History of Afghans (Articles and Pictures)

[Shahmir]

Not a historical map but useful one to know about location of pashtun majority regions of balochistan.
View attachment 57002

Interesting map, one of my friends, a tareen pathan/pashtun, is from sibbi balochistan but says that they speak sindhi language as their mother tongue and they co-inhabit sibbi with some baloch tribes who probably also peak sindhi or balochi. I found it really interesting that sindhi language was spoken that deep in balochistan right in sibbi district which is quite far away from balochistan's border with sindh.

 

[Samandri]

Interesting map, one of my friends, a tareen pathan/pashtun, is from sibbi balochistan but says that they speak sindhi language as their mother tongue and they co-inhabit sibbi with some baloch tribes who probably also peak sindhi or balochi. I found it really interesting that sindhi language was spoken that deep in balochistan right in sibbi district which is quite far away from balochistan's border with sindh.

The pashtun (pashto speaking) majority portion of Sibi shown in map, is now separated as harnoi district. Beside that, pashtun clans of Barozai and khajjak in the sibi indeed speak sindhi. Its because sibi was ruled by kalhoras of sindh.
I am not sure whether barazai and khajjak tribes, identify and feel themeselves as pashtuns. There are pashtun tribes in bolan, mastung and kalat who have lost pashto and identify themeselves as bruhoi-baloch. Famous example is raisani of Bolan and zahrkhel of mastung. So i am curious about barozai of sibi who were appointed governors of sibi, kachi and bugti-marri area during Afghan rule.

 

[Kabira]

. And I thought Raheel was a Chib. I didn't know he was a Bhatti.

Sorry i meant Aziz Bhatti shaheed. Raheel family use rana surname.

 

[Kabira]

As far as Baloch and Brahvi question is concerned it is purely a text book case of elite dominance, the vast majority of so-called modern Baloch are simply balochi speaking Brahvis due to elite dominance of small but dominant baloch tribe that penetrated in their region and imposed their balochi language on some of the brahvi tribes who speak balochi today. The actual tribe is Brahvi whereas balochi is a construct on top of it and their genetic results are confirming it.

As far as founder effect is concerned it is relevant only for the "frequency" of certain haplogroups in isolated populations due to natural or sexual selection over the centuries. It has little influence on the "autosomal" genetic heritage of that population since autosomal ancestary tracks all your ancestors from the beginning of human race who are responsible for your existence today. For example a person's existence is not entirely restricted to his immediate parents but his grand parents too and parents of the grand parents too and so on, it never ends until we reach back to genetically first modern human being.

True, brahui are indigenous. Autosomal results confirm that, they are least south indian shifted population out of any other group around them inlcuding Baloch. So south/central India origin is out of question. Also theories to explain brahui in Balochistan never made sense to me. For exemple some people say they migrated/invaded from central/south india around 900-1000 years ago.

 

[ghoul]

Sorry i meant Aziz Bhatti shaheed. Raheel family use rana surname.

Oh really? Then they must be Bhatti. Chibs use Raja as surname. And btw I just found out that Pakistan's worst and most reckless terrorist, Ilyas Kashmiri was a Chib. They make very daring warriors.

And interesting trend that I have noticed on harappa is that almost all of pakistani ethnicities have more caucasian component but less NE euro component that is one particular trend that is common across all pakistani provinces and also all the tribes within any province. This particular trend I always find very interesting since it is true for all the populations from hunza down to sindh. This trend is also seen even among the hindu populations from these regions who have migrated to india such as punjabi khatris and sindhi hindus etc. I always feel that there is a particular look prevalent in pakistanis that is not found in india except some khatris and sindhi hindus, might be due to this shared ancestary in ancient past.

I was surprised that even Kalaash are 22% south Indian on average. I believe this south indian is a relic from the Indus Valley Civilization. IVC was probably more spread out than earlier thought.

Interesting map, one of my friends, a tareen pathan/pashtun, is from sibbi balochistan but says that they speak sindhi language as their mother tongue and they co-inhabit sibbi with some baloch tribes who probably also peak sindhi or balochi. I found it really interesting that sindhi language was spoken that deep in balochistan right in sibbi district which is quite far away from balochistan's border with sindh.

Lasbela is ethnically and linguistically Sindhi and I think the Jaam family is Samma. Interestingly, the title of "Jaam sahib" is used by the Jadeja rajputs of Kutch and Gujarat too.

I also read somewhere that Saraiki is spoken as far as Kandahar, where it is called "Jataki". In Afghanistan, the doom-gypsy are called "Jat" according to what I read online. Interesting stuff really.

 

[Sam_Bajwa]

I saw under the profile of one of haryana jat that he was khokhar from his maternal side, so it seems like there are supposedly some khokhars even among hindi speaking jats of haryana.

Brother people who came to the indian side started assimilating with the locals shortly I had bhramin , jat and rajput friends whose grandparent's came from pakistan but now they were marrying with their local counterparts .
Though most of them have lost their punjabi identity .

Well a lot of Mussalis and Tarkhaans claim to be Khokhars too. The real Khokhars are found in Pind Dadan Khan and Jhang, where they had their own jagirs. In Pind Dadan Khan, the Khokhars are called "Raja" and considered rajput. In the past, they had some heavy fighting with the local Janjuas in that region. In Jhang, they're called Rana I think.

And the Bhatti jatts are only found in Gujranwala I think. In the rest of Punjab, they're called Rajputs. Most real Bhattis are divided into their sub-castes any way like Noons, Manj, Wattoo etc. In my hometown, if you ask locals about who the Bhatti are, they say that they(bhatti) are mussali lol, as the local mussalis claim a Bhatti origin. Many christians of Sialkot also claim to be either Bhatti or Gill. And I thought Raheel was a Chib. I didn't know he was a Bhatti.



The surname Khokhar is found in Sindh and Kashmir too. Many places got their names from the Khokhars, like Khokhrapar in Sindh. I know that they were originally from the Salt range, but later spread throughout the North India as they were quite savage. I recently read that their capital city during the Delhi sultanate was called Baniyan. I wonder where it is now. Must be a really interesting place. They're a very interesting people to me for they gave much trouble to the Delhi Sultanate. They also acompolished what many other South Asian races couldn't; assassinating a foreign invader. Muhammad Ghauri being the unfortunate one in this case.

At my native place we have bhatti jats who came from multan .

 

[Charon 2]

Yes it is surprising that though they inhabit an area very close to mongoloid people they have managed to preserve their genetic heritage over the millennia which is remarkable, I was actually expecting them to have mongoloid influence though less than the regualr tajiks of tajikistan, their genetic results have indeed surprised me a lot.
Never the less the pamiri tajiks culture is totally different than that of pashtuns of afghanistan despite the two groups having same ancient east-iranic linguistic and genetic heritage. Pamiri tajiks of badakhshan prefer persian/dari language over their ancient east iranic dialects. Pamiri tajiks are culturally far more closer to people of chitral, hunza and gilgit in northern pakistan than they are to pashtuns or other afghani groups.

Those who don't know who pamiri tajiks of afghanistan are or how they look like can have an idea of them from the following music videos from badakhshan and ishkisham area of north east afghanistan. The music artists and singers in the following videos are all from badakhshan Pamir afghanistan.

After modern genetic findings the importance of historical and mythological origins has greatly decreased because genetics is science and exactly tells you who is who and with whom is he related to not only at this point in time but also ancient relationship with other populations. So the genetics has debunked the theory of ghilzais having anything to do with turkic people of central asia, I will take genetics on history or mythology books on any day.

A Turkic gene doesn't exist.

Samandri, here I have a PCA DNA plot of people from Afghanistan and other Central Asians. This shows how genetically close the populations are from each other



Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Afghan mega-paper (Di Cristofaro et al.)

Interesting how close Tajiks and Turkmens cluster with each other while Pashtuns from Pakistan cluster rather with the people from the Indus Basin than with other Central Asians.

Hazaras aren't also pure Mongols like many of us have asumed it. Interestingly they seem to be quite mixed and they cluster closest with Turkic Uyghurs. In fact Turkic Kazakhs and Kyrygz are genetically closer to Mongolians than Hazaras lol

 

[Samandri]

Balban and Afghans

Slavery and South Asian History edited by Indrani Chatterjee, Richard M. Eaton


Al-Hind: The Slavic Kings and the Islamic conquest, 11th-13th centuries By André Wink

@Jaggu, @Shahmir @save_ghenda @ghoul

 

[Samandri]

Beautiful Naukuchiatal, Kumaon himalayas, where battle of barachori was fought between Kumaoni forces and Afghans (Rohillas).
http://www.thehindu.com/features/me...w&tbm=nws&gws_rd=cr&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=rohillas

 

[Progressive1]

very informative thread

 

[Kabira]

Oh really? Then they must be Bhatti. Chibs use Raja as surname. And btw I just found out that Pakistan's worst and most reckless terrorist, Ilyas Kashmiri was a Chib. They make very daring warriors.

lly.

He just seem to be punjabi rajput, bhattis use bhatti surname no matter if they claim jatt or rajput. And yes you are right, Chib in Kharian tehsil use raja surname so he can't be chib.

 

[Kabira]

A Turkic gene doesn't exist.

Samandri, here I have a PCA DNA plot of people from Afghanistan and other Central Asians. This shows how genetically close the populations are from each other

View attachment 67732

Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Afghan mega-paper (Di Cristofaro et al.)

Interesting how close Tajiks and Turkmens cluster with each other while Pashtuns from Pakistan cluster rather with the people from the Indus Basin than with other Central Asians.

Hazaras aren't also pure Mongols like many of us have asumed it. Interestingly they seem to be quite mixed and they cluster closest with Turkic Uyghurs. In fact Turkic Kazakhs and Kyrygz are genetically closer to Mongolians than Hazaras lol

I think it was pretty well known that Hazara are not pure mongloid people. Trained eye can see that in phenotype, they don't really look like east asians.

 

[Shahmir]

He just seem to be punjabi rajput, bhattis use bhatti surname no matter if they claim jatt or rajput. And yes you are right, Chib in Kharian tehsil use raja surname so he can't be chib.

He could very well be bhatti who just does not use his tribe/biradari name as part of his official name. I also don't use my tribe/biradari name as part of my official name and so do almost 70 % of pakistanis around me, sometimes parents don't add the surname with their children names in the official documents for the sake of anonymity, perhaps due to reason that you never know who is allergic from your tribe or ethnic background which will be disclosed all the time if you have your tribe/biradari name as part of your official name. Now it is another thing that curious people will get to know your tribe/biradari once they get comfortable with you.
I have noticed that these days it is considered kind of offensive or tabu to ask someone's biradari in younger generations, I for example don't know the biradaries of most of my young pakistani student friends in germany because they never discuss such things whereas in my childhood we used to know each and everyone's biradari around us.

 

[Kabira]

He could very well be bhatti who just does not use his tribe/biradari name as part of his official name. I also don't use my tribe/biradari name as part of my official name and so do almost 70 % of pakistanis around me, sometimes parents don't add the surname with their children names in the official documents for the sake of anonymity, perhaps due to reason that you never know who is allergic from your tribe or ethnic background which will be disclosed all the time if you have your tribe/biradari name as part of your official name. Now it is another thing that curious people will get to know your tribe/biradari once they get comfortable with you.
I have noticed that these days it is considered kind of offensive or tabu to ask someone's biradari in younger generations, I for example don't know the biradaries of most of my young pakistani student friends in germany because they never discuss such things whereas in my childhood we used to know each and everyone's biradari around us.

But Raheel family uses Rana surname instead of bhatti. But its also possible that he is bhatti. I only now knows my school day friends biraderi after learning what surname belong to which biraderi.

 

[Shahmir]

But Raheel family uses Rana surname instead of bhatti. But its also possible that he is bhatti. I only now knows my school day friends biraderi after learning what surname belong to which biraderi.

Yes it is funny, I still remember the day in 80s when I was in primary school and that one of my friends in school told me that he is "Arain" by caste/biradari and my child brain was like what is this caste/biradari thing, the first thing that I asked my mother after returning from the school on that day was that what is this caste/biradari thing my friend was talking about in the school and what is our caste/biradari and I still remember my mother told me that we are "kashmiri" by caste/tribe, I took it just like a biradari name and for years had no idea that it was derived from a geographical place in the north of punjab.