How do people view Islamic organizations in Pakistan from the outside

[Bratva]

The Salafist view is easy. Sufi view is difficult. But having been around a while, I can clearly tell you that Salafist approach to religion, while being direct, is actually shallow. The spiritual depth and understanding of deeper aspects of religion is a rarity among Salafis. In my experience most of Salafis have very little development in Tazkia-e-Nafs. Their manners are good in agreement, not in disagreement. I do not wish to castigate Salafists because there are some good things about them too especially sincerity and earnestness, like yours.

Some people with shallow or nonexistent understanding claim to be Sufi. Usually they are Barelvi types who know little and just go along the flow without questioning the aspects of innovation (bid'aat) and lack of emphasis on Tawheed. It is easy to criticize them for this. And indeed a Salafi person can easily pull the rug from under their feet. However, someone who has an understanding of sources (Quran and Sunnah) and exposure to different schools of thought would be a different game altogether. I am not going to say more than this. But do know that your certitude is a bit misplaced. There are certain questions which you or any Salfist with knowledge can not answer. Salafism paints an incomplete picture and the shortcomings of approach are clearly visible in adherents of this school of thought.

My development is actually quite reverse of yours. I used to think of Sufism / Tassawwuf as something close to shirk. I know that is not so.

Have your tried to read Kashf-al-Mahjoob? It is difficult reading, but perhaps one of the best sources on Sufism.



Nope, I am definitely NOT a secularist. I believe in tolerance, in respecting difference of opinion and in not inciting people of other religions. I have nothing to do with the theoretical aspects and ramifications of secularism. My context is Islamic from A to Z. I can explain my position from Quran and Sunnah. Those are my references.

Bamu Sahab, Sufi way is Jihad bil nafs. It's not an easy thing to do.

To remain steadfast in your Ibadat's is as difficult as arguing with Zarvan becomes. You feel irritation, After a week or so, praying 5 times a day would become monotonous and one feel boredom and his early enjoyment in Ibaadah began to fade. He will consider he is doing same thing again and again without achieving something. Greedy nature of Human being.

This is where Jihad bil Nafs come, to have firm Yaqeen in your Ibadah and overcoming resistance of your Nafs. Dedicating entire time to correct oneself. Resisting negativity, depression that Your Ibaadaah are not decreasing your troubles . Focussing on oneself is how society would pay less attention to others and violence and subjugation would decrease than.

 

[Hyperion]

Whatever dude. Who cares? They are all retarded. The whole bunch!

Hafiz saeed and lashkar e taiba/JUD are salafis/wahabis/ahle-hadith

 

[VCheng]

Bold part. Vague generalizations doesn't work . It's been 10 or so years since Al Huda began their operation. Can you describe an instance where Al Huda teachings has caused an intolerance as it's been a decade which is enough to gauge the performance of something.

What are teachings of Al Huda that you equate it with being radical? Have ou been there, attended their courses, observed their instructors?

If your comments has to be taken at face value than teaching islam to young kids are also radicalising the society

Let us try some specifics then.

Do you think that a graduate of al-Huda would see the killing of Salman Taseer as justified or not? How about as a percentage of the graduates?

 

[Bratva]

Let us try some specifics then.

Do you think that a graduate of al-Huda would see the killing of Salman Taseer as justified or not? How about as a percentage of the graduates?

There is another better way. contact Al Huda administration and put this question in front of them. Then specifically put this question at X number of Al Huda students to gauge their views. After that, you can claim your views are based on such and such surveys I conducted which legitimizes your concerns.

Instead what you are doing is opposite.You are trying to interpret our society without being actually on ground. How's that make your concerns valid ?

 

[VCheng]

You are wrong here. In difficult times people turn to religion. This then becomes and chicken-and-egg debate. You are reducing a tonne of complexities to something which you have yet to enunciate.

I fail to understand how you can point to organizations like Al-Huda and cry about radicalization while plenty of other organizations religious and irreligious are busy doing similar stuff with different focus or outcome? For one Al-Huda, there are a dozen not-so-Huda organizations working in our society. Why make a fuss at all?

The problem is with a reactionary mind-set which is a victim of obfuscation from various sources (including likes of you). Pakistanis are cynics in general and display a great deal of negativity and suspicion - the logical outcome of a reactionary mind-set. You are displaying a great deal of cynicism, suspicion, and negativity like any contemporary Pakistani. This is abnormal behavior on national scale.

The day things improve a bit, we can begin to slowly come out of this mind-set.

First of all, thank you for accepting me as a contemporary Pakistani, albeit in a backhanded sort of way.

You are correct that there are many charitable organizations that provide many social services that are otherwise not available. But organizations like al-Huda have the primary goal of renewal of faith according to a very set agenda. One of the tenets is that there must be no disagreement about religion and conformity is to be encouraged. This inevitably leads to a lack of diversity of opinions. What follows is the rise of intolerance, as we can clearly see.

If you think I am wrong, then please apply my line of reasoning to what is happening in Pakistan today and tell me how it fails to explain any of it. Perhaps then I can see how you can offer any better explanation in lieu.

There is another better way. contact Al Huda administration and put this question in front of them. Then specifically put this question at X number of Al Huda students to gauge their views. After that, you can claim your views are based on such and such surveys I conducted which legitimizes your concerns.

I would be more interested in what your views are.

 

[Bratva]

What do you think , mate? What exactly is the TTP franchise? Who are these people waging war against the state of Pakistan? The Indian/American/British/Israeli agents as the popular opinion goes? Or the Uzbeks , Tajiks , Arabs , Chechens e.t.c exclusively as is the convenient excuse being given now? Before you answer , I need you to understand a few things . A strange and sustainable ecosystem for extremism and subsequent terrorism does exist in this country supported by misplaced priorities in donations , zakat , funds from the Gulf countries and last but not least , the money generated through criminal activities by TTP , for that I have no doubt . I mean , we have had the infrastructure for Jihadi groups since a long time , in the form of Madarsas taking in poor or orphan children and raising them up , since the rural conservative population despite having no money to raise what they bring in this world , strongly believes in no latex . Is it then possible that the fighters trained and people indoctrinated during the Afghan war have gone haywire and are now fighting against infidel Pakistanis just like they were fighting against the infidel Soviets? I am not asking you to believe it , I am just asking to consider the possibility because the foreign third hand theory cant explain a lot of things , there's a good report written by @jaibi examining the money generation procedures of these extremist groups , I suggest you take a look at it .

But how is it related to Al Huda? which is a 10 year old organization and a zero record of production radical or extremist lady ?

 

[Secur]

But how is it related to Al Huda? which is a 10 year old organization and a zero record of production radical or extremist lady ?

It isn't , I was replying to another query .

 

[Chak Bamu]

First of all, thank you for accepting me as a contemporary Pakistani, albeit in a backhanded sort of way.

You are correct that there are many charitable organizations that provide many social services that are otherwise not available. But organizations like al-Huda have the primary goal of renewal of faith according to a very set agenda. One of the tenets is that there must be no disagreement about religion and conformity is to be encouraged. This inevitably leads to a lack of diversity of opinions. What follows is the rise of intolerance, as we can clearly see.

If you think I am wrong, then please apply my line of reasoning to what is happening in Pakistan today and tell me how it fails to explain any of it. Perhaps then I can see how you can offer any better explanation in lieu.

So you are saying that a sectarian organization is going to act like a sectarian organization. Big deal. What is new in that? Every body knows that sectarianism is a bane of society, especially ours.

The problem is in claiming exclusive monopoly on truth, much like your claims on this thread. It bothers a few of us to see you practice exactly what you are warning us about. Ironic.

 

[VCheng]

Here is a good academic article on this thread's topic if anyone is interested:

The full article is here and worth a read:

http://www.apcss.org/Publications/E...igiousRadicalismandSecurityinSouthAsiach2.pdf

Conclusion

Our observations point to the complex origins and patterns of growth of Islamic organizations in Pakistan. We have discussed the way Islamic ideology functioned as the supreme source of legitimacy for the state, and defined the parameters of the political context that eventually laid down the turf for politics of identity. The Islamic movement changed its character from a pressure group for establishing the rule of shari’a in the first quarter of a century after independence, to an electoral and then a militant force in the second quarter. The regional input in the form of the war in Afghanistan combined with Zia’s vehement pursuit of the Islamization program in the 1980s to produce a dynamic pan-Islamic agenda and a vast Islamic network at home and abroad based on sectarian parties and madrassas.

The army-dominated state apparatus in Pakistan has militated against providing social, cultural, economic and political space to the civil society in general and public representatives in particular. On the other hand, Islamic parties and groups enjoyed a relatively free hand to operate in the educational, cultural and, increasingly, political fields. Even more significantly, the state elite sought to provide a role for Islamist groups against various political forces identified with the Left, ethnolinguistic communities, provincial autonomy activists and the liberal intelligentsia. The involvement of Islamic militants in the wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir contributed to privatization of foreign policy and militarization of Islamic activists. The international Islamic networks finally provided a global agenda for the movement in terms of endemic anti-Americanism. The unresolved conflicts around the world involving Muslim communities, especially in Palestine, sharpened the boundaries of the conflict. We can conclude by observing that state policies, regional instability and non-resolution of conflicts involving Muslims in the region and in the world at large are the leading determinants of the nature and direction of Islamic organizations in Pakistan.

So you are saying that a sectarian organization is going to act like a sectarian organization. Big deal. What is new in that? Every body knows that sectarianism is a bane of society, especially ours.

The problem is in claiming exclusive monopoly on truth, much like your claims on this thread. It bothers a few of us to see you practice exactly what you are warning us about. Ironic.

What I am pointing out is that intolerance and sectarianism are now established in the mainstream contrary to what many claim. That is the way Pakistani society wants to go. This fact should now be recognized.

 

[Bratva]

First of all, thank you for accepting me as a contemporary Pakistani, albeit in a backhanded sort of way.

You are correct that there are many charitable organizations that provide many social services that are otherwise not available. But organizations like al-Huda have the primary goal of renewal of faith according to a very set agenda. One of the tenets is that there must be no disagreement about religion and conformity is to be encouraged. This inevitably leads to a lack of diversity of opinions. What follows is the rise of intolerance, as we can clearly see.

If you think I am wrong, then please apply my line of reasoning to what is happening in Pakistan today and tell me how it fails to explain any of it. Perhaps then I can see how you can offer any better explanation in lieu.



I would be more interested in what your views are.

My Views? Salman taseer killer should be killed or pardoned as per Salman taseer family wishes. It's a simple issue of Qisaas. He killed him without any evidences.

My views on Blasphemy law are, Since it is not discussed in Quran. There is no clear cut Hadeeth in Islam about Blasphemy laws, but are incidents when Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) migrated to Madina. Based upon my understanding and conduct of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in Makkah and Madina , I want blasphemy laws to be like this.


Put suspect in front of Judge. If there are no evidences and just hearsay from people. Make him swear on his holy book that he is not lying then declare It's a matter b/w Allah and this man, He would deal with him.

1. If man admits he did it by mistake or unintentional , He should be forgiven for his first mistake, as a person is mannequin of mistakes and based on the conduct of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in Makkah where he used to forgive people who throw garbage on Him (PBUH) or Those who put camel tripe on his back when he used to pray

If a man Denies and there are clear cut evidences of his transgression, We should do a Ijma and make a law which should infer limits from Zina law for carrying out punishment , like 4 pious muslims who saw it with their own eyes are required for to carry out punishment. Similar limits should be put on such law to carry out the punishment . He should be heavily fined or to be put in to Jail for a specified term. Or if the accusers can not bring forth proper evidences they should be meted out with the same sentence that of accused.

If the person does it intentionally, Then step 2 punishment should be meted out to him

2. If same person repeats same thing once again or If he admits in first time he did it intentionally or if there was a clear cut evidence and he denied (lied) in first or second instance, He should be put in to jail for no less than 15-25 years and heavily fined based upon weather he admit it or denied it or did it unintentionally.Example is of the poet who was exiled from Madina by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)


3. In last case if a person does it for the third time ( or second time ), He should be killed.

 

[Zarvan]

The Salafist view is easy. Sufi view is difficult. But having been around a while, I can clearly tell you that Salafist approach to religion, while being direct, is actually shallow. The spiritual depth and understanding of deeper aspects of religion is a rarity among Salafis. In my experience most of Salafis have very little development in Tazkia-e-Nafs. Their manners are good in agreement, not in disagreement. I do not wish to castigate Salafists because there are some good things about them too especially sincerity and earnestness, like yours.

Some people with shallow or nonexistent understanding claim to be Sufi. Usually they are Barelvi types who know little and just go along the flow without questioning the aspects of innovation (bid'aat) and lack of emphasis on Tawheed. It is easy to criticize them for this. And indeed a Salafi person can easily pull the rug from under their feet. However, someone who has an understanding of sources (Quran and Sunnah) and exposure to different schools of thought would be a different game altogether. I am not going to say more than this. But do know that your certitude is a bit misplaced. There are certain questions which you or any Salfist with knowledge can not answer. Salafism paints an incomplete picture and the shortcomings of approach are clearly visible in adherents of this school of thought.

My development is actually quite reverse of yours. I used to think of Sufism / Tassawwuf as something close to shirk. I know that is not so.

Have your tried to read Kashf-al-Mahjoob? It is difficult reading, but perhaps one of the best sources on Sufism.



Nope, I am definitely NOT a secularist. I believe in tolerance, in respecting difference of opinion and in not inciting people of other religions. I have nothing to do with the theoretical aspects and ramifications of secularism. My col Mntext is Islamic from A to Z. I can explain my position from Quran and Sunnah. Those are my references.

Kashful Majood and Ganya tu tTalibeen of Sheikh Abdul Qadir are must read to know real sufism and if you read the books without knowing the author you may think that may be its written by some Salafi no Sir I don't think Salafis point portray and incomplete picture when thing is based and confirmed by Quran and Sunnah is confirmed and only right thing to do

My Views? Salman taseer killer should be killed or pardoned as per Salman taseer family wishes. It's a simple issue of Qisaas. He killed him without any evidences.

My views on Blasphemy law are, Since it is not discussed in Quran. There is no clear cut Hadeeth in Islam about Blasphemy laws, what are incidents when Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) migrated to Madina. Based upon my understanding and conduct of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in Makkah and Madina , I want blasphemy laws to be like this.


Put Accuse in front of Judge. If there are no evidences and just hearsay from people. Make him swear on his holy book that he is not lying than declare It's now matter b/w Allah and this man, He will deal with him.

1. If man admits he did it by mistake or unintentional , He should be forgiven for his first mistake, as a person is mannequin of mistakes and based on the conduct of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in Makkah where he used to forgive people who throw garbage on Him (PBUH) or Those who put camel tripe on his back when he used to pray

If a man Denies and there are clear cut evidences of his transgression, We should do a Ijma and make a law which should be similar to Zina, where 4 pious muslims who saw it with their own eyes are required for to carry out punishment. Similar Hads can be issued for blasphemy. He should be heavily fined or to be put in to Jail for a specified term. Or if the accusers can not bring forth proper evidences they should be meted out with the same sentence that of accused

If the person does it intentionally, Then step 2 punishment should be meted out to him

2. If same person repeats same thing once again or If he admits if he did it on person , He should be put in to jail for no less than 15-20 years and heavily fined.


3. In last case if that person does it for the third time, He should be killed.

O sir J for GOD sake around 8 to 10 people were killed on orders of RASOOL SAW for Blasphemy in his life all cases were in Madinah

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Whatever dude. Who cares? They are all retarded. The whole bunch!

Hafiz saeed and his bunch, the retards according to you , are supported by your ISI. Majority of the pakistani members here are fans of hafiz saeed.

 

[Bratva]

Kashful Majood and Ganya tu tTalibeen of Sheikh Abdul Qadir are must read to know real sufism and if you read the books without knowing the author you may think that may be its written by some Salafi no Sir I don't think Salafis point portray and incomplete picture when thing is based and confirmed by Quran and Sunnah is confirmed and only right thing to do


O sir J for GOD sake around 8 to 10 people were killed on orders of RASOOL SAW for Blasphemy in his life all cases were in Madinah

There were NO ORDERS. WHAT PEOPLE DID, they acted alone and Prophet (PBUH) neither condoned them nor agreed with them. He remained silent.

Poet who was exiled from Madina and came back in Hazrat Usman (R.A) era , is another example of how Blasphemy law should be flexible and justify my point 2 that People should not be killed on first instance

Here is a good academic article on this thread's topic if anyone is interested:

The full article is here and worth a read:

http://www.apcss.org/Publications/Edited Volumes/ReligiousRadicalism/PagesfromReligiousRadicalismandSecurityinSouthAsiach2.pdf

Conclusion

Our observations point to the complex origins and patterns of growth of Islamic organizations in Pakistan. We have discussed the way Islamic ideology functioned as the supreme source of legitimacy for the state, and defined the parameters of the political context that eventually laid down the turf for politics of identity. The Islamic movement changed its character from a pressure group for establishing the rule of shari’a in the first quarter of a century after independence, to an electoral and then a militant force in the second quarter. The regional input in the form of the war in Afghanistan combined with Zia’s vehement pursuit of the Islamization program in the 1980s to produce a dynamic pan-Islamic agenda and a vast Islamic network at home and abroad based on sectarian parties and madrassas.

The army-dominated state apparatus in Pakistan has militated against providing social, cultural, economic and political space to the civil society in general and public representatives in particular. On the other hand, Islamic parties and groups enjoyed a relatively free hand to operate in the educational, cultural and, increasingly, political fields. Even more significantly, the state elite sought to provide a role for Islamist groups against various political forces identified with the Left, ethnolinguistic communities, provincial autonomy activists and the liberal intelligentsia. The involvement of Islamic militants in the wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir contributed to privatization of foreign policy and militarization of Islamic activists. The international Islamic networks finally provided a global agenda for the movement in terms of endemic anti-Americanism. The unresolved conflicts around the world involving Muslim communities, especially in Palestine, sharpened the boundaries of the conflict. We can conclude by observing that state policies, regional instability and non-resolution of conflicts involving Muslims in the region and in the world at large are the leading determinants of the nature and direction of Islamic organizations in Pakistan.



What I am pointing out is that intolerance and sectarianism are now established in the mainstream contrary to what many claim. That is the way Pakistani society wants to go. This fact should now be recognized.

You are not sticking to one point. The thread is about a specific entity in Pakistan Al Huda which you accused spreading radicalism and fanaticism without backing it up with instances of weather Al Huda in it's 10 year run ever produced one single radical person who caused Harm to society in any way.

Now you bring about the general society behaviour which has nothing to do with Al Huda Vs Society radicalization debate.

 

[VCheng]

You are not sticking to one point. The thread is about a specific entity in Pakistan Al Huda which you accused spreading radicalism and fanaticism without backing it up with instances of weather Al Huda in it's 10 year run ever produced one single radical person who caused Harm to society in any way.
Now you bring about the general society behaviour which has nothing to do with Al Huda Vs Society radicalization debate.

No Sir, the thread is about Islamic Organizations, of which I quoted al-Huda as an example.

 

[Hyperion]

Who are you dude? Never seen you before on this forum!!

@Aeronaut, lala, who's this guy?

Hafiz saeed and his bunch, the retards according to you , are supported by your ISI. Majority of the pakistani members here are fans of hafiz saeed.