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How Dalit, Shudra and Muslim unity can beat twice born Hindu oppressors in India

The violence is not the worst in many generations, Sunnis and Shias have wiped out much more of each other in medieval times the thousands today is few in number ironically it is just considered more brutal today because Europeans have gotten sick of war after they went through their sectarian battles, Muslims are still going through that phase.

I'm aware of the history, I'm referring to more recent times. Level of violence should not be compared with the past, it should be seen as period specific. Number of deaths are not the only statistic to be seen, the divisions that are openly displayed is now more acute. (Not trying to score points here, merely stating what I see)
 
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Twice born is referred to those who undergo the upanayana ceremony (sacred thread wearing where they are deemed to be born again) which originally happened in all the 3 castes mentioned.

Shudras are not dalits, dalits is used as reference to those outside the caste system.

Gandhi gave the term "harijans" for untouchables who were outside the caste system. Nobody uses it now a days.
 
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So did they become shudras upon reversion? :laugh:



Depends what you mean by purist, if you mean Sunni then yeah if you mean Wahabbi then nah.

Whatever they became, they are safe now. They have got legal protection against social discrimination and economic goodies sweetens the deal.

Purists are those whose clock has perpetually been stuck in their glorious medieval period.
 
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I'm aware of the history, I'm referring to more recent times. Level of violence cannot be compared with the past, it is time specific. Number of deaths are not the only statistic to be seen, the divisions that are openly displayed is now more acute. (Not trying to score points here, merely stating what I see)

I am telling you if you are gonna say that the division is more acute today than that would be untrue, historically the division was most profound with the rise of the Safavid-Ottoman rivalry where millions were effected. Today the divide is only pushed by oil states of Qatar, KSA, and Iran who fund minorities sects with arms to fight. Namely the wahabbis/ salafists on one side and the hardcore twelvers on the other These sects are few in numbers (as most Sunnis are not wahabbis/ salafists and most shias especially Iranians are not as religious so they do not care for such things like their government does) but they can exert large amount of fire power which can tear the countries they fight in apart.

Whatever they became, they are safe now. They have got legal protection against social discrimination and economic goodies sweetens the deal.

Purists are those whose clock has perpetually been stuck in their glorious medieval period.

I doubt that considering dalits still speak about discrimination. Most Indian Muslims do not care for such things they are trying to live their lives.
 
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Prospects of Dalit-Muslim alliance, The Milli Gazette, Vol.5 No.18, MG112(16-30 Sep 04)

Prospects of Dalit-Muslim alliance
By Syed Shahabuddin

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Dalits have the sorrow of centuries etched into their faces. On the whole, despite 50 years of reservation in legislatures, public employment and education, often drummed up as reparation and compensation for centuries of treatment as a sub-human species, they still constitute the most backward section of the Indian people, socially, educationally and economically. They are nearly 25% in population but constitute 50-60% of the BPL (Below the Poverty Line) population; they have less than 10% share in public employment, perhaps less in private employment; they have a higher proportion in starvation deaths, in epidemic toll, illiteracy, in school drop-out. Generally they live in their own rural and urban ghettos, engage in their traditional professions, they are mostly marginal farmers and landless labour and are often denied tenancy rights and even minimum wages by the owners, by use of force.

Muslims are nearly as backward as the SC/ST's but they are also the target of Hindu chauvinist and fundamentalist forces. In their eyes, the Muslims are not only responsible for the division of the country and the creation of Pakistan but the real obstacle in the Hinduisation of India i.e. transformation of the secular state into a Hindu state. The strategy of Hindu Nationalism is Hindu consolidation i.e. formation of a political alliance of the Hindu high castes and the Shudras under the time-tested leadership of the Brahmins. However, by virtue of numbers, in a democratic system the SC and ST command political importance and there is a continuous tussle among political parties for their support.

Muslims are nearly as backward as the SC/ST's but they are also the target of Hindu chauvinist and fundamentalist forces. In their eyes, the Muslims are not only responsible for the division of the country and the creation of Pakistan but the real obstacle in the Hinduisation of India i.e. transformation of the secular state into a Hindu state. The strategy of Hindu Nationalism is Hindu consolidation i.e. formation of a political alliance of the Hindu high castes and the Shudras under the time-tested leadership of the Brahmins. Though the Achhuts and the Adivasis were for centuries treated as outside the pale of the Dharma, they are sought to be brought in because of the numerical power they possess. Political association, religious absorption or even educational and economic benefits do not mean social equality. So while 'pollution' which cannot be a factor in a modern urban setting, marriage of the Savarnas with the Panchmas and the Adivasis is still rare. However, Hindu Nationalists have succeeded, through welfare and educational attention, through ideological brainwashing and finally through economic support, in engaging their services as their foot soldiers. More often than not, in anti-Muslim riots, the Dalits are incited, armed and organized to attack Muslims.

Ambedkar has been pirated by Hindu Nationalists and included in its pantheon of Hindu heroes. While his writings and statements attacking Hinduism are ignored, his comments against Muslims are used to brainwash the Dalits. In many tribal areas, the penetration of Hindu upper castes and exploitation of Dalit labourers by them is ignored, while the tribal ire is directed against much fewer Muslim settlers, cultivators and shopkeepers. Polygamous marriages by Muslims with tribal women is represented as sexual exploitation and used to incite the tribal population.

There is no doubt that in urban areas, the few Dalits who live in Muslims areas enjoy peace and security. Yet there is no socialization between the two groups. In fact the Muslim society in general, which includes a large proportion of descendants of Panchma converts, particularly the well-placed Baradaris, look upon the SC's with contempt. This became evident during 1980 General Election when many Muslims who were against Indira Gandhi had reservation about her Janata Party rival Jagjivan Ram, only because he happened to be 'chamar' by caste!

Objectively speaking, there has always been a good case for Dalit-Muslim Alliance in terms of common suffering, common deprivation and common aspirations to secure equality and justice, except for brief spells on isolated occasions, no real alliance has ever crystallized. Sometimes, the Muslim leadership, often consisting of the so-called Ashraf, does not know which section of the Dalits to address, which common or separate grievances should go into the common agenda, and how to mobilize the two communities for the common cause of political empowerment, economic and social justice. Sometimes the Dalit leadership does not know which section of the Muslim religious leadership to approach or trust. Under the surface, there are misgivings and no common leadership has emerged.

With land reform and green revolution the Shudras have achieved an economic breakthrough. They constitute about 50% of the population. Some sections have made visible progress in education and found a veritable presence in professions. They are conscious of the discrimination and indignity they have suffered but their role model is the Kshtriya; they want to be accepted as equal members of the Chaturvarna; they are on the path of Sanskritisation. They are denied the sacred thread but they vie with the Savarnas in performance of rites and rituals, through Brahmin priests. After all, they do not challenge the religious supremacy of the Brahmins. In the long run, they want accommodation within the Brahminical system. Economically, also they find themselves competing with the Muslim intelligentsia for government jobs and in profession and their prosperity largely depends on the exploitation of the Dalit labour.

The up and coming brand Shudras have formed their parties, the Samajwadi Party/Rashtriya Janata Dal, representing the Yadavs, the Apna Dal and the JD(U) representing the Kurmis, the Rashtriya Lok Dal, representing the Jats and similar Shudra outfits, north of the Vindhya. Even south of the Vindhyas, there are parties which essentially represent the interests of some Shudra groups but they have a long history of revolt against Brahminism. Electorally, all these parties are anxious, like the Congress or the BJP, to secure the support of the Muslims and to snatch the so-called Muslim vote bank. The BJP has done its best to divide the Muslims and keep them from extending united support either to Congress or to its rivals and even tried to play the Muslim Card, but with little success.

Dalit and Muslims constitute the poorest and the most deprived sections of the Indian people. Their understanding is the first step towards establishment of a regime of social justice in India. The other religious minorities do not come in their category. The Sikhs and the Christians are largely happy with what they have, the Jains and the Parsis have the bedrock of affluence to lie on. Together the Dalits and the Muslims constitute 40% of the total population. Electorally together they could sweep a majority of seats in the Assemblies and in the Lok Sabha in the whole country. But first the miasma of misunderstanding and distrust needs to be dissipated. The Muslims must shed any contempt for the Dalits; the Muslims, as the relatively stronger section, should share their meagre resources with the Dalits, e.g. provide educational facilities for Dalit students in their institutions; Muslim cultivators and landowners should treat Dalit landless labour and share-croppers equitably and at least in accordance with the law; Muslim shop keepers should not double as moneylenders and economically exploit the Dalits; Muslims should abjure any organized effort to convert the Dalits to Islam; under any circumstances, even in retaliation, Muslims should not raise their hands against the Dalits living in their areas or attack Dalit clusters; Muslims should treat them with equality and respect in their tea stalls and catteries; Muslims should invite Dalit neighbours living in their tolas and mahallas on social occasions and break bread with them and accept their hospitality.

Above all, Muslim politicians should not look upon Dalits as their political fodder and vice versa. They should both support each other's legitimate interests and work out a system of mutual and reciprocal support, right from the Panchayat level to the Assembly and Lok Sabha. For example, the Muslim voters in reserved constituencies should support the Dalit candidates who command the affection of the Dalit masses, not those who are really banking on the support of the non-Dalit Hindus and of the high castes, as the candidates of big political parties generally do. Muslim and Dalit leadership should always extend support to the struggle of each other for security, equality and dignity, in accordance with the Constitution.

On the other hand, the Dalit leadership should not look upon Muslims merely as an ally in their struggle against the Brahminical order, but as a partner in the great, national task of reconstruction of the Indian Society on the basis of Democracy, Secularism and Social Justice. The Dalit leadership should take an unequivocal and consistent approach towards the forces of Hindu Revivalism and Chauvinism and of Hindu Nationalism - never shake hands with Hindutva parties, like the BJP or AIADMK or Shiv Sena. The Dalit leadership should counteract the pernicious influence of the Sangh Parivar among the tribals and ensure that the Dalits are not used as foot soldiers in a war against Muslims or Christians. The Dalit leadership, particularly among the Adivasis, should educate the masses to ensure that religion is correctly registered in the Census and they are not labelled as Hindus. They should stand squarely for suitable amendment to the Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order, which detracts from the freedom of religion of the SC's, by repealing the criteria of profession of Hinduism.

The formulation of a National Strategy for Dalit-Muslim Unity demands both sincere effort at the grassroot level and political collaboration at the national and state levels. Political understanding and cooperation will emerge only through intellectual interaction at Workshops, Seminars, Symposiums, and Conferences. Dalit-Muslim Alliance will be born out of a nation-wide campaign by a joint leadership which will emerge, if the Muslim and Dalit MP's and MLA's of all parties and leaders of Muslim and Dalit social and cultural organizations come closer to each other and form a consensus not only on matters and developments of concern to them but on all national issues which in the final analysis affect all citizens and also retard or accelerate our movement, as a nation, towards the goals of Social Justice.

Why are you so concerned about India?
What about your nation?
You dont know anything about reservation and other benefits to our poor people .So just STFU.
 
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trying hard to derail the topic ? upper caste Hindus are oppressors of Dalits ad Dravidians - the caste system is embedded in the Hindu scriptures which also celebrates the conquest and subjugation of native Dravidians by Aryan supremacists
Try being high caste Hindu in India and you'll know who is oppressed. LOL you won't even get admission in premium colleges neither job in PSUs. Whereas SC ST OBC requires 50 percent marks and voila you're in. If this is what oppression is I'd like to live in such oppression :coffee:
 
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Someone is working very hard to prove...what ?

The article at post No 1 is of 2004 !!
 
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trying hard to derail the topic ? upper caste Hindus are oppressors of Dalits ad Dravidians - the caste system is embedded in the Hindu scriptures which also celebrates the conquest and subjugation of native Dravidians by Aryan supremacists
dravidans are oppressed by Hindus?? whats that??
its a language family which consists of south Indian languages like Tamil,telegu,Kannada,Malayalam and tulu etc..it has nothing to do with what you blabbering about..this aryan dravidan theory was coined by British for their divide and rule policy..today no one gives any shit about it..
 
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Prospects of Dalit-Muslim alliance, The Milli Gazette, Vol.5 No.18, MG112(16-30 Sep 04)
The formulation of a National Strategy for Dalit-Muslim Unity demands both sincere effort at the grassroot level and political collaboration at the national and state levels. Political understanding and cooperation will emerge only through intellectual interaction at Workshops, Seminars, Symposiums, and Conferences. Dalit-Muslim Alliance will be born out of a nation-wide campaign by a joint leadership which will emerge, if the Muslim and Dalit MP's and MLA's of all parties and leaders of Muslim and Dalit social and cultural organizations come closer to each other and form a consensus not only on matters and developments of concern to them but on all national issues which in the final analysis affect all citizens and also retard or accelerate our movement, as a nation, towards the goals of Social Justice.

What is Dalit, Shudra?
Is it a new religion?
Is it new fetish with educated people?

What I know that we in India are Indians first after that we are poor or rich Indians and then we are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christians, Buddhist etc..... Shudra/ Dalit is something we don't know/ don't want to know/ don't care.

I really hate people who talk big but do nothing to make changes. I'm not sure how shouting DALIT.... DALIT ....DALIT will unite not divide people
 
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dravidans are oppressed by Hindus?? whats that??
its a language family which consists of south Indian languages like Tamil,telegu,Kannada,Malayalam and tulu etc..it has nothing to do with what you blabbering about..this aryan dravidan theory was coined by British for their divide and rule policy..today no one gives any shit about it..

That Sri Lankan Tamilian is beyond repair. Leave him to his own machinations.:)
 
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Me, having born in a low caste OBC family, is obliged to show my middle finger to the crappy article.

Not to mention that in a given caste, there are sub castes and oppression that goes along with it.

It is indeed funny when 'outsiders' comment on the caste system and you know they have no idea what they are talking about.

Caste system is indeed an obsolete form of social structuring.

But what happens when Dalits discriminate based on their sub castes?

There isn't a thing as the 'truly' oppressed in Indian society. Even among Dalits, Women are given few rights.

Even among Indian women, they will be loathe to give Homosexuals same rights as them.

This is pretty common around here. If you are a Muslim, you bellow about Muslim oppression. If you are a Hindu likewise.

This forum demonstrates one thing Human beings are good at. Magnifying their sense of victimhood, and ignoring others.

I see it with the Pakistanis, see it with the Indians and every nationality imaginable.

That Sri Lankan Tamilian is beyond repair. Leave him to his own machinations.:)

Fellow when a malayalee doesn't feel the same opression that tends to blow a hole in his victimhood claims.
 
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Fellow when a malayalee doesn't feel the same opression that tends to blow a hole in his victimhood claims.

I can understand a Dalit's claim of enduring oppression, but can never understand why some folks choose to cry hoarse over some perceived Hindi/North Indian domination over Dravidians. When was the last time any Dravidian was prevented from following his culture or speaking his language in South India? Ridiculous claims!
 
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LOL In present India lower caste Hindus have better opportunities than Hingher castes...
BTW why Bengali Muslims trying hard for all this Shit...This is never gonna happen dear because they know you guys suck more now than higher castes 1000 years ago.
I am agree that in past many bad things happen with lower castes but it's not truth in today's world. I think you Shai-Sunni thing is more worse than our in today world.
 
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