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History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

we are small and live under the shadow of China. That is depressing. Although we have successfully expanded our territory since we started the South March, but it is still too little.
it is incorrect for you to say as 'we' my Annam friend, unless you are the overseas student will return to serve your country you cannot say as we live under the shadow of China, you have ran away from your homelands into the arms of the Germany my friend :astagh:

you are the one who resorted to racial slur (Annam pig). Read your own posts! Can you tell me more about your professors (subject in CCP or what)? Not everyone is free to say nonsense. You cannot copy and paste of what one tells and say that is the truth. Use your brain!
by the way, I find it funny to debate with someone who makes fun about our cultures (and some derived from Sinic), when he comes from a country being famous for destroying cultural heritage in the so-called cultural revolution (actually the term cultural destruction fits better).

you should be the one to use the brain since you are the one to blindly believe in lies, learn your history again my Annam friend :close_tema:

the people of Red River delta for this time period is Tai, you are Austro Asiatic, a dark skin pure aboriginal of SEA, must be something to do with minority in Cuu Chan
Based upon degree of diversity, linguistic evidence therefore places the homeland of Proto Vietic in the interior regions of what is now Borikhamxay and Khammouane Provinces, with some overflow to the opposite side of the Sai Phou Louang (Annamite) chain, to the north in Nghe An and to the east in Quang Binh, that is, far south of the H6ng plain.

Furthermore, it is clear from the ethnolinguistic evidence summarized above that the modem Vietnamese were recent arrivals in the Delta, and that the movement of Viet-Meuang peoples generally has been from south to north, not the reverse as most histories would have us believe.

this is based on fingerprints or something so we cannot really trusting this but the conclusion sounds usable
According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.


see here the cultural connection between Tai and ancient Chinese
Maspero also saw certain Tai peoples as representatives of what we might label East Asian antiquity. In an essay entitled “The Society and Religion of the Ancient Chinese and of the Modern Tai”, Maspero compared the lives, festivals, religion, myths and funeral customs of the Black Tai and White Tai who lived in the mountains between Vietnam and Laos in the early 20th century with the same elements in ancient China. Ultimately, Maspero argued that the world which we can see in ancient Chinese texts like the Classic of Poetry (Shijing) closely resembles the world of the Black Tai and White Tai, and that these two peoples therefore represent a common world of antiquity which subsequently was largely lost to various cultural and social developments.7 In other words, to Maspero the Tai were an important people, but that importance lay somewhere in the distant past. The parallels which he saw between the life of the Black Tai and White Tai in the mountains of the Indochinese Peninsula and the lifestyle of the ancient Chinese as revealed in the Classic of Poetry were a clear sign of their antiquity.

here more proof Tai was settled in Northern VN according to toponym
Xu Songshi contributed to this understanding in a 1946 work entitled Research on the Dai, Zhuang and Yue (“Yue” here refers to the Cantonese). In this study, Xu Songshi points out that there were various place names in southern China and extending into northern Vietnam which came from Zhuang, a Tai language. For instance, he states that there were many place names which began with the character “gu” (古), or “cổ” in Vietnamese, a term which he argues came from Zhuang and has been interpreted in many ways, from meaning “I,” to a classifi er, to meaning a mountain with no vegetation on it. He also mentions that such place names could be found in the past from Anhui Province, in what is today central China, to Guangxi Province in the southwest, an area which he argues Tai speakers historically inhabited.9 Xu Songshi also cites a work which was published in 1877, Xu Yanxu’s Brief Compilation on Vietnam, which reportedly contains a map of the districts in Vietnam when it was under Chinese control in the early 15th century.10 This map apparently lists place names in what is today northern Vietnam such as the following: Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農). Additionally, Xu Songshi states that characters such as tư/si (思), đô/du (都), đa/duo (多), na/na (那), bố/bu (布), and điều/diao (調) also represent Zhuang words, and that in Vietnam during the 15th century there were also place names with these characters, such as the following: Na Ngạn (那岸), Lục Na (陸那), Đa Cẩm (多錦), Đa Dực (多翌), Tư Dung (思容), Điều An (調安), and Bố Chân (布真).11 Unfortunately, Xu Songshi did not state what these other terms might have meant in Zhuang, although anyone familiar with a Tai language can tell that “na/na” is the term for a field. While Xu Songshi therefore indicated that there was historically a strong Tai presence in the Red River Delta, he did not provide a clear historical explanation for how this happened.

Lac Viet is the expert in wet rice, Giao Chi was centre for rice production export to other province like Hepu, here it said your Viet learn wet rice cultivation from Tai
In particular, he notes that many words in Vietnamese dealing with wet rice agriculture all come from Tày Thái. For instance, both share a common word for rice = gạo/khẩu [BT, khảu], and they also make the same distinction between two main types of rice: glutinous rice, gạo nếp = khẩu dếp (Tày)/khẩu niêu (Thái) [BT, khảu ón], and regular white rice, gạo tẻ = khẩu te (Tày)/khẩu xẻ (Thái) [BT, khảo sẻ].44 In order to grow wet rice, one needs to be able to control the necessary water. Phạm Đức Dương fi nds that Việt Mường words pertaining to this topic, such as mương phai (“irrigation canal”) [BT, mương = irrigation ditch, phai = dam] and guồng (“waterwheel”) [BT, cuống], come from Tày Thái . Based on this information, he argues that the Việt Mường must have learned about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Tày Thái.


the legends of VN to do with Hung Kings and Lac society all derive from Tai words
Phạm Đức Dương adds that the head of this new super muang was called phò khun in Tai. Here he agrees with Trần Quốc Vượng that the term, “hùng,” in the title “Hùng king” comes from this Tai term.
To quote again, the Complete Book recorded that under the Hùng kings, “the princes were called quan lang, and princesses were called mỵ nương. Offi cials were called bồ chính. From one generation to the next fathers passed [positions] on to their sons. This is called the way of the father [phụ đạo].” All of these terms are Tai Journal of terms, or more accurately, they are mostly “Sinicized Tai” terms as they combine Tai and Chinese elements. As for mỵ nương, the first term, “mỵ,” is “mae” (แม่) in Tai and literally means “mother,” whereas the second term, “nang,” means “maiden” and is a Chinese term, “niang” (娘). Similarly, “quan lang” consists of a Chinese term for “offi cial” (官, guan) and another term which means “man” and which was used in offi cial titles in medieval China, but was also used in titles for certain aboriginal peoples in the area of Guangxi. Fan Chengda, for instance, noted that some “savage” headmen were called “langhuo” (郎火).80 Quan lang was used at least from the time of the Tang to refer to low-level offi cials who ruled over aboriginal peoples on behalf of the Chinese in the area of the Red River delta. For instance, a Tang-era text records that for generations members of a family surnamed Phùng served as “barbarian rulers” (夷長, Di trưởng/Yizhang) on the edge of the delta and were called “quan lang.”81 As for “bồ chính,” this term likewise appears to be a hybrid term. The word “bồ” could be the equivalent of either “phu” (ผู้, person) or “pho” (พ่อ, father) in Tai. “Chính,” meanwhile could be “chieng” in Tai, which means “citadel” and comes from the Chinese “cheng” (城). The “phu chieng” or “pho chieng” could therefore
signify something like the “master of the citadel.” Finally, what the text refers to as the passing of rulership from one generation to the other, or the “way of the father” (phụ đạo), could be a reference to an “elder” or “phu thaw” (ผู้เฒ่า), or to a term which the Black Tai used to refer to their rulers, “phu thaw” (ผู้ท้าว).

movement of Viets and gain help from your Mon-Khmer brothers Chenla and Linyi, 400000 is maybe 40000 or something
Many questions remain unanswered. The precise dates when the ethnic Vie1namese actually replaced the Tai in the Delta are uncertain, but this must have occurred sometime between the seventh and the ninth centuries.
In 722 a man named Mai Thuc Loan from a salt-producing village on the Hoan coast southeast ofHa Tinh (southern Nghe An) brought together people from thirty-two provinces, including Lin-i, Chen-la, and a hitherto unknown kingdom called Chin-lin ('gold neighbor'), altogether totaling four hundred thousand, and styling himself'the Black Emperor' he marched northward and 'seized all of Annam.'

Some historical events appear with such little context that it is impossible to evaluate what exactly happened or what significance they might be imagined to have had. One such event is the great spasm of violence that broke into the southern Tang frontier in 722 under the leadership of a man remembered in Tang records as the Black Emperor, presumably because he was black. He came from a coastal village at the extreme southern frontier of the Tang Empire, in modern Ha Tinh Province, near Ngang Pass at the Hoanh Son massif. This was not only on the border of Tang with peoples on the southern coast; it was also near the terminus of the main route from the middle part of the Mekong over the mountains through Mu Gia Pass to the coast. According to Tang records, the Black Emperor assembled a host of four hundred thousand, comprised of a multitude of peoples from the mountains, the coasts, and the seas beyond the Tang frontier. What led to this breakdown of Tang frontier vigilance is as mysterious as what may have elicited and enabled the Black Emperor’s leadership. The Black Emperor and his followers marched north and, surprising the fleeing Tang authorities, soon had the entire Protectorate of An Nam under their plundering regime, Tang forces in the north immediately mobilized, marched back into the Protectorate, and slaughtered the Black Emperor and his horde. Forty-five years later, in 767, a somewhat similar episode occurred when people identified in Tang records with terms generally applied to the islands of what is now Indonesia invaded from the sea and briefly overran the Protectorate of An Nam until armies mobilized in the north arrived to expel them.

Ai and seven other provinces were established in the basin of the Ma. Taylor regards this territory as a backwater in the center of the protectorate that was least affected by Chinese rule, and therefore 'emerged in the tenth century as the original and most persistent center of the politics of independence' (p. 173). In ethnolinguistic terms, I would rephrase this to say that Ai, especially the hinterlands, was a vacuum filled eventually by Muimg speakers, the language closest to Vietnamese, whose language and culture exhibit Tai influence as opposed to Chinese.

At the end of 862, Nan-chao which had been threatening Annam for some time, invaded with a force of fifty thousand men and Giao fell at the beginning of 863. Records state that one hundred and fifty thousand Tang soldiers were killed or captured by Nan-chao and an unknown number fled to the north. Probably the highest portion was local recruits and it may be assumed that the victory of Nan-chao led to a severe reduction in population in the Delta. Nan-chao was driven out by Kao P'ien in 866 (Taylor: 239ft). Of interest, in the wake of the Nan-chao war and the weakened condition of Giao, are Taylor's remarks (p. 248) to the effect that the existence of 'two cultural currents' became clear: ( 1) the Tang-Viet Buddhist culture of Giao, militarily dependent upon Tang, and (2) the anti-Tang elements, many of whom had sided with Nanchao and fled into the mountains with the attack of Kao P'ien.2


here the Viet historian said during domination period you are already civilised as should be expected
When Viet scholars eventually pieced together a history of their kingdom, they argued that the period when Shi Xie governed over Jiaozhi Commandery was the time when the texts and practices which enabled people to develop moral virtue were first taught. Hence, Ngo Si Lien commented that, “Our kingdom became well-versed in the Classic of Poetry and Venerated Documents, started to practice [Confucian] rites and music, and became a domain of manifest civility starting in the time of King Shi [i.e. Shi Xie].”
but here Song emperor speaking as if you are barbaric savages was never civilised
Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold: "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?"

"Narrating an Unequal Relationship: How Premodern Viet Literati Explained their Kingdom's Relationship with 'the North'" | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
Tai Words and the Place of the Tai in the Vietnamese Past | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1998origin.pdf
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1992black.pdf
 
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I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese Nanyue Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.
For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese mutiny from China".
 
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I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese Nanyue Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.
For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese mutiny from China".
they said Chinese domination period because they have the inferiority complex, try to explain everything that was borrowed from Chinese was because of that period, it is simple logic that Viet try to claim Chinese culture is forced on them to hide from the fact they willingly adopt Chinese, ask any of the Viets member here about their history and they will tell you they already were civilised have their own writing script and society before Chinese move in but somehow they lost all of it

Nanyue as belonging to Viet is depending who you are speaking to, some denied it as Viet and others said it as Viet since Zhao Tuo is ruling for the people against Chinese not over them but it is incorrext both ways since it should be considered the Tai Kingdom
 
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it is incorrect for you to say as 'we' my Annam friend, unless you are the overseas student will return to serve your country you cannot say as we live under the shadow of China, you have ran away from your homelands into the arms of the Germany my friend :astagh:



you should be the one to use the brain since you are the one to blindly believe in lies, learn your history again my Annam friend :close_tema:

the people of Red River delta for this time period is Tai, you are Austro Asiatic, a dark skin pure aboriginal of SEA, must be something to do with minority in Cuu Chan


this is based on fingerprints or something so we cannot really trusting this but the conclusion sounds usable



see here the cultural connection between Tai and ancient Chinese


here more proof Tai was settled in Northern VN according to toponym


Lac Viet is the expert in wet rice, Giao Chi was centre for rice production export to other province like Hepu, here it said your Viet learn wet rice cultivation from Tai



the legends of VN to do with Hung Kings and Lac society all derive from Tai words


movement of Viets and gain help from your Mon-Khmer brothers Chenla and Linyi, 400000 is maybe 40000 or something









here the Viet historian said during domination period you are already civilised as should be expected

but here Song emperor speaking as if you are barbaric savages was never civilised


"Narrating an Unequal Relationship: How Premodern Viet Literati Explained their Kingdom's Relationship with 'the North'" | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
Tai Words and the Place of the Tai in the Vietnamese Past | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1998origin.pdf
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1992black.pdf

In North Vietnam, people say: "Lúa Chiêm".

Champa people can claim that Kinh People learnt from them the about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Champa peope.:close_tema: 
they said Chinese domination period because they have the inferiority complex, try to explain everything that was borrowed from Chinese was because of that period, it is simple logic that Viet try to claim Chinese culture is forced on them to hide from the fact they willingly adopt Chinese, ask any of the Viets member here about their history and they will tell you they already were civilised have their own writing script and society before Chinese move in but somehow they lost all of it

Nanyue as belonging to Viet is depending who you are speaking to, some denied it as Viet and others said it as Viet since Zhao Tuo is ruling for the people against Chinese not over them but it is incorrext both ways since it should be considered the Tai Kingdom

Chinese are considered as foreign invaders, aggressors. Enough said. 
How nomal viet see China and Japan. As fiend or enemy ...

In this time, China is enemy. Japan is economy counterpart.
 
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Being greedy is the way to become the masters of the world, but of course being greedy is not enough, you have to be greedly WISELY. And people wonder why US, China and Russia are so freaking big..
agreed. But why does China do everything to contain Vietnam (if we try to step out of border)? That is not fair.
Korea during Ming and Qing Dynasty was really nothing but a useless nation.
that is harsh.
 
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I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese Nanyue Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.

For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese mutiny from China".
well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).
 
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well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).

Well the country was part of modern China as well, not to mention its culture was more Chinese, the founder was Chinese and its capital was in China. Also the Han Dynasty didn't represent the 'whole' ancient China.

Do they~?
Oh yes for me Vietnam is just another Outer Mongolia~ both of you people were 'independent from China'. You may be independent countries and enjoy having your "freedom", but that doesn't mean that you can have OUR history~
 
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agreed. But why does China do everything to contain Vietnam (if we try to step out of border)? That is not fair.

that is harsh.

Because ancient China always consider Vietnam as a "traditional Chinese territory"?
Because they have seen what Vietnam have done to the people of Guangdong and Guangxi in Song Dynasty?

Facts are sometimes harsh.
 
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How nomal viet see China and Japan. As fiend or enemy ...
here is my 2cent opinion:

Who is friend and who is foe? yes, both are friend... and enemy.

To start with Japan: most Vietnamese admire the Japanese people. We consider them as hard-working and smart people, it is a powerful and rich country. We see them cultural close to ours (sinic influenced). We understand them well and see Japan as a friend.

There is a dark shadow in the past between our countries, when Imperial Japan invaded Vietnam (French-controlled Indochina at that time). Despite many of us died admit hunger caused by famine during occupation, some gave them a plus as Japan supported the re-unification of Vietnam (The French cut Vietnam into three parts: Cokinchina, Annam and Tonking, principle of divide and conquer). But that is luckily long ago, as a young generation born after 1975, most of us have forgotten and forgiven. Japan has helped us very much in the last 20 years to recover from the wars and poverty (they provided most of ODA inflows). Personally I like Japan, too.

China is a different story. We have an ambivalent relationship with the Chinese. On one side, we hate them to the bone as they are aggressive and arrogant. Aggressive because they attacked us multiple times, arrogant because they look down on us (for example they boast of the money they possess, although nobody of us is impressed). Chinese are seen as rude, uncivilized and greedy people.

On the other side, we admire Chinese much. They are seen (similar to Japanese people) as smart and hard-working. They are very successful in economics. Their cultures and custom are great, so that we want to copy all. As enemy we fear them most (more than any others). Chinese are huge in numbers. Many see Chinese as close relative. A fight with Chinese is like a confrontation within the family. That hurts all. I like ancient Chinese films (with beautiful girls and mighty hero carrying swords). LOL

Simply put. Sometimes, I wish Vietnam could be an island nation like Japan or the Philippines, protected by a vast Ocean. Or we would build a Vietnamese version of Chinese wall, 20m in height along our common border, like the Berlin Wall during the cold war in Germany. But mostly I wish China and Vietnam could settle all disputes and live in peace and prosperity side by side.

Okay...that is.
 
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But Vietnam did invaded and despise other countries (adopted the worldview from China), there is not really a good excuse to call China aggressive and arrogant.

If Vietnam has conquered the whole Indochina after gaining independence from China, that would have been a different story. Unfortunately Vietnam doesn't have the guts and national power like Qin Kingdom and Manchurian had.

In other words, Vietnam has already lost at the starting point.

Anyway, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, are you sure that Vietnam would have become "another Japan", but not "another Philippines"? Or even "worse" - China would have owned three big islands: Taiwan, Hainan and something called 'Vietwan'~
 
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But Vietnam did invaded and despise other countries (adopted the worldview from China), there is not really a good excuse to call China aggressive and arrogant.~
you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL
If Vietnam has conquered the whole Indochina after gaining independence from China, that would have been a different story. Unfortunately Vietnam doesn't have the guts and national power like Qin Kingdom and Manchurian had.

In other words, Vietnam has already lost at the starting point.~
well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?

360px-Nam_Tien.PNG






Here is a good article about March to the South. That explains a bit.

March to the South - Independence Restored - History - Vietnam - Asia
Independence Restored, March to the South

Under the Ly dynasty Vietnam gradually became a dynamic force in Southeast Asia, and this power increased under the succeeding Tran dynasty. The Tran took power from the Ly in 1225, when the eight-year-old Ly empress transferred power to her new Tran husband. During the remainder of the 13th century, the Tran were preoccupied with the growing power of the Mongols, pastoral warriors from northern Asia. The Mongols completed their conquest of China in 1279 and established a new empire there known as the Yuan dynasty. A few years later, Mongol armies invaded Vietnam in an effort to reincorporate the Red River Valley into China. Under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao, the Vietnamese vigorously resisted; after several bitter battles they defeated the invading forces and drove them back across the border.

While the Vietnamese maintained their guard to the north, an area of equal and growing interest lay to the south. For centuries, the Vietnamese state had been restricted to its heartland in the Red River Valley and the mountainous perimeter. Determined to obtain an outlet for their growing population, in the 10th century Vietnamese rulers began turning their attention south to the kingdom of Champa, a seafaring state inhabited by Malay-speaking peoples. The two states competed bitterly for advantage. On several occasions, Cham armies broke through Vietnamese defenses and occupied the Vietnamese capital. More frequently, Vietnamese troops were victorious, and they gradually drove the kingdom of Champa to the south. In the 15th century Vietnamese forces captured the Cham capital, south of present-day Da Nang, and virtually destroyed the kingdom.

For the next several generations, Vietnam continued its historic “march to the south,” wiping up the remnants of the Cham kingdom and gradually penetrating the marshy flatlands of the Mekong Delta. There it confronted a new foe, the Khmer kingdom of Angkor, which had once been the most powerful state in mainland Southeast Asia. By the late 16th century, however, it was in a state of decline and unable to offer sustained resistance to Vietnamese encroachment. A hundred years later, Vietnam occupied the lower Mekong Delta and began advancing westward, threatening to transform the disintegrating Khmer state into a mere protectorate.
Anyway, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, are you sure that Vietnam would have become "another Japan", but not "another Philippines"? Or even "worse" - China would have owned three big islands: Taiwan, Hainan and something called 'Vietwan'~
ha ha ha...do you know it is very much difficult to invade an island, or launch an invasion from the sea? Take the invasion of Normandy in WWII. The allied invasion fleet consisted of 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels (source wiki). Besides the Allies had air superiority over the landing zone.


Under the rule of Nguyen dynasty at the beginning of 19 century, Vietnam had a great naval fleet.
 
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You didn't answer my question:

40 million Cantonese shared paternal blood lineage from Native males, no_Han. What kind of ethnic group they belong to ?

Don't lie that they are Zhuang. because Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1 million.:rofl:

Their ancestors were Zhuang people who adopted Cantonese language and Han culture after millions of Han migrants moved to Guangdong from northern China. They gave up their own Zhuang Tai language and culture.

Over 60 million Cantonese are have Han paternal lineage (O3a) and they were the majority, so they absorbed the Zhuang minority into their culture and language.

The "native male" lineage in Guangdong is O1 and O2a which is shared with Zhuang people. O1 is also an austronesian haplogroup (related to Taiwan aboriginals), who may have lived in southern China before the Han expansion south. O3a is northern Han, which most Cantonese have.

大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成,例:大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】

Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structu... [Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF

Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006 Dec;33(12):1060-72.
Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structure of Zhuang populations.
Chen J, Li H, Qin ZD, Liu WH, Lin WX, Yin RX, Jin L, Pan SL.
Source
Department of Pathophysiology, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning 530021, China.
Abstract
Zhuang, the largest ethnic minority population in China, is one of the descendant groups of the ancient Bai-Yue. Linguistically, Zhuang languages are grouped into northern and southern dialects. To characterize its genetic structure, 13 East Asian-specific Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 7 Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) markers were used to infer the haplogroups of Zhuang populations. Our results showed that O*, O2a, and O1 are the predominant haplogroups in Zhuang. Frequency distribution and principal component analysis showed that Zhuang was closely related to groups of Bai-Yue origin and therefore was likely to be the descendant of Bai-Yue. The results of principal component analysis and hierarchical clustering analysis contradicted the linguistically derived north-south division. Interestingly, a west-east clinal trend of haplotype frequency changes was observed, which was supported by AMOVA analysis that showed that between-population variance of east-west division was larger than that of north-south division. O* network suggested that the Hongshuihe branch was the center of Zhuang. Our study suggests that there are three major components in Zhuang. The O* and O2a constituted the original component; later, O1 was brought into Zhuang, especially eastern Zhuang; and finally, northern Han population brought O3 into the Zhuang populations.

Tai peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While Chinese scholarship continues to place the "Zhuang–Dong languages" among the Sino-Tibetan family, other linguists treat the Tai languages as a separate family. Another family with which they have been linked is the Austronesian languages, which dispersed from Taiwan after a migration from the mainland. However the Austro-Thai hypothesis uniting these families is now supported by few scholars.[11] However genetic evidence also points out Zhuang possesses a very high frequency of Haplogroup O2 with most of them being subclade O2a making it the most dominant marker, a marker which they share with Austro-Asiatic, the other portion of O2 belongs to subclade O2a1. Zhuangs also have prevalent frequencies of O1 which links them with Austronesian, but O1 is at much lower rate compared to O2a and only slightly higher than O2a1. Haplogroup O2 in Taiwan aborigines is almost completely non-existent, but they exhibit very high frequencies of O1. This suggests that after the separation of Tai and Austronesian, Tai-Kadai speakers assimilated mostly Austro-Asiatic people into their population.[12]

Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]

After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]

The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]

If the 40 million people adopt Zhuang Baiyue language and culture, they are still outnumbered by over 60 million Cantonese, and Zhuang people already have an autonomous region in Guangxi.
 
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well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).

Nanyue was not a Vietnamese Kingdom. Nanyue was a Chinese ruled, majority Tai Kingdom, with the Vietnamese as a conquered minority in the Red River delta.

Au Lac and Van Lang were Tai Kingdoms, with Tai overlords ruling over conquered Vietnamese after the Tai invaded the Red River Delta from Guangdong.

The descendants of those Tai people are the Zhuang. Most of Nanyue was in Tai land in Guangdong and Guangxi.

This is a map of where Tai people lived.

fig1mt72e.gif


This is where Nanyue started off

Nanyue001.png


This is how nanyue enlarged after the Chinese and Tai conquered the Vietnamese

Nam-Viet_200bc.jpg


This was the homeland of Vietnamese.

VietnamRedRiverDeltamap.png


Even today, Vietnamese speaking areas and native Tai speaking areas show who was there first.

Vietnamese-

Natively_Vietnamese-speaking_areas.png


Tai-

Taikadai-en.svg


you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL

well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?

Tran dynasty is Chinese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
 
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China is a different story. We have an ambivalent relationship with the Chinese. On one side, we hate them to the bone as they are aggressive and arrogant. Aggressive because they attacked us multiple times, arrogant because they look down on us (for example they boast of the money they possess, although nobody of us is impressed). Chinese are seen as rude, uncivilized and greedy people.

On the other side, we admire Chinese much. They are seen (similar to Japanese people) as smart and hard-working. They are very successful in economics. Their cultures and custom are great, so that we want to copy all. As enemy we fear them most (more than any others). Chinese are huge in numbers. Many see Chinese as close relative. A fight with Chinese is like a confrontation within the family. That hurts all. I like ancient Chinese films (with beautiful girls and mighty hero carrying swords). LOL

Simply put. Sometimes, I wish Vietnam could be an island nation like Japan or the Philippines, protected by a vast Ocean. Or we would build a Vietnamese version of Chinese wall, 20m in height along our common border, like the Berlin Wall during the cold war in Germany. But mostly I wish China and Vietnam could settle all disputes and live in peace and prosperity side by side.

Okay...that is.

So are Vietnamese rude, uncivilized and greedy too, since you copied our culture and custom? :laugh:
 
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you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL

well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?

360px-Nam_Tien.PNG






Here is a good article about March to the South. That explains a bit.

March to the South - Independence Restored - History - Vietnam - Asia
Independence Restored, March to the South

Under the Ly dynasty Vietnam gradually became a dynamic force in Southeast Asia, and this power increased under the succeeding Tran dynasty. The Tran took power from the Ly in 1225, when the eight-year-old Ly empress transferred power to her new Tran husband. During the remainder of the 13th century, the Tran were preoccupied with the growing power of the Mongols, pastoral warriors from northern Asia. The Mongols completed their conquest of China in 1279 and established a new empire there known as the Yuan dynasty. A few years later, Mongol armies invaded Vietnam in an effort to reincorporate the Red River Valley into China. Under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao, the Vietnamese vigorously resisted; after several bitter battles they defeated the invading forces and drove them back across the border.

While the Vietnamese maintained their guard to the north, an area of equal and growing interest lay to the south. For centuries, the Vietnamese state had been restricted to its heartland in the Red River Valley and the mountainous perimeter. Determined to obtain an outlet for their growing population, in the 10th century Vietnamese rulers began turning their attention south to the kingdom of Champa, a seafaring state inhabited by Malay-speaking peoples. The two states competed bitterly for advantage. On several occasions, Cham armies broke through Vietnamese defenses and occupied the Vietnamese capital. More frequently, Vietnamese troops were victorious, and they gradually drove the kingdom of Champa to the south. In the 15th century Vietnamese forces captured the Cham capital, south of present-day Da Nang, and virtually destroyed the kingdom.

For the next several generations, Vietnam continued its historic “march to the south,” wiping up the remnants of the Cham kingdom and gradually penetrating the marshy flatlands of the Mekong Delta. There it confronted a new foe, the Khmer kingdom of Angkor, which had once been the most powerful state in mainland Southeast Asia. By the late 16th century, however, it was in a state of decline and unable to offer sustained resistance to Vietnamese encroachment. A hundred years later, Vietnam occupied the lower Mekong Delta and began advancing westward, threatening to transform the disintegrating Khmer state into a mere protectorate.
ha ha ha...do you know it is very much difficult to invade an island, or launch an invasion from the sea? Take the invasion of Normandy in WWII. The allied invasion fleet consisted of 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels (source wiki). Besides the Allies had air superiority over the landing zone.

Under the rule of Nguyen dynasty at the beginning of 19 century, Vietnam had a great naval fleet.

Indeed I am right, every single nation in the world are aggressive and arrogant. There isn't such thing of "peaceful nation" nor "Victims in bloody millions generations". There are only weak and strong nations. Even the so-called peaceful Tibetan had been invading the Chinese mainland for several times for no good reason, until they have castrated themselves by adopting some sort of stupid religion.

Every time I hear about people (no matter if they are Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese...) claiming themselves as "peaceful people", I just want to slap them in the faces and throw them out of the window from 50th floor.

I was actually not talking about defending, but expanding.
The Qin Kingdom have conquered several Kingdoms, made its land several times bigger and founded the first Empire in China. The Qing dynasty with only a few of population early have conquered the whole 12 Han provinces, the whole Mongolian territory, Tibet, Taiwan and defeated one of the most dangerous enemy Junggar.
I know that Vietnam is bigger than it was, but has it ever made such achievement like Chinese did. Like, conquer Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar. Just like what Qin people did?

Nah~ Lets not take it to modern that fast. I mean, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, will Vietnam become a "civilized Japan", or an "uncivilized Philippines (not part of China)/ Taiwan (part of China)"~? 
 
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