against the killings in Gilgit. There are lots of videos on youtube.

i heard about even more widespread rioting after Shopian rapes, and the uncovering of more mass graves (what was the final body count?)


to even juxtapose the level of unrest of east side of LoC with west side is basically ignoring ground realities. No matter how much you try to spin it.


as for economy -- Kashmir isnt a conflict of economics; and even though there is a sectarian dimension to it that has kept Kashmiris somewhat divided at times -- the younger generations see it more as a secular nationalist movement.

the whole pundits oppression thing has been exaggerated though it is true that there were crimes against pundits (as there were against Muslims by the occupation forces)


Kashmiri Pandits: Why we never fled Kashmir - Kashmir: The forgotten conflict - Al Jazeera English
 
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i heard about even more widespread rioting after Shopian rapes, and the uncovering of more mass graves (what was the final body count?)

Atleast you know of the mass graves and then people say that media is heavily regulated.. India would not have like that news to come out..


to even juxtapose the level of unrest of east side of LoC with west side is basically ignoring ground realities. No matter how much you try to spin it.

How did you compare, did you invent a new device to measure unrest keeping all the factors constant, removing the insurgency angle Pakistan has actively supported?

as for economy -- Kashmir isnt a conflict of economics; and even though there is a sectarian dimension to it that has kept Kashmiris somewhat divided at times -- the younger generations see it more as a secular nationalist movement.

The younger generations are more educated, they know what is the reality and have the means... I will challenge you that once the insurgency is removed completely your assertions will be nullified..
 
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to even juxtapose the level of unrest of east side of LoC with west side is basically ignoring ground realities. No matter how much you try to spin it.

Even a Pakistani citizen need government permission to visit the Pakistani side of Jammu and Kashmir and everything is well censored. So, how will I know the comparison. Freedom house rate Pakistan controlled J&K as "Not Free". Pakistan just applied Soviet-Afghan war tactics in Kashmir which causes more bloodshed but the tactic failed.


as for economy -- Kashmir isnt a conflict of economics; and even though there is a sectarian dimension to it that has kept Kashmiris somewhat divided at times -- the younger generations see it more as a secular nationalist movement.

Its a lost cause.
 
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Truly? Well, well. I find that I am a one-eyed man, being led by the blind.

A later visit showed that the communal element had organised.

And we were informed in solemnly intoned words about a contrasting visit; let us re-visit that as well.

I leave it to those blessed with better sight to decide who is one-eyed and who is blind in this matter. But we linger and tarry; it is still a long way to St. Dunstan's.

Sir,
The title of the book says it all. The author’s orientation is towards religion and fundamentalism etc leading to the present time. He for obvious reasons could not explain the Kashmiri movement in other details which are necessary in order to look at it objectively.

One cannot explain everything in detail but in the limited space that one can, let me highlight certain aspects. Sheikh Abdullah, since 1930 when he emerged on the political scene, swung like a pendulum between representing the oppressed Kashmiri Muslims, liberalistic thoughts and inclination towards Congress. Incidently, I hope you agree that the majority Kashmiri Muslims were terribly oppressed under the Maharaja rule, as so much has been written on this by independent observers that it is difficult to deny it. Sheikh Abdullah’s liberal views were needed for support of Hindu Pandits and Congress. But when he would cross certain lines, he would tend to lose his stature amongst his Muslim followers.

He also wanted to become famous. Gandhi was known as Mahatma, Ghaffar Khan was known as Sarhaddi Gandhi, Abdus Samad Achakzai was known as Gandhi of Balochistan and he wanted to become Kashmiri Gandhi. This would also tend to lose his Muslim support which was his base. So, for Muslim support he would make certain speeches and for the rest, he would make conciliatory statements to suit their needs.

In one such mode, in 1940 on Eide-e-Miladun Nabi, while addressing a Muslim gathering he identified Islam as the rising of sun and other religions as stars which would lose their spark as the sun would rise. This put him squarely against his liberal credentials and resulted in his falling apart with his Hindu Pandit friends. In a National Conference meeting when he was asked about his statement, he got angry and said he believed in what he said. Yet when he realized that this went against him in Congress he retracted. Later, when he felt that his Muslims supporters were getting annoyed he once again in a gathering said the same thing. This further alienated the Hindu and Congress allies.

Pandit Premnath Bazaz was Sheikh Abdullah’s friend and had served 3 year’s jail sentence with him. But on his statement about Islam being a sun, he and others went against him. Bazaz, also wrote a book titled Inside Kashmir in which he crtisized National Conference. Sheikh who also befriended the Prime Minister of Kashmir, Iyenger, a fundamentalist leaning Hindu helped to ban the book in Kashmir. But Bazaz went on speaking against Sheikh and made damaging revelations against him, which alienated His Muslim supporters.

By the time Nehru visited Kashmir, Sheikh Abdullah’s Muslim Conference was broken in to National Conference and its liberal constitution was re-written. This had further alienated Muslims and it were mostly Hindu traders, Pandits and limited Muslims remained to welcome him in Srinagar.

Sir to know who is blind and who is blessed with 20/20, please read Blind Men of Hindoostan by General Sunderjee – not for this topic indeed. :)

Indeed it is long way to St Dunstan’s and offcourse Hanuz Dilli Door Ast

Please tell me when I start irritating you. :)
 
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Sir,
The title of the book says it all. The author’s orientation is towards religion and fundamentalism etc leading to the present time.

....

Indeed it is long way to St Dunstan’s and offcourse Hanuz Dilli Door Ast

Please tell me when I start irritating you. :)

It will be a snowy day in hell when you start irritating me.
 
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What next? Oh, the split in the National Conference, and the departure of a grumpy, sulking Chaudhary Ghulam Abbas.

First, I would like you to reproduce the passage where i called this, that or the other real-politik.

Second, every point of the argument that you have put forward has been methodically refuted. If you have nothing new to add, nor have any response to the points presented by me, then stating what you have stated becomes a cut-and-paste job, you Re invited either to say something new, say something to refute the counter-arguments or to lead a discussion - elsewhere - on the aerodynamic qualities of HMS Ark Royal.

Sir,

I am sorry but No, you have not methodically refuted anything I have written so far. I have not done a cut and paste job as well. I've given my honest opinion as I have read in so many places and have quoted these on many occasions as well. I have repeatedly presented counter arguments and new ones as well.

Regarding aerodynamic qualities of HMS Ark Royal or sea worthiness of Minuteman missile, we can certainly have many more discussions :)

In another thread probably, I had requested that discussions on such topics are never-ending really. You have a viewpoint which you feel is correct and I have my viewpoint which I feel is the right one. The opposite banks of a river never meet, but these can be happily co-joined by the peaceful flow of the river in between occasionally overflowing during floods.

So can we.
 
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Sir,

I am sorry but No, you have not methodically refuted anything I have written so far. I have not done a cut and paste job as well. I've given my honest opinion as I have read in so many places and have quoted these on many occasions as well. I have repeatedly presented counter arguments and new ones as well.

Regarding aerodynamic qualities of HMS Ark Royal or sea worthiness of Minuteman missile, we can certainly have many more discussions :)

In another thread probably, I had requested that discussions on such topics are never-ending really. You have a viewpoint which you feel is correct and I have my viewpoint which I feel is the right one. The opposite banks of a river never meet, but these can be happily co-joined by the flow of the peaceful flow of the river in between occasionally overflowing during floods.

So can we.

Hmmm. You have a way with words, and have done your homework, no bad things in this crowd of young scalawags. You remind me of the best of the members about five years ago. The quality of discussion was far better.

I am forced to be intermittent, part because of the limitations of working with a touchscreen keyboard, ameliorated to some extent by being a touch typist, part because of living alone after a recent bereavement and having to deal with unexpected domestic issues, which my wife can counsel me about only on the trunk line. Bear with me.
 
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Atleast you know of the mass graves and then people say that media is heavily regulated.. India would not have like that news to come out..

locals reported it to the media; it sure as hell wasnt indian media

why do you think foreign press is BANNED from reporting there

you dotheads believe your own lies



:coffee:
 
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locals reported it to the media; it sure as hell wasnt indian media

why do you think foreign press is BANNED from reporting there

you dotheads believe your own lies



:coffee:

Talking of numbskulls believing their own lies...

riyaz_masroor_1.jpg


Riyaz Masroor, BBC World Correspondent, Srinagar, India.
 
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Talking of numbskulls believing their own lies...

riyaz_masroor_1.jpg


Riyaz Masroor, BBC World Correspondent, Srinagar, India.

This guy has a towel on placed on his chair so that his chair doesn't get dirty with his sweat or the oil in his hair. Good God and he is BBC World Correspondent in Srinagar. No wonder the moron can not report anything from there. Probably this is still the norm in India and their babus behave this way. Yuck.

But @Abu Zolfiqar is correct. The information about discovery of mass graves was reported first by New York Times and not an Indian news outlet or an Indian working for a foreign news outlet, like the tauliyay wala moron sitting above.
 
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Talking of numbskulls believing their own lies...

riyaz_masroor_1.jpg


Riyaz Masroor, BBC World Correspondent, Srinagar, India.

It's a vicious cycle, Fateh

Kashmiri journalists have been deprived of presenting true political picture of events in indian occupied Kashmir. It is one of the most unreported regions of the global world. Number of your forces present in the Kashmir region is more than half a million. AFSPA erodes media freedom and rights of journalists. Your forces (sissies) hush up the damaging details of events from the community of journalists. Hell -- why do you think even SMS service is banned there?

It was 11 June 2010 when your security forces (sissies) killed a youth in Sri Nagar. The schoolboy was returning home from tuitions. Incidents like these -- or raping and dumping of Kashmiri teenage girls or the killing and dumping of men in fake encounters is what causes these vicious cycles. Naturally people will resist.


as for Riyaz Masroor -- this BBC reporter -- we know what happened to him already. Many others been through the same treatment.


Police on Friday beat up the senior journalist, Riyaz Masroor, working with Urdu service of BBC, outside his residence at Alocha Bagh in Srinagar.

“I received a phone call from the Information department this morning asking me come and collect the new curfew passes. As soon as I reached near the main road, policemen deployed there beat me up mercilessly,” Masroor said.

Masroor had received multiple injuries and his left arm had been fractured.

Curfew enforce strictly on call for Hazratbal Chalo, Police beat up journalist « Agence India Press


:coffee:
 
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Kashmiris DON'T want Pakistan. Half wanna remain with India others wanna seperate, but no one wants to join Pakistan. If they really wanted to join, why did they report the insurgency when Pakistan launched Operation Gibraltar? Get real guys.

And you want a referendum? We agreed to it long ago, in 1947, and UN agreed that it could only be done if Pakistan vacated *** completely, to allow for a fair referendum. Pakistan denied, and lost its chance, don't blame us now.
 
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locals reported it to the media; it sure as hell wasnt indian media

why do you think foreign press is BANNED from reporting there

you dotheads believe your own lies



:coffee:

Say what you want but he was able to put the news out.. Also the human rights India played its part in uncovering these graves... We will deal with them... Obviously many in those graves are crack heads which had been given the promise of 72 hoors...

India did not do all those without any reason, if Pakistan would not have had those ****** training camps right from 1989 all this would not have happened... So, it will not be wrong to say that the root cause for the mass graves is Pakistan. It's a shame

It's a vicious cycle, Fateh

Kashmiri journalists have been deprived of presenting true political picture of events in indian occupied Kashmir. It is one of the most unreported regions of the global world. Number of your forces present in the Kashmir region is more than half a million. AFSPA erodes media freedom and rights of journalists. Your forces (sissies) hush up the damaging details of events from the community of journalists. Hell -- why do you think even SMS service is banned there?

It was 11 June 2010 when your security forces (sissies) killed a youth in Sri Nagar. The schoolboy was returning home from tuitions. Incidents like these -- or raping and dumping of Kashmiri teenage girls or the killing and dumping of men in fake encounters is what causes these vicious cycles. Naturally people will resist.


as for Riyaz Masroor -- this BBC reporter -- we know what happened to him already. Many others been through the same treatment.




Curfew enforce strictly on call for Hazratbal Chalo, Police beat up journalist « Agence India Press


:coffee:

They have been deprived cause the events are influenced by Pakistani insurgents and terrorists..
 
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