Hoax? If Mars and other space missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

[Cyberian]

No one fakes space missions otherwise we would've visited other galaxies by now.

India's Mareekhi mission is a great marvel and pride for the impoverished country. It proves the point no matter how poor a nation maybe, whenever money is put into an ambitious project, anything is possible.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

Till very recently China had to import steel to make ball point pens.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-16/china-s-latest-innovation-the-ballpoint-pen

So going by that logic, all of Chinese space achievements are hoax?

 

[aakash_2410]

@aakash_2410 @Stephen Cohen

@Stephen Cohen

A few reason I can think of.

Building a cryogenic engine is considered THE MOST difficult thing to do in an aerospace industry. India has now joined elite club of 2-3 countries that have been able to do it independently.

1) Why has India then been unable to produce a simple gas turbine engine (A jet engine in a layman's terms)? Because there has simply been no need. Despite of India's Non-alignment policy, it has traditionally been part of Soviet Union''s influence and after the cold-war of US's to somewhat extent. You know what they say 'Necessity is mother of ALL inventions' India simply didn't have to. They were always spoilt for choices. If you notice the biggest breakthroughs came about at the time of sanctions (LCA and progress on Kaveri).

India has in the past gone down the route of 'Why would you want to reinvent the wheel and fail in doing that 100 times and embarrass yourself before succeeding once.' That attitude has changed ever since the 21st century, which is a good thing.

2) Lack of incentive for private sector. Even since East India company India has been overly cautious and socialist when it comes to private sector. Until recently, Government agencies had the monopoly and were expected to do everything without any real incentives. HAL this and DRDO that and so on.

If anyone knows how to compete, it's all these multi-national giants when it comes to making money. They will do the research, train people and produce themselves if they can make a buck out of it. Look everywhere else, Boeing, LM, BAE, MBDA, Airbus, GE, EADS, Rolls-Royce they're all multi-national giants that make the bulk of aerospace and defence industry.

3) Lack of infrastructure and skilled labour. Take UK for example, I graduated 2 years ago with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering and roughly 10,000 other people that same year. So, every year a tiny country with population of 60 million produces 10,000 Aeronautical Engineers whereas, India probably produces half that number with the population of 1.2 billion. India has always either had Creme De La Creme that is your ISRO scientists or cheap labour. But now even on intermediate level (that is your everyday engineers) India is third largest producer of STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) graduates.

New universities are opening left, right and centre and it will take some time but, government is investing heavily in new universities and it will take a few decades to catch up but, we'll get there.

http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?year=2016&category=2202

Now in 2016, India is 5th biggest publisher of scientific papers in Aerospace Engineering. In 1996, when these rankings started we were 11th and did less research than tiny Netherlands. In 20 years, we'll be in top 2. Also, research and its' applications take time. Faraday did research on electromagnetic induction around in mid-19th century and today, we're applying it in the biggest and cutting-edge military application. E.g. EMALS for aircraft carriers.

So, be patient India's only trajectory is upwards. For people like us sitting on a forum we don't have the patience to wait 15-20 years to see the change but, these things takes time.

 

[Stuttgart001]

Till very recently China had to import steel to make ball point pens.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-16/china-s-latest-innovation-the-ballpoint-pen

So going by that logic, all of Chinese space achievements are hoax?

Stupid. There are only one company in the world manufacturing pin balls in the world .US , Japan, Germany all the advanced industrialized nations chose to import not indegious produce the pin balls , due to the cost not the tech, which has nothing to do with the nation defense.
Indian people , do not be shameless. Work hard for your country and make a advanced ATGM demestically before bragging the cutting age missile tech ,OK?
Everyone on the earth knows bragging is not helpful, why your Indian guy could not understand?

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.

 

[master_13]

I believe Indian Mars mission is real. However, Indian seems to make it much bigger achievement than it really is. The Mars mission relied extensively on NASA navigational support, without it, Indian satellite would never able to reach Mars. Of course it's cheap when the most expensive part, navigational infrastructure is already built by others and provided for Indian to use.

 

[Bharat Muslim]

Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.


Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.


Another reason for suspicion about India's missile and space programmes:

I have never seen any Indian of extraordinary intelligence in real life. I have only heard or read about Indians of scientist's caliber in media television channels, newspapers, magazines, books etc but never in real life. I have been to many technological universities. But I have never seen any Indian worthy of being called a scientist.

I have the same feeling. All Indians I have seen in real life are so predictable and dull. This shows in the quality of posts by Indians and Mohajirs on PDF. Posts by ethnic Pakistanis are interesting and thrilling to read while those by Indians are mostly repetitive, uninspiring and boring.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

@Juggernaut_is_here

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@Juggernaut_is_here

Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan have to work only one single time....while Weapons, fighter jets have to be re usable for several times, that too with after withstanding questionable maintenance, hamfisted use by soldiers, harsh environments, varying grades of fuel...The engineering challenge goes an order of magnitude higher


Same reason why China being so super successful in space missions, still cannot produce fighter jet engines or were unable to till the last time I checked


This is also the reason why Ducati makes crappy roadbikes eventhough they build grand prix motorcycles capable of beating Honda and Yamaha in races....race bikes have to work under a specific set of conditions for a specific duration of time, though at much much higher performance enveleope



India's technological capability should be gauged by what level of indigenous sportbikes Indians can build...Indians can build good 250cc air -cooled sport bikes and somewhat okay 250cc water-cooled sport bikes

Chinese on the other hand can build 650cc water cooled twin-cylinder sportybikes.....they are not strictly sportbikes though and can be compared to 400cc pure sport bikes

I am talking of strictly sport bikes or in other words supersportbikes

India-----------------------------250cc level
China----------------------------400cc level (actaully CF Moto 650cc twin comparable to 400cc supersport)
Japan---------------------------1000cc level
Whites--------------------------1300cc Level (Ducati Hyperleggera)

 

[Jlaw]

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

Not if the technology is all foreign but claimed as your own. It's like you buy an Ikea table and assembled it, does that mean you own the patent to that? Does that mean you can build a similar table?

 

[RealNapster]

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

You are good in Math doesn't mean you will be great in Arts too. ISRO is a great organization doesn't mean DRDO will be the same.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

You are good in Math doesn't mean you will be great in Arts too. ISRO is a great organization doesn't mean DRDO will be the same.

The analogy you have stated is wrong and unsuitable for the topic.

Here's the correct one:

If you are good at Mathematics, you have to be necessarily good at Chess and computer programming (coding). Because all three activities are similar and related.

If somebody is bad at Mathematics but still excels in Chess and coding, then there's something fishy.

 

[RealNapster]

If you are good at Mathematics, you have to be necessarily good at Chess and computer programming (coding).

and metallurgy ?

Cheers

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Stupid. There are only one company in the world manufacturing pin balls in the world .US , Japan, Germany all the advanced industrialized nations chose to import not indegious produce the pin balls , due to the cost not the tech, which has nothing to do with the nation defense.
Indian people , do not be shameless. Work hard for your country and make a advanced ATGM demestically before bragging the cutting age missile tech ,OK?
Everyone on the earth knows bragging is not helpful, why your Indian guy could not understand?

Reported for personal attack. @The Eagle kindly do the needful.

The point that you sorely missed was that achievements in one area has no real bearing on achievements in another area. Somewhat similar to Green Lumber Fallacy. Specialised Knowledge / Expertise in one area is not good predictor of same in another area and each area has its own specialisation.

http://nassimtaleb.org/2012/08/nassim-talebs-green-lumber-problem/#.WZn1FZMjFsc

Look at Pakistan, they cann't design and manufacture a local car or scooter engine but they have designed, tested and manufactured a solid rocket engine for a ballistic missile.

I have the same feeling. All Indians I have seen in real life are so predictable and dull. This shows in the quality of posts by Indians and Mohajirs on PDF. Posts by ethnic Pakistanis are interesting and thrilling to read while those by Indians are mostly repetitive, uninspiring and boring.

Problem is that of scale and strata. You have met at most twenty to thirty thousand Indian of your own strata. Too less to be a sample of Indian population and not randomised to boot.

You are good in Math doesn't mean you will be great in Arts too. ISRO is a great organization doesn't mean DRDO will be the same.

Bravo! Someone gets the point! In its essence thats Green Lumber Fallacy. If you are great at predicting the order books of green lumber does not mean that you will even know what green lumber is.

If you are good at Mathematics, you have to be necessarily good at Chess and computer programming (coding). Because all three activities are similar and related.

If somebody is bad at Mathematics but still excels in Chess and coding, then there's something fishy.

Completely and totally wrong!

Computer science has much much lesser application of what you usually associate with Maths like calculus, complex and real analysis, trigonometry etc etc etc. Infact the kind of maths most prevlent in computer scinence is not even needed else where in almost all of the other branches of engineering. Things like combinatorics, finite sets, logic theory, discreet maths, language theory, algorithms, complexity analysis, computability, completeness and formal grammars. The massive lack of calculus and differential equation and finite element in formal computer science makes it totally alien when compared to any other branch of engineering. The portions of mathematics that finds service in computers is very specialised to computers and has not much use elsewhere. Unlike say calculus etc which is common to most of engineering except computer science.

And dont even get me started on coding. Chess. Hmmm... again it requires no training in mathematics.

You have shown the opposite of what you were proposing.

Not if the technology is all foreign but claimed as your own. It's like you buy an Ikea table and assembled it, does that mean you own the patent to that? Does that mean you can build a similar table?

How does it matter anymore? We are using the same technology to offer launch services at a much cheaper price point than from those whom we took it. Thats called value addition and thats only what matters. Rest is all egoistic bullshit.

Oh and BTW, most of these technologies are now out of patent. Patent regimes last only for 20 years or so.

Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan have to work only one single time....while Weapons, fighter jets have to be re usable for several times, that too with after withstanding questionable maintenance, hamfisted use by soldiers, harsh environments, varying grades of fuel...The engineering challenge goes an order of magnitude higher

Not exactly. Not always. Reliability of a design and its complexity or challenge are not always related. Heck, rocket science is used as a metaphor for complexity for a reason. Also expertise is dependent upon motivation. India had no motivation for developing expertise in all these weapnos fighter jets etc etc etc because they were readily available from outside. Space and ballsitic missile technologies? Well, not so. So you had to beg/borrow/steal enough of technology to develop indigenous capabilities. Which is what happened. Another comparable area is that of super computing. India in 90s developed an alternative technology to vector / SIMD kind of processors that Cray used to make by leveraging parallel processing. Why? Because it was denied to her and she needed it sorely. Again, presently we are not having our own indigenous computers in top 500s. Why? Because there is no motivation there. We can get supercomputers pretty easily from outside.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Completely and totally wrong!

Computer science has much much lesser application of what you usually associate with Maths like calculus, complex and real analysis, trigonometry etc etc etc. Infact the kind of maths most prevlent in computer scinence is not even needed else where in almost all of the other branches of engineering. Things like combinatorics, finite sets, logic theory, discreet maths, language theory, algorithms, complexity analysis, computability, completeness and formal grammars. The massive lack of calculus and differential equation and finite element in formal computer science makes it totally alien when compared to any other branch of engineering. The portions of mathematics that finds service in computers is very specialised to computers and has not much use elsewhere. Unlike say calculus etc which is common to most of engineering except computer science.

And dont even get me started on coding. Chess. Hmmm... again it requires no training in mathematics.

You have shown the opposite of what you were proposing.

I was talking about aptitude. Mathematics, Chess and coding seems different fields. But the aptitude required is same for all these three fields. That's why Russians excel in all of these three fields.