Hindutva:The Primer, from a Hindu Nationalist

[Naofumi]

I think you would have to be willingly blind not to see that there is a healthy undercurrent of vigrous cultural asssertivism even in nations like Germany, which are supposed to writhe in post-WW2 contrition...

I don't think any of that counts as "Chauvinism", and you're a fan of Akhand Bharat too?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I don't think any of that counts as "Chauvinism", and you're a fan of Akhand Bharat too?

Sure, but barely a degree seperated from it....

Akhand Bharat has not been a reality for 2,200 years...and to be fair everything west of Chenab was forfeited by the Indic civilization at the Battle of the Ten Kings ...I wish we had gotten around 20k-to 50k sq kms more land in the Partition, but the Partition lines are 98-99 percent correct......Indic empires would max out their capacity of expansion by the time they would be at Sialkot..That has been consistently the case since the rise of the Guptas

 

[Naofumi]

Sure, but barely a degree seperated from it....

I never visited Germany but do any mainstream politician wants the Prussian lands back from Russia and Poland? Or Alsace from France? RW populism in Germany seems to be a Neo-Nazi type reaction to the migrant and debt crisis, nothing less nothing more. Plus you bypassed other examples like South Korea.

Sure, but barely a degree seperated from it....

Akhand Bharat has not been a reality for 2,200 years...and to be fair everything west of Chenab was forfeited by the Indic civilization at the Battle of the Ten Kings ...I wish we had gotten around 20k-to 50k sq kms more land in the Partition, but the Partition lines are 98-99 percent correct......Indic empires would reach the maximum capacity of expansion by the time they would be at Sialkot..That has been consistently the case since the rise of the Guptas

What you're doing is historical revisionism, South India was separated from the rest for longer periods of time. Heck, even Brahmins of these regions were imported from the North - so was Hinduism; same is the case of Bengal and generally everywhere outside Hindi belt/NW India. So, should South be separated too? If not how it differentiates from Indonesia and other regions who imported Hinduism too?

And why Indian Nationalism need to be built around Hinduism? Why can't it be around multicultural philosophy?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I never visited Germany but do any mainstream politician wants the Prussian lands back from Russia and Poland? Or Alsace from France? RW populism in Germany seems to be a Neo-Nazi type reaction to the migrant and debt crisis, nothing less nothing more. Plus you bypassed other examples like South Korea.

What you're doing is historical revisionism, South India was separated from the rest for longer periods of time. Heck, even Brahmins of these regions were imported from the North - so was Hinduism; same is the case of Bengal and generally everywhere outside Hindi belt/NW India. So, should South be separated too? If not how it differentiates from Indonesia and other regions who imported Hinduism too?

And why Indian Nationalism need to be built around Hinduism? Why can't it be around multicultural philosophy?

Germany is a country that houses 50,000 troops of a foreign nation..I donot think it can have any overt irredentist ambitions..The only way for Germany to project itself as a superpower is through EU, which it does through leadership of the said organization. That is precisely the reason Britain walked out of EU, as it was uncomfortable with playing second fiddle to Germany......

regarding Korea, I think before the Joseon Dynasty Korea was always divided into North and South..perhaps the present situation is a reversion to the more ancient state? I tend to believe that we tend to run on geopoltical grooves, and certain recurrences are bound to crop up every now and then


No Indian Nationalism doesnot need to be based on Brahmanism, but it will always be based around certain forms of Indicism...But if you think that there can be a better way to forge a new type of Indian nationalism, I am more than ready to hear it..though I disagree with more than half of what you write, you are still offer a thoughtful and plesant read

 

[Naofumi]

Germany is a country that houses 50,000 troops of a foreign nation..I donot think it can have any overt irredentist ambitions..The only way for Germany to project itself as a superpower is through EU, which it does through leadership of the said organization. That is precisely the reason Britain walked out of EU, as it was uncomfortable with playing second fiddle to Germany......

A chauvinistic country should be ashamed to house foreign troops.

regarding Korea, I think before the Joseon Dynasty Korea was always divided into North and South..perhaps the present situation is a reversion to the more ancient state?

The pre-Josean period was still of a unified Goryeo, and pre-Goryeo period was of Three Kingdom period, that too was not a North-South divide in any sense (google the maps).

I tend to believe that we tend to run on geopoltical grooves, and certain recurrences are bound to crop up every now and then

I believe world is random with some very lose continuations like languages but even that is malleable - Levantines are speaking Arabic, not the language of their forefathers (Syriac, Aramaic etc), similarly Brahmins of different regions have assimilated to the native cultures.

But if you think that there can be a better way to forge a new type of Indian nationalism, I am more than ready to hear it

There are examples around the world - Canadian nationalism which incorporates both English and French speaking people, Swiss nationalism which incorporates German, French and even Italians, Lebanese nationalism which incorporates a diverse people both in ethnicity and religious beliefs, even South Korea have both Christianity and Buddhism without affecting any "nationalistic" Korean.

though I disagree with more than half of what you write

I think I write facts that are true to the best of my knowledge, you can correct me of course.

you are still offer a thoughtful and plesant read

My pleasure.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

A chauvinistic country should be ashamed to house foreign troops.

The pre-Josean period was still of a unified Goryeo, and pre-Goryeo period was of Three Kingdom period, that too was not a North-South divide in any sense (google the maps).

I believe world is random with some very lose continuations like languages but even that is malleable - Levantines are speaking Arabic, not the language of their forefathers (Syriac, Aramaic etc), similarly Brahmins of different regions have assimilated to the native cultures.

There are examples around the world - Canadian nationalism which incorporates both English and French speaking people, Swiss nationalism which incorporates German, French and even Italians, Lebanese nationalism which incorporates a diverse people both in ethnicity and religious beliefs, even South Korea have both Christianity and Buddhism without affecting any "nationalistic" Korean.

I think I write facts that are true to the best of my knowledge, you can correct me of course.

My pleasure.

good response

Yeah you are right regarding Korea

Canadian Nationalism------------>already there in India , we include all ethnic and lingual divisions
Swiss-------------------------------->same as above
Lebanon--------------------------->very very bad example
South Korea--------------------->same thing could have worked out in the Indian context, if Punjab and Bengal were not partitioned..(since all of them are the case of same ethno-linguist group having different religions..moreover in Korea it still works because a majority of Koreans are apatheists, irreligious)

That said the Korean model with some modification can be moved over into Indian context...Allow people to officially identify themselves as Hindu atheists or Muslim atheists..That way it won't be seen that they are rejecting their ancestors, culture, their communities' sense of right and wrong..They would only be differing on doctrinal basis ...30 years as such and the next generation will be comfortable in identifying as atheists without any socioreligious qualifier. A critical mass of Indians moving over to atheism on their own would be critical for us to graduate to a middle income level

 

[Naofumi]

good response

Yeah you are right regarding Korea

Canadian Nationalism------------>already there in India , we include all ethnic and lingual divisions
Swiss-------------------------------->same as above
Lebanon--------------------------->very very bad example
South Korea--------------------->same thing could have worked out in the Indian context, if Punjab and Bengal were not partitioned..(since all of them are the case of same ethno-linguist group having different religions..moreover in Korea it still works because a majority of Koreans are apatheists, irreligious)

My point was that Hindutva is explicitly exclusive to Muslims which is not a necessity for nationalism, I too feel bad about partition and in my opinion it was a net loss for whole of the sub-continent.

That said the Korean model with some modification can be moved over into Indian context...Allow people to officially identify themselves as Hindu atheists or Muslim atheists..That way it won't be seen that they are rejecting their ancestors, culture, their communities' sense of right and wrong..They would only be differing on doctrinal basis ...30 years as such and the next generation will be comfortable in identifying as atheists without any socioreligious qualifier. A critical mass of Indians moving over to atheism on their own would be critical for us to graduate to a middle income level

High HDI is a prerequisite for people to become materialists over fundamentalists, India needs aggressive development and reforms, people will themselves forget these caste/religion differences.

 

[Naofumi]

@dharmi If you want to debate on Hindutva then proceed on this conversation.

Dead wrong on Hindutva, here are my arguments against it :-

1) Not every person in a civilisation is same, especially Indian civilisation was always a caste based civilisation, why should a shudra feel proud of ancient India when all he got was humiliation and inequality for more than 5,000 years? Not only this, the genetic structure is fundamentally different between castes with Brahmins having a high amount of ANI and untouchables being a proxy for Dravidians; others being in between.

2) Your ideology Indicism is very recent and is akin to claiming likes of Al-Ma'arri, Al-Hallaj as part of Islamic civilisation which I see as nothing but historical revisionism - the only Savarkar was good at. More on this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1253548773042774017

3) Can I consider Asaram's cult a part of the Indic civilisation and thus superior to any other philosophy/religion/culture? You see, what you're propagating is cultural chauvinism which refuses to look into merit of ideas but stick to only chauvistic attitude about nativism.