Historical evidences for engagement of Islamic scholars by the government after Pakistan was founded and while Jinnah was alive

[SoulSpokesman]

@M. Sarmad @Joe Shearer

I will be more than happy to connect Sarmad bhai to Yasser (provided the latter is agreeable) if he is kind enough to share his email id with me.

Regards

 

[M. Sarmad]

Hazrat iqra your own post

Hazrat, I said: "Religion was not the primary factor behind the voting patterns at that time", nowhere did I say that"Religion had no role to play"... Try again

 

[El Sidd]

Hazrat, I said: "Religion was not the primary factor behind the voting patterns at that time", nowhere did I say that"Religion had no role to play"... Try again

Try again what? You think modern day KP works any differently than British NWFP?

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Joe Shearer @Ssan

Ishtiaq Lahori Sb has also replied, though his reply wasn't very useful. He wrote:

"You read my Jinnah book, the reference is given there."

I obtained a copy of Ishtiaq Sb's book, "Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History," and on page 473, he references the same article by Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa from The Friday Times that we previously discussed. Ishtiaq Sb mentions that Dr. Ayesha was kind enough to share with him the original note of the UK high commissioner, which is archived at Kew Gardens under file number DO 142/476.

So, it can be concluded that Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa is the main source of this claim.

It doesn't seem like we'll make any progress by reaching out to the authors who are being evasive. So, to settle this debate once and for all, I have requested a copy directly from the British National Archives. They have said it will take about two weeks until June 20th to get the copy sent to us.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer @Ssan

Ishtiaq Lahori Sb has also replied, though his reply wasn't very useful. He wrote:

"You read my Jinnah book, the reference is given there."

I obtained a copy of Ishtiaq Sb's book, "Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History," and on page 473, he references the same article by Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa from The Friday Times that we previously discussed. Ishtiaq Sb mentions that Dr. Ayesha was kind enough to share with him the original note of the UK high commissioner, which is archived at Kew Gardens under file number DO 142/476. What is interesting, however, is that Ishtiaq Sb attributes the content of the letter not to Dr. Ayesha herself, but to "Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity: The Search for Saladin," a book I went through, but couldn't find any mention of the alleged letter. However, the author of the book, Akbar S Ahmad, does mention Jinnah's meeting with Al-Banna. I have also brought this apparent mistake to Ishtiaq Lahori Sahib's attention, let's see if he responds.

It doesn't seem like we'll make any progress by reaching out to the authors who are being evasive. So, to settle this debate once and for all, I have requested a copy directly from the British National Archives. They have said it will take about two weeks until June 20th to get the copy sent to us.

Meanwhile, YLH is at your doorstep, and any time you want to summon his detailed knowledge of the great man, you know the single, simple step that is needed.

@Ssan

Needless to add, consulting YLH is freely open to you at any time. You have to send your desired e-mail to our member, @SoulSpokesman, who is very close to him.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Meanwhile, YLH is at your doorstep, and any time you want to summon his detailed knowledge of the great man, you know the single, simple step that is needed.

@Ssan

Needless to add, consulting YLH is freely open to you at any time. You have to send your desired e-mail to our member, @SoulSpokesman, who is very close to him.

That would be highly appreciated. I have already shared my email address with @SoulSpokesman on his profile page for further communication.

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Joe Shearer

I made a mistake on my part. The only source cited by Ishtiaq Lahori Sb in reference to this letter is actually Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa and her article published in the Friday Times in 2017.

But now we know that Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa is the main source of this claim.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

I made a mistake on my part. The only source cited by Ishtiaq Lahori Sb in reference to this letter is actually Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa and her article published in the Friday Times in 2017.

But now we know that Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa is the main source of this claim.

I agree with the tendency of your remark.

If it had been the other Ayesha-ji, Dr. Ayesha Jalal, that would have been several times more weighty, in keeping with the relative standing of the two learned people.

Point taken, but as a courtesy to @Ssan , I hope we can stay with this a little longer.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I agree with the tendency of your remark.

If it had been the other Ayesha-ji, Dr. Ayesha Jalal, that would have been several times more weighty, in keeping with the relative standing of the two learned people.

Point taken, but as a courtesy to @Ssan , I hope we can stay with this a little longer.

Indeed, sir, we should await a response from the record copying team at the British National Archives before reaching a final conclusion on this matter. So far, what we know is that Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa published an article in April 2017 in the weekly publication, The Friday Times, where she asserted that Jinnah wrote a letter to Hassan Al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, in January 1948. In this letter, Jinnah supposedly requested Islamic scholars from the Muslim Brotherhood to come to Pakistan and assist in establishing an Islamic state.

Ishtiaq Lahori, in his 2020 book titled "Jinnah - His Successes, Failures and Role in History," referenced Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa's claim and mentioned that she personally provided him with a copy of the original note on the letter. This note was sent by the then UK High Commissioner from Karachi to London in March 1948 and is archived in the Kew Gardens under file No Do 142/476. I think the document we have in the National Archives is the note sent by the British diplomat, not the letter itself. However, we should wait for the National Archives record copying team, whom I have contacted, to verify this.

Yasser Latif Hamdani, an authoritative figure on Jinnah studies endorsed by the esteemed Ayesha Jalal herself, has challenged Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa multiple times through direct tweets and published articles, requesting her to provide evidence supporting the authenticity of the alleged contents of the letter mentioned in her 2017 article. Unfortunately, Dr. Ayesha has not responded

Thanks to @Ssan Sahib's persistent insistence, we find ourselves discussing the purported letter here on PDF. All the individuals mentioned above have been contacted, and soon we will ascertain whether such a letter exists and if it contains the attributed statements by Jinnah. If the letter is not found in the British Archives, we can confidently dismiss it. However, if it does exist, we can proceed with further debate on the subject.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indeed, sir, we should await a response from the record copying team at the British National Archives before reaching a final conclusion on this matter. So far, what we know is that Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa published an article in April 2017 in the weekly publication, The Friday Times, where she asserted that Jinnah wrote a letter to Hassan Al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, in January 1948. In this letter, Jinnah supposedly requested Islamic scholars from the Muslim Brotherhood to come to Pakistan and assist in establishing an Islamic state.

Ishtiaq Lahori, in his 2020 book titled "Jinnah - His Successes, Failures and Role in History," referenced Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa's claim and mentioned that she personally provided him with a copy of the original note on the letter. This note was sent by the then UK High Commissioner from Karachi to London in March 1948 and is archived in the Kew Gardens under file No Do 142/476. I think the document we have in the National Archives is the note sent by the British diplomat, not the letter itself. However, we should wait for the National Archives record copying team, whom I have contacted, to verify this.

We all owe you our thanks for the focussed attention you have given to the subject, and the illumination you have brought to the subject.

Yasser Latif Hamdani, an authoritative figure on Jinnah studies endorsed by the esteemed Ayesha Jalal herself, has challenged Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa multiple times through direct tweets and published articles, requesting her to provide evidence supporting the authenticity of the alleged contents of the letter mentioned in her 2017 article. Unfortunately, Dr. Ayesha has not responded

Thanks to @Ssan Sahib's persistent insistence, we find ourselves discussing the purported letter here on PDF. All the individuals mentioned above have been contacted, and soon we will ascertain whether such a letter exists and if it contains the attributed statements by Jinnah. If the letter is not found in the British Archives, we can confidently dismiss it. However, if it does exist, we can proceed with further debate on the subject.

A very summing up of the current state of play, if a mildly facetious phrase may be permitted.

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Ssan @Joe Shearer

I got a response from the record copying team at the National Archives about my request regarding a copy of Jinnah's supposed letter to Hassan Al Banna, which was said to be in their archives. Regrettably, they have conveyed that they don't have any record of such a letter. They have further suggested that if I am seeking specific fragments of information that might be dispersed throughout various documents, I am welcome to visit the national archives in order to personally examine the original records at no cost.

However, I believe that such a visit to the national archives won't be necessary, as our discussion revolved around the presence or absence of the letter in the British National archives, and it has been confirmed that no such letter exists. Any information provided by British staff in Cairo regarding Jinnah's relationship with Hassan al Banna, or the perspectives of British diplomats in Pakistan, are irrelevant in this context.

 

[Ssan]

@Ssan @Joe Shearer

I got a response from the record copying team at the National Archives about my request regarding a copy of Jinnah's supposed letter to Hassan Al Banna, which was said to be in their archives. Regrettably, they have conveyed that they don't have any record of such a letter. They have further suggested that if I am seeking specific fragments of information that might be dispersed throughout various documents, I am welcome to visit the national archives in order to personally examine the original records at no cost.

However, I believe that such a visit to the national archives won't be necessary, as our discussion revolved around the presence or absence of the letter in the British National archives, and it has been confirmed that no such letter exists. Any information provided by British staff in Cairo regarding Jinnah's relationship with Hassan al Banna, or the perspectives of British diplomats in Pakistan, are irrelevant in this context.

I am actually happy that you posted this- was waiting for you to say so indeed! Because now that you have done so, you are exposed to the readers here.

What the lot of you have done here is nothing but gaslight without reason or intelligence. One of four things is true in this case:-
1) Ayesha Siddiqa and Dr Ishtiaq have got it wrong
2) you have got it wrong because you lack the competence to get things from archives
3) you have the competence to do so but bad intentions
4) you may have competence and good intentions but your worldview is so warped that you can’t process things appropriately.

I can confirm for you that it is not 1- as I do have a copy of the letter myself.

I will post it shortly. I am still waiting on rights to do so shortly.

We all owe you our thanks for the focussed attention you have given to the subject, and the illumination you have brought to the subject.


A very summing up of the current state of play, if a mildly facetious phrase may be permitted.

Very disappointed in this commentary. First of all, that Ayesha Siddiqa does or does not engage YLH is of little concern or relevance. The only relevant question is whether she is competent enough to transcribe or translate something from the archives. I am glad that Sarmad made the claim that she isn’t. But it’s frankly irrelevant as we have a digital copy of the letter now and I will post it shortly.

In any case, I gave plenty of latitude to y’all to get this right. I have no actual interest in Ayesha Siddiqa, Dr Ishtiaq or Ayesha Jalal. I disagree with all of them. But it is one thing to disagree with someone and another entirely to think that they are so incompetent or malicious so as to transcribe something wrong.

 

[Ssan]

Second that Ayesha Jalal approves of YLH is of no consequence/ it does not make him an expert on anything. Even if he was an expert on the Jinnah letters, that would be irrelevant as this isn’t from the Jinnah letters. This is from a spy who was intercepting communication between Jinnah and Hassan Al Banna and translating (which would mean translate for Banna and transcribe for Jinnah) some portion of it.

The cable from foreign office sent to HC is dated from March 1948. The letter itself January 1948.

That YLH (not even an historian) or some other secular minded historian believes something about this is irrelevant. The very people whose job it was to verify this information did and the document in question makes reference to this document several times as verified.

Forgive me for saying so, the British spies have much more credibility in this regard. They were there in 1948. They had the best spies. And they had zero interest in this dialectic we are taking part of regarding whether Jinnah was secular or Islamist. The proof of that is that this communique was classified for decades until recently.

Additionally, it’s not like this worldview has not existed prior to this. There have been several claims of people that talk about Jinnah informing them of their intentions in this regard. Our secular friends have always been making comments casting aspersions on these people. Well, so sorry but you are unable to do so here. The British have no care about these matters.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I can confirm for you that it is not 1- as I do have a copy of the letter myself.

That's the only thing that actually matters, everything else you wrote is just the usual nonsense you routinely post

Please provide the letter itself or provide the precise reference or file number where we can locate and access the letter. If the record copying team at the National Archives is to be trusted, the alleged letter is not archived under file number DO 142/476 at Kew Gardens, as stated in OP.

If you are unable to fulfill either of these requests, then we can consider this discussion concluded.

 

[M. Sarmad]

... This is from a spy who was intercepting communication between Jinnah and Hassan Al Banna and translating (which would mean translate for Banna and transcribe for Jinnah) some portion of it.

So, you acknowledge that the document in question is not the original letter itself, but rather an interpretation derived from the ongoing communication between Hassan el-Banna and the Pakistani government by a spy !! And you're acting like this interpretation is the ultimate truth just because it aligns with what you already believed, as if all British spies are these infallible truth-tellers.!!?