Hoax? If Mars and other space missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

[Jacob Martin]

@Jacob Martin

@xunzi

@hackerdelight

@Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Abey @Jacob Martin tu kuchh bolta kyon nahi hai? Teri Bolti band ho gayi iss topic pe?

First a little note on using anonymity on the internet: using anonymity in order to make criticism or raise issues that you would feel threatened to do otherwise is understandable. What is not condonable is using anonymity to lower the bar of civility and abuse someone simply for the heck of it. Reflects poorly on the person doing so.

As for your thread. There are various ways to structure a conspiracy theory. One would be to adduce evidence in the form of motive. Such as NASA and the moon landing hoax as a result of intense political pressure due to Soviet advances in the space race. Another way would be to cite evidence in the form of communication, literature or testimony, such as the Jewish world order and Protocol of the Elders of Zion. Yet another form would be circumstantial evidence in the form of technical inputs, as in the case of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, who claim that the World Trade Center collapse was a controlled demolition inside-job.

Yours is yet another kind, which for lack of more details I will refer to as sui generis. Of course, since you are not referring to either motive, literature or technical input, it would be incorrect to address your claim from those aspects. However, in order to pursue this line of reasoning, you will have to establish at least two things. Firstly, you will need to breakdown the technological components required for the mission into small parts that can be individually examined. Secondly, you will need to establish that technology has a linear aspect - that transition from tactical to practical is a smooth process, for instance.

So what are the technological inputs that we are talking about?

General :

- Propulsion
- Power
- Avionics
- Telecommunication
- Hardware
- Software

Exploration

- Entry, Decent and Landing
- Autonomous mobility
- Extreme condition survival

Instrumentation

- Collection and sampling Instrumentation
- Remote Instrumentation

So we can examine at least a few of these and see what it takes to make it work. Then we could see how these technologies have been replicated in military or civilian use. One way of doing that would be the NASA/DARPA model. How much of what NASA does percolates down to DARPA? That would give an idea of what should be going on between ISRO and DRDO.

One must understand that it takes time and funding for this transfer to take place. ISRO deals with only space flight and exploration. DRDO deals with Al systems regarding defence equipment. Even if ISRO spoonfeeds propulsion technology to DRDO, it cannot do anything about guidance and warhead design.

Taking the example of jet propulsion. It is not as if mastering propulsion technology is a linear process - i.e. first propeller, then jet and finally rocket. If Soviets helped us with rocket propulsion then it does not add anything to our jet engine development. Similarly, being able to steal centrifuge blueprints from Netherlands did not result in the atom bomb for Pakistan. A lot of help was needed for reactors, testing etc., provided by Iron Brother, of course.

In fact Iron Brother itself is the best example of this phenomenon. After having successfully reverse engineered Russian jet engines, they have struggled to take it forward and make better ones. And yet, their space program is booming. So ate their telecommunication and high speed computing research. So there is great possibility that some country will have critical gaps in its technology framework if it dies not have access to certain proprietary technology or is not able to reverse engineer it.

Technology comes as a whole package. Taking shortcuts in some areas can get you temporary solutions, but in terms long term, you need to have purchase over all areas.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

First a little note on using anonymity on the internet: using anonymity in order to make criticism or raise issues that you would feel threatened to do otherwise is understandable. What is not condonable is using anonymity to lower the bar of civility and abuse someone simply for the heck of it. Reflects poorly on the person doing so.

As for your thread. There are various ways to structure a conspiracy theory. One would be to adduce evidence in the form of motive. Such as NASA and the moon landing hoax as a result of intense political pressure due to Soviet advances in the space race. Another way would be to cite evidence in the form of communication, literature or testimony, such as the Jewish world order and Protocol of the Elders of Zion. Yet another form would be circumstantial evidence in the form of technical inputs, as in the case of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, who claim that the World Trade Center collapse was a controlled demolition inside-job.

Yours is yet another kind, which for lack of more details I will refer to as sui generis. Of course, since you are not referring to either motive, literature or technical input, it would be incorrect to address your claim from those aspects. However, in order to pursue this line of reasoning, you will have to establish at least two things. Firstly, you will need to breakdown the technological components required for the mission into small parts that can be individually examined. Secondly, you will need to establish that technology has a linear aspect - that transition from tactical to practical is a smooth process, for instance.

So what are the technological inputs that we are talking about?

General :

- Propulsion
- Power
- Avionics
- Telecommunication
- Hardware
- Software

Exploration

- Entry, Decent and Landing
- Autonomous mobility
- Extreme condition survival

Instrumentation

- Collection and sampling Instrumentation
- Remote Instrumentation

So we can examine at least a few of these and see what it takes to make it work. Then we could see how these technologies have been replicated in military or civilian use. One way of doing that would be the NASA/DARPA model. How much of what NASA does percolates down to DARPA? That would give an idea of what should be going on between ISRO and DRDO.

One must understand that it takes time and funding for this transfer to take place. ISRO deals with only space flight and exploration. DRDO deals with Al systems regarding defence equipment. Even if ISRO spoonfeeds propulsion technology to DRDO, it cannot do anything about guidance and warhead design.

Taking the example of jet propulsion. It is not as if mastering propulsion technology is a linear process - i.e. first propeller, then jet and finally rocket. If Soviets helped us with rocket propulsion then it does not add anything to our jet engine development. Similarly, being able to steal centrifuge blueprints from Netherlands did not result in the atom bomb for Pakistan. A lot of help was needed for reactors, testing etc., provided by Iron Brother, of course.

In fact Iron Brother itself is the best example of this phenomenon. After having successfully reverse engineered Russian jet engines, they have struggled to take it forward and make better ones. And yet, their space program is booming. So ate their telecommunication and high speed computing research. So there is great possibility that some country will have critical gaps in its technology framework if it dies not have access to certain proprietary technology or is not able to reverse engineer it.

Technology comes as a whole package. Taking shortcuts in some areas can get you temporary solutions, but in terms long term, you need to have purchase over all areas.

You want motive? It's in the LAST paragraph of this post. I need not emphasize/elaborate. You should get it in a single sentence.

There are strong reasons to believe that India's civilian space programs and military R&D projects may be non-indigenous or even fake. Indian technology doesn't seem to be about innovation/ingenuity. It is probably about purchasing and managing. The list of misleading red herrings is long. For instance, if India's Mars and Lunar missions are real, why is it unable to invent engines for it's military plane even after so many decades of trying? If Indian space missions are real, why are Indian programmers/coders so notoriously incompetent? Why is India harassed by a tiny country of Pakistan? Please don't cite Western awards and other significant 'recognition' of Indian science & technology. West has it's own agenda and their hyped certificates often don't indicate real merit.

The question is why do Indians do it? Why would Indians fabricate a facade about their science & technology prowess? I can think of two answers: One, to deter nuclear attacks by creating a camouflage of great strength. Two, to make money by siphoning R&D funds. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

 

[dray]

You want motive? It's in the LAST paragraph of this post. I need not emphasize/elaborate. You should get it in a single sentence.

There are strong reasons to believe that India's civilian space programs and military R&D projects may be non-indigenous or even fake. Indian technology doesn't seem to be about innovation/ingenuity. It is probably about purchasing and managing. The list of misleading red herrings is long. For instance, if India's Mars and Lunar missions are real, why is it unable to invent engines for it's military plane even after so many decades of trying? If Indian space missions are real, why are Indian programmers/coders so notoriously incompetent? Why is India harassed by a tiny country of Pakistan? Please don't cite Western awards and other significant 'recognition' of Indian science & technology. West has it's own agenda and their hyped certificates often don't indicate real merit.

The question is why do Indians do it? Why would Indians fabricate a facade about their science & technology prowess? I can think of two answers: One, to deter nuclear attacks by creating a camouflage of great strength. Two, to make money by siphoning R&D funds. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

See, that's why one should always wear a helmet while riding a bike.

 

[Jacob Martin]

You want motive? It's in the LAST paragraph of this post. I need not emphasize/elaborate. You should get it in a single sentence.

There are strong reasons to believe that India's civilian space programs and military R&D projects may be non-indigenous or even fake. Indian technology doesn't seem to be about innovation/ingenuity. It is probably about purchasing and managing. The list of misleading red herrings is long. For instance, if India's Mars and Lunar missions are real, why is it unable to invent engines for it's military plane even after so many decades of trying? If Indian space missions are real, why are Indian programmers/coders so notoriously incompetent? Why is India harassed by a tiny country of Pakistan? Please don't cite Western awards and other significant 'recognition' of Indian science & technology. West has it's own agenda and their hyped certificates often don't indicate real merit.

The question is why do Indians do it? Why would Indians fabricate a facade about their science & technology prowess? I can think of two answers: One, to deter nuclear attacks by creating a camouflage of great strength. Two, to make money by siphoning R&D funds. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

I am afraid you are taking a rather simplistic view. Uni-dimensional understanding is enticing because it explains a complex issue in easy to understand simplicity.

A significant part of India's R&D is indeed not home-grown. I wouldn't call it purchase, rather licensing. Technology is either transferred as part of a deal for manufacturing, or licensed for a price. There is nothing wrong with that. However, that is not the major problem. The major problem is, why can't we license or get ToT for even basic stuff like automatic rifles?

Also, why can't we reverse engineer basic military equipment such as IFVs and jet engines? There are certain legal hurdles to it. Suppose we reverse-engineer an American jet engine. The Americans will of course raise a hue and cry. They actually maintain a list of countries that steal their technology in this way and blacklist them from future arms deals. You may think that how does it matter, we can always but from another source. It's not that easy. India will be blacklisted not only by American firms, but anyone who uses proprietary American technology.

The Chinese and Russians don't care. They have their own indigenous defence eco-system. We cannot match that unless DRDO gets the right resources and funding. Where it goes wrong is in trying to be a jack of all trades instead if focusing on some core areas such as missiles, radars and jet engines (HAL).

Modern day defence equipment is so incredibly complex that until we have a policy decision in place that we will spend scare resources on R&D because we want economies of scale, we are better off buying from abroad. Where we fail is in not ensuring that each high-end purchase is our last purchase, because we fail to either get ToT or reverse engineer.

There is no great achievement in designing a weapons system from scratch if you take so long that it is outdated by the time you field the system. It is better that you buy really useful systems, and then mass-produce them at home.

So the question you should be asking really is why can't we even do that?

As for motive, do not confuse between DRDO and keyboard warriors. Keyboard warriors misrepresent out of a sense of nationalism - they like to believe their country is better. DRDO of course has to highlight its achievements, how else will it get funding and stay relevant?

 

[Chhatrapati]

One conspiracy theory thread

 

[Bharat Muslim]

I am afraid you are taking a rather simplistic view. Uni-dimensional understanding is enticing because it explains a complex issue in easy to understand simplicity.

A significant part of India's R&D is indeed not home-grown. I wouldn't call it purchase, rather licensing. Technology is either transferred as part of a deal for manufacturing, or licensed for a price. There is nothing wrong with that. However, that is not the major problem. The major problem is, why can't we license or get ToT for even basic stuff like automatic rifles?

Also, why can't we reverse engineer basic military equipment such as IFVs and jet engines? There are certain legal hurdles to it. Suppose we reverse-engineer an American jet engine. The Americans will of course raise a hue and cry. They actually maintain a list of countries that steal their technology in this way and blacklist them from future arms deals. You may think that how does it matter, we can always but from another source. It's not that easy. India will be blacklisted not only by American firms, but anyone who uses proprietary American technology.

The Chinese and Russians don't care. They have their own indigenous defence eco-system. We cannot match that unless DRDO gets the right resources and funding. Where it goes wrong is in trying to be a jack of all trades instead if focusing on some core areas such as missiles, radars and jet engines (HAL).

Modern day defence equipment is so incredibly complex that until we have a policy decision in place that we will spend scare resources on R&D because we want economies of scale, we are better off buying from abroad. Where we fail is in not ensuring that each high-end purchase is our last purchase, because we fail to either get ToT or reverse engineer.

There is no great achievement in designing a weapons system from scratch if you take so long that it is outdated by the time you field the system. It is better that you buy really useful systems, and then mass-produce them at home.

So the question you should be asking really is why can't we even do that?

As for motive, do not confuse between DRDO and keyboard warriors. Keyboard warriors misrepresent out of a sense of nationalism - they like to believe their country is better. DRDO of course has to highlight its achievements, how else will it get funding and stay relevant?

You completely ignored the other reason. You didn't utter a single word about the legitimate compulsion for creating this facade.

Do you know the classified information that India faces a direct military threat from Western countries? This threat is as severe in intent as (or may be even more than) that from say Pakistan or China. The danger of USA nuking us is real. How do I know? See the below instances and connect the dots.

1. Top RAW officer B. Raman has said that Khalistan insurgency was orchestrated by CIA.

2. The mysterious Purulia arms drop by a Danish national. Why such direct involvement by Danes in India's internal matters?

3. PM Dr. Manmohan Singh has alleged that the anti-nuclear protests at Kudankulam nuclear power plant were orchestrated by USA and Scandinavian nations.

USA does much more. But all that is classified information.

Hence this facade of space capabilities by India. It is to deter nuclear attacks by Western countries like USA by creating a camouflage of great strength. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

When that scientist guy Madhavan Nair said on the eve of China conducting a satellite destruction test, "We are capable of producing space weapons but we won't do so because we are against weaponisation of space." I believed him at that time. But now I feel he was merely bluffing.

 

[Jacob Martin]

You completely ignored the other reason. You didn't utter a single word about the legitimate compulsion for creating this facade.

Do you know the classified information that India faces a direct military threat from Western countries? This threat is as severe in intent as (or may be even more than) that from say Pakistan or China. The danger of USA nuking us is real. How do I know? See the below instances and connect the dots.

1. Top RAW officer B. Raman has said that Khalistan insurgency was orchestrated by CIA.

2. The mysterious Purulia arms drop by a Danish national. Why such direct involvement by Danes in India's internal matters?

3. PM Dr. Manmohan Singh has alleged that the anti-nuclear protests at Kudankulam nuclear power plant were orchestrated by USA and Scandinavian nations.

USA does much more. But all that is classified information.

Hence this facade of space capabilities by India. It is to deter nuclear attacks by Western countries like USA by creating a camouflage of great strength. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

When that scientist guy Madhavan Nair said on the eve of China conducting a satellite destruction test, "We are capable of producing space weapons but we won't do so because we are against weaponisation of space." I believed him at that time. But now I feel he was merely bluffing.

Firstly, if this information is classified then how do you have it?

As for your claims...

1) CIA was heavily involved with ISI during the period when the Khalistan movement was at its peak. The reason was because ISI was the tip of the spear against the Soviets in Afghanistan. CIA would have known about ISI activities, and indirectly ended up helping them as well. But being unscrupulous is not the same as wanting to nuke some country.

2. Did the fact that a Danish citizen was involved mean that it was done by the Danish government? So the Saudi government must have ordered 9/11? I am sure you have heard about mercenaries. They work for money.

3. Even if the Kundakulam agitation story is true, it has a simple explanation. The project is being done with Russian technology. Westinghouse is the other company that is involved in nuclear power projects in India. What is so difficult to understand that the Americans may want to sabotage a Russian nuclear deal? It is just about money.

Yes there was a time when due to our alignment with tell Soviet Block, US was quite hostile to India. But things have changed since then. I wouldn't call them great friends, but the worst one can allege is that they are only interested as long as they can profit. That doesn't mean we feel a nuclear threat from them. You are reading far too much into what is simply a matter of US pursuing its supposed national interests in a blatant manner, as it always does. That doesn't make it out friend, but not our enemy either.

 

[Sky lord]

@abcxyz0000 @Bharat Muslim

I would really like to know why you refer to yourself in the third person and talk to yourself in every thread?

No seriously....I'm interested to know the reason...not being facetious.

Is it indeed, as someone pointed out, that you simply forgot to wear a helmet on a bike? Or are you in need of medication?

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Firstly, if this information is classified then how do you have it?

As for your claims...

1) CIA was heavily involved with ISI during the period when the Khalistan movement was at its peak. The reason was because ISI was the tip of the spear against the Soviets in Afghanistan. CIA would have known about ISI activities, and indirectly ended up helping them as well. But being unscrupulous is not the same as wanting to nuke some country.

2. Did the fact that a Danish citizen was involved mean that it was done by the Danish government? So the Saudi government must have ordered 9/11? I am sure you have heard about mercenaries. They work for money.

3. Even if the Kundakulam agitation story is true, it has a simple explanation. The project is being done with Russian technology. Westinghouse is the other company that is involved in nuclear power projects in India. What is so difficult to understand that the Americans may want to sabotage a Russian nuclear deal? It is just about money.

Yes there was a time when due to our alignment with tell Soviet Block, US was quite hostile to India. But things have changed since then. I wouldn't call them great friends, but the worst one can allege is that they are only interested as long as they can profit. That doesn't mean we feel a nuclear threat from them. You are reading far too much into what is simply a matter of US pursuing its supposed national interests in a blatant manner, as it always does. That doesn't make it out friend, but not our enemy either.

George Bush Junior was a unique exception. George Bush was a friend of India. Read more about him in the below link. With Bush gone, friendship with US is also gone. Now kindly look into the link:

http://letterrawciajune2015.blogspot.in/

 

[Sky lord]

George Bush Junior was a unique exception. George Bush was a friend of India. Read more about him in the below link. With Bush gone, friendship with US is also gone. Now kindly look into the link:

http://letterrawciajune2015.blogspot.in/

So you're saying that George bush was friendly to India because he had an "undisclosed medical condition" !

But he was not an emperor - he was the president of a country with democratic checks and balances.

Does that mean the pentagon and the entireUS senate and congress also suffered from an " undisclosed medical condition" ?

 

[Khan_patriot]

What in the actual ****, how stupid can one be. I am up for conspiracy theories but gheez this thread is on a whole new level.

 

[dray]

You completely ignored the other reason. You didn't utter a single word about the legitimate compulsion for creating this facade.

Do you know the classified information that India faces a direct military threat from Western countries? This threat is as severe in intent as (or may be even more than) that from say Pakistan or China. The danger of USA nuking us is real. How do I know? See the below instances and connect the dots.

1. Top RAW officer B. Raman has said that Khalistan insurgency was orchestrated by CIA.

2. The mysterious Purulia arms drop by a Danish national. Why such direct involvement by Danes in India's internal matters?

3. PM Dr. Manmohan Singh has alleged that the anti-nuclear protests at Kudankulam nuclear power plant were orchestrated by USA and Scandinavian nations.

USA does much more. But all that is classified information.

Hence this facade of space capabilities by India. It is to deter nuclear attacks by Western countries like USA by creating a camouflage of great strength. The point they want to convey is: "Since we are capable of making civilian rockets, we are also capable of making effective and functioning nukes. So beware and refrain from using your nukes."

When that scientist guy Madhavan Nair said on the eve of China conducting a satellite destruction test, "We are capable of producing space weapons but we won't do so because we are against weaponisation of space." I believed him at that time. But now I feel he was merely bluffing.

Even pillion riders should wear a helmet while riding a bike.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Was it a hoax? If Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan missions were real, why is India unable to create lesser products?

USA faked the moon-landing in 1969. Did India do the same about Mars and Lunar space missions?

How would you explain that while India claims to travel such enormous distance in outer space but is unable to create products requiring much less ingenuity like military arms and equipments, mobile phones, computers, better trains, nuclear power plants, online social network, medicines, softwares etc?

How would you explain why India is still dependent on crap Russian technology for military items and nuclear power plant? The agreement for Kudankulam nuclear power plant was signed in early 1990s. But then came the dismantling of Soviet Union and the project was suspended for at least a decade. Why couldn’t Indians finish it on their own?

All this gives rise to suspicion. Indians didn’t produce this little above said things. How the hell they achieved Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan?

@aakash_2410 @Stephen Cohen

 

[JohnyD]

in fact there is no country called India...some countries are using that name to fool its people on its own failures...

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@aakash_2410 @Stephen Cohen

Only The people who are blinded by hate and jealousy will say such things