How can Imran Come out of His Present Imbroglio

[PakAlp]

No disagreement on that.
However, I have a more cautious approach: Once you remove 'The Establishment' from Pakistan, then it is utter chaos and destruction unless and until there is viable alternative. And, no, Imran was not an alternative--far from that.

We cannot deny that the army, establishment is keeping Pakistan together. If they become weak or are finished, then Pakistan will descent in to civil war. We have the nationalist who want Sindh, Kashmir, KPK, Balochistan separate, they're movement will grow quickly if they find a vacuum.

Still I would say the blame goes to the policy makers, the elite/establishment. What stops them from giving justice to the people, making independent Institutes, reforms in to the police, judiciary, free and fair elections, promote education, rule of law etc. You cannot hold a nation together by ruling with the law of jungle. Once justice is given in Pakistan then the nationalist will want to be part of Pakistan, or they should just declare martial law and get it over and done with.

 

[CIA Mole]

he can do everything at once

 

[Zee-shaun]

Once all possibilities for his return are exploited he should quietly move to London without a deal and handover the party to Qureshi for a while. Once here, he should start political and anti establishment/mafia activism lobbying with EU, US and the rest of the world. Use his good name and reputation to reach out to allies and further expose the mafia in Pakistan and abroad. He is more useful by becoming a foreign agent than rot in jail or isolation in Pakistan.

 

[M. Sarmad]

No disagreement on that.
However, I have a more cautious approach: Once you remove 'The Establishment' from Pakistan, then it is utter chaos and destruction unless and until there is viable alternative. And, no, Imran was not an alternative--far from that.

And a viable alternative cannot emerge unless the pervasive influence of the all-powerful establishment in undermining civilian institutions is constrained. The crux of the issue resides in the establishment and its unconstitutional engagement in politics, rendering it incapable of providing a solution.

IK was never intended to be an alternative to the establishment. The true alternative lies in prioritizing civilian supremacy and bolstering civilian institutions. Imran Khan merely symbolizes and represents that cause in the present context.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1666865946722459650

 

[M. Sarmad]

We cannot deny that the army, establishment is keeping Pakistan together. If they become weak or are finished, then Pakistan will descent in to civil war. We have the nationalist who want Sindh, Kashmir, KPK, Balochistan separate, they're movement will grow quickly if they find a vacuum.

Sir, I don't think you fully grasp the gravity and seriousness of the situation we are facing. Those nationalist groups and their once-marginalized slogans and sentiments are gaining ground and becoming mainstream. The Army can only effectively maintain the unity of our country if it has the complete trust and overwhelming support of the majority of our people in each of the federation units. Regrettably, the support for the Army is rapidly eroding, even among the educated urban middle class and in settled areas, primarily due to the oppressive tactics being employed by the Army against ordinary citizens and the violation of their rights and dignity. This shift will have significant and lasting consequences. Eventually, there will come a point where the Army will no longer be able to maintain control through force.

 

[Meengla]

The true alternative lies in prioritizing civilian supremacy and bolstering civilian institutions. Imran Khan merely symbolizes and represents that cause in the present context.

This is what you guys get it wrong.
Imran wanted power by appointing the next COAS and ISI Chief. The discord between Imran and the Establishment started after the Fall of Kabul in August 2021 over the appointments. There were rumors about the rift to the extent that Fawad Ch. and others had to deny them. Imran was advised by many to not follow that course and Pervez Elahi is on record to have said that he tried to stop Imran from interfering in military matters.

It was all power play, friends. Imran sought power through the military officials. Sugar coating this as some grand strategy of 'Civilian Supremacy' is disingenuous or naivete. Look at Irshad Bhatti saying: He says Imran was after prolonged power in Pakistan--it was all about 'Iqtedaar' and Irshad was one of those journalists who stayed with Imran until now. He was even called Irshad 'Tatti' by the Noonies for his loyalty to Imran after April 2022.

And Imran is not the first one to try to use the military for his goals. Nawaz Sharif also tried that in 1999 by appointing his choice as the COAS and sacking Musharraf.

Having said that, yes, it is the right of the PM of Pakistan to appoint whoever the PM sees fit. But unfortunately things don't work like that in Pakistan and they shouldn't when the motive of such appointments are to use the military for power play.

 

[M. Sarmad]

This is what you guys get it wrong.
Imran wanted power by appointing the next COAS and ISI Chief. The discord between Imran and the Establishment started after the Fall of Kabul in August 2021 over the appointments. There were rumors about the rift to the extent that Fawad Ch. and others had to deny them. Imran was advised by many to not follow that course and Pervez Elahi is on record to have said that he tried to stop Imran from interfering in military matters.

It was all power play, friends. Imran sought power through the military officials. Sugar coating this as some grand strategy of 'Civilian Supremacy' is disingenuous or naivete. Look at Irshad Bhatti saying: He says Imran was after prolonged power in Pakistan--it was all about 'Iqtedaar' and Irshad was one of those journalists who stayed with Imran until now. He was even called Irshad 'Tatti' by the Noonies for his loyalty to Imran after April 2022.

And Imran is not the first one to try to use the military for his goals. Nawaz Sharif also tried that in 1999 by appointing his choice as the COAS and sacking Musharraf.

Having said that, yes, it is the right of the PM of Pakistan to appoint whoever the PM sees fit. But unfortunately things don't work like that in Pakistan and they shouldn't when the motive of such appointments are to use the military for power play.

Are you suggesting that PM Imran Khan did not have the right to personally select a Chief of Army Staff (COAS), as stated in the constitution where the appointment is the prerogative of the Prime Minister? and that the decision made by the PDM to appoint a retired lieutenant general to the COAS position was the correct one.

The total number of Army Chiefs appointed by Nawaz Sharif is six. Are you suggesting that this privilege is only limited to the Sharif family?

And regardless of the veracity of claims regarding the 2018 elections and the actions taken or not taken by Imran Khan during his tenure as Prime Minister, it is undeniable that in the present context, Imran Khan serves as a representative and symbol of civilian supremacy that has been withheld from the Pakistani people by the Army for the past 75 years.

 

[PakFactor]

Although Khan may not be the Erdogan of Pakistan he does enjoy massive support among the highly educated folks. He has touched the pulse of many around me, his abrupt eviction from politics may cause a big vacuum that may take years to fill.

Many know I admired Khans' cricketing charms most of my life but never got to terms with his political acumen, especially in the last decade or so. I always wanted him to be magnanimous, kind, truthful, focused, effective, and reasonable.

As a new politician who was in his learning phase, Imran should have focused hard on good policies and not hatred towards all relevant personalities. Whatever is happening now is a great learning curve for him and maybe in the medium/long term, he may come out as a changed person.

The dude is 70 years old and isn't getting any younger. I'm sure it's dawned on him all ready to leave; he's just looking for a safe exit now. After seeing the last year, he and others know this country is beyond help.

No point in putting on more mileage to start from scratch again.

 

[CIA Mole]

We cannot deny that the army, establishment is keeping Pakistan together. If they become weak or are finished, then Pakistan will descent in to civil war. We have the nationalist who want Sindh, Kashmir, KPK, Balochistan separate, they're movement will grow quickly if they find a vacuum.

Still I would say the blame goes to the policy makers, the elite/establishment. What stops them from giving justice to the people, making independent Institutes, reforms in to the police, judiciary, free and fair elections, promote education, rule of law etc. You cannot hold a nation together by ruling with the law of jungle. Once justice is given in Pakistan then the nationalist will want to be part of Pakistan, or they should just declare martial law and get it over and done with.

Sir, I don't think you fully grasp the gravity and seriousness of the situation we are facing. Those nationalist groups and their once-marginalized slogans and sentiments are gaining ground and becoming mainstream. The Army can only effectively maintain the unity of our country if it has the complete trust and overwhelming support of the majority of our people in each of the federation units. Regrettably, the support for the Army is rapidly eroding, even among the educated urban middle class and in settled areas, primarily due to the oppressive tactics being employed by the Army against ordinary citizens and the violation of their rights and dignity. This shift will have significant and lasting consequences. Eventually, there will come a point where the Army will no longer be able to maintain control through force.

if army can fix economy then people can tolerate current situation

if not then there will be chaos regardless of who is in charge

 

[Meengla]

Are you suggesting that PM Imran Khan did not have the right to personally select a Chief of Army Staff (COAS), as stated in the constitution where the appointment is the prerogative of the Prime Minister? and that the decision made by the PDM to appoint a retired lieutenant general to the COAS position was the correct one.

The total number of Army Chiefs appointed by Nawaz Sharif is six. Are you suggesting that this privilege is only limited to the Sharif family?

Please don't twist my words.
Firstly, understand that the Establishment is a reality in Pakistan. A bitter truth. But something that can only be done away with by making Pakistan a 'normal' State and that path to that lies through making an honorable peace with India and by educating Pakistanis. An evolutionary approach--not some fake revolution by a fake Inqilaabi, which is Imran Khan.

As I said, it was the right of Imran Khan but not only his motives were in question--as even Irshad Bhatti is pointing out--but Imran was working not for Civilian Supremacy but to prolong his rule. Imran WAS unpopular until he tapped into Pakistanis' anti-Americanism after April 2022 and his unpopularity was shown in the byelections before April 2022. Heck, even my family in Karachi had started to regret voting for Imran while I tried to say that be patient and that issues like inflation will go away.

As for Nawaz Sharif--don't get me started. That maniac picked fights with so many Army Chiefs and got punished for that--he was thrown out of power THREE times and exiled TWICE. Enough said.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Firstly, understand that the Establishment is a reality in Pakistan. A bitter truth. But something that can only be done away with by making Pakistan a 'normal' State and that path to that lies through making an honorable peace with India and by educating Pakistanis. An evolutionary approach--not some fake revolution by a fake Inqilaabi, which is Imran Khan.

The solution you propose presents a catch-22 situation, making it impractical to implement. In order to eliminate the establishment's influence, Pakistan needs to transition into a "normal" state by fostering an honorable peace with India and focusing on education. However, as long as the establishment maintains its role, achieving these goals becomes unattainable.

Feel free to hold your dislike towards IK, but he is not a revolutionary in any sense. "Inqilab" is not his slogan. He believes in playing by the book and that is his greatest weakness, especially considering the lack of morals and character displayed by his adversaries.

 

[Meengla]

Feel free to hold your dislike towards IK, but he is not a revolutionary in any sense. "Inqilab" is not his slogan. He believes in playing by the book and that is his greatest weakness, especially considering the lack of morals and character displayed by his adversaries.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading that. All I heard from Imran is revolution and radical change and all kinds of bombastic BS rhetoric.

Playing by the book?? The idiot threw out the NCM in April 2022 !! Something which was never done before even in Pakistan and for that Imran had no option but to let the NCM go through. The idiot was probably counting on Gen. Faiz to help him last minute during the NCM--but Faiz was a junior to Bajwa and thank God for the military's discipline.

Stupid guy should have sat on the Opposition benches after losing the NCM and bide his time. He had a lot going for him then.

But I realized I was wrong about Imran and my break from Imran happened overnight after Imran threw out the NCM. For the first time after a long time, I paid attention to Pakistan's politics and I immediately realized that my support for Imran was misguided: I clearly saw him a fool and an authoritarian person. It's all in this forum--you can see my posts from that time. Perhaps I was a little soft on him for a few days after the NCM--he was my biggest hope--but I had to do course correction.

Now, I can only feel satisfaction that I had made a quick course correction based on the evidence I saw. And I have been proven correct!!

BTW, this was not the first time I made a course correction: I used to support MQM in the 1980s. But once the MQM goons attacked a newspaper for not 'properly covering' the wedding of MQM guy Farooq Sattar, I realized what MQM truly was : A fascist organization, led by a stupid authoritarian Altaf Hussein. I immediately stopped supporting MQM.

Anyway, I am not into banters on this forum or in real life. Time is a precious commodity for me and others. I keep repeating the same things here . Most fall on deaf ears.

None are more blind than those who refuse to see.

 

[M. Sarmad]

None are more blind than those who refuse to see.

^^ This is the only part of your post one could agree with. Anyway, as stated earlier, you are free to hate IK all you want

Have a nice day

 

[nbamba]

Please don't twist my words.
Firstly, understand that the Establishment is a reality in Pakistan. A bitter truth. But something that can only be done away with by making Pakistan a 'normal' State and that path to that lies through making an honorable peace with India and by educating Pakistanis. An evolutionary approach--not some fake revolution by a fake Inqilaabi, which is Imran Khan.

As I said, it was the right of Imran Khan but not only his motives were in question--as even Irshad Bhatti is pointing out--but Imran was working not for Civilian Supremacy but to prolong his rule. Imran WAS unpopular until he tapped into Pakistanis' anti-Americanism after April 2022 and his unpopularity was shown in the byelections before April 2022. Heck, even my family in Karachi had started to regret voting for Imran while I tried to say that be patient and that issues like inflation will go away.

As for Nawaz Sharif--don't get me started. That maniac picked fights with so many Army Chiefs and got punished for that--he was thrown out of power THREE times and exiled TWICE. Enough said.

I think it is an outdated topic to discuss whether to be pro-American or anti-American in Pakistan. The United States has already left Afghanistan. The influence of the United States on Pakistan is completely incomparable with that of Musharraf. Even the Taliban in Afghanistan are no longer Talking about whether it is anti-American, Imran Khan is actually provoking an outdated topic