Hindutva and Zionism hurdles to peace and democracy: Scholars

[Yeti]

Whatever the truth is about his involvement with Gujarat - i agree - it will be a sticking point for his future. I agree he wont make PM because of what happened.

If we put the Gujarat riots aside and just focus on what he has achieved for his own state Gujarat on the economic front and if he could mirror that for India as a whole in my book that would be a blessing.

(Guys will be on later to debate more must dash now)

 

[fd24]

Yep but if we took the Gujarat riots aside actually if you see what he did for his state Gujarat on the economic front and if he could do the same for India as a whole it would not be such a bad thing in my book.

I dont disagree with you - however there is a cloud of uncertainty hanging over him. He should have handled it better - i think we all agree.

 

[lem34]

L
I m not boasting but can prove here on this pdf that true hinduism is the best thing we have in this world/// and challenge anyone to have a rationale and genuine discussion...

Ok start a thread and prove to me here on PDF???

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Even one of our best PM's Vajpayee was a member of the Rss and he was a poet not a terrorist

Fair point then what do you say to Indian members who say its goondas etc

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

Oh? Even the JuD helped Pakistan's flood and earthquake victims. Then why are you bashing the Pakistanis for not screwing them and failing to arrest the JuD chief? But you still call it a terrorist organization? Why? They have provided more aid and succor than the Pakistani Govt itself. So why are you going hammer and tongs after them?

Just because an organization helps flood victims and provides aid doesn't make it God's own enterprise. Even the Devil wears Prada, a facade to try and prove its non existent holier-than-thou ideology!

What double standards! Shame! Jeeeez!

This is what I cant understand OriOn and Yeti both Indian both normally on the same page but disagree big time on hindutvA

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

Basically India has seen too many invasions,too many case of history being burnt down,books destroyed and deliberate efforts to create a cultural inferiorness all the time.

This movement is there to unite hindus and collectivize them.

What about India's claim to secularism then? what happens to none Hindu Muslims??

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

Again, as I pointed out earlier, do not go for comparisons. I will restate the weakest point in my argument again. If he does not want to apologise fine. Why does Modi not express regret for the killings? He will express regret and condolences for people killed in Mumbai but not in his state, why?

Is it cos the majority killed are Muslims?

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

People comparing RSS with LeT are dangerously ignorant not just about RSS or LeT ,but about India itself.

I think its unfair to say that as you see there are some that want to do more than pay lip service to secularism.

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------

Apparently you dont even need to deny your faith. If you are cool with calling youself a Hindu they will accept you. You can still be a Muslim.

Yea but why should anyone have to hide what their beliefs are??

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Yep but if we took the Gujarat riots aside actually if you see what he did for his state Gujarat on the economic front and if he could do the same for India as a whole it would not be such a bad thing in my book.

But mate you could say the same about Hitler if we exclude what he did to the Jews he was good for Germany???

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Not only are Hindutva and Zionism major obstacles to peace, the inability to recognize these facts are also major roadblocks in the path leading to peace.

 

[Subramanian]

India is inherently secular enough man,even today regardless of what people say or feel,Desis remain Desis,even those from KPK.

Language,Customs,Cuisine etc are all the same.Today we live in a world where Germany,France and Spain have started thinking beyond blonde hair and grilled ham and choose to be together.

coming to the issue of Muslims in India,there is enough bad blood but lot of water has passed under the bridge now.

The issue is the most affected people here are the schedule caste or the people who the working class who exists whether as hindus/christians/muslims.

SC/St hindus take up reservation and work and study and do better.SC christians also can get reservation but they get better education in their english medium schools and go onto earn a slightly decent livelihood and exceptions obviously make it big in any field.

SC muslims still toil in the fields,go to work in the gulf as working class people,badly exploited,or live in rural india as farm labourers or small time farmers at best.

The elite classes whether the General Category or the OBCs are fine,there are muslims and christians in them too.

Basically the caste never goes,only the exceptional people or above average performers get to marry across caste lines.

The logic is very simple here, for example an upper caste guy/girl say they see two people,one upper caste person who is economically much weaker and a SC performer who is slightly weaker,at par or perhaps even stronger.Then he/she ll choose the latter.

so thats the scene,regarding cultural conflicts lot of them do exist.But these days in the cities,it is all in the apartments.people exists inside that apartment and dont care what their neighbours cook or eat or do.So,if my muslim neighbour is eating beef,it wouldn't be a big deal.This is my generation,people in their 20s,my parents obviously are not that cool but i guess states like Kerala/Bengal/Goa are an exception to this.

The places most against beef are pretty much the rest of them but the muslims are so closely integrated with the hindus,most of them just eat mutton and not beef.even i have gone to muslim restaurants to have paya/mutton leg soup.

so,is not a big deal.These things are far less important now,whats more important is that people have economic security and education and standard of living more than anything else.

PS: One huge thing u r missing is that Jews were not an aggressive cult which dominated the native germans,but Hitler still went on to fight.

 

[Subramanian]

Not only are Hindutva and Zionism major obstacles to peace, the inability to recognize these facts are also major roadblocks in the path leading to peace.

Hindutva and Zionism is the only reason there is peace in South Asia,else we would have all been washed in green paint.

 

[lem34]

Hindutva and Zionism is the only reason there is peace in South Asia,else we would have all been washed in green paint.

Not according to some Indian Hindus?? Go read earlier you don't seem to be speaking for the majority I would say. You cant be secular and follow the philosophy of Hindutva from what I have read on this thread

 

[Subramanian]

Not according to some Indian Hindus?? Go read earlier you don't seem to be speaking for the majority I would say. You cant be secular and follow the philosophy of Hindutva from what I have read on this thread

u dont understand what hindutva means?It is a cultural affiliation,not a religious one.

Half of the arm chair experts here would have never gone an seen a rural place or the complicated religious/cultural loyalties there and many things here.

Hindutva is rather a reaction to the cultural assault of the Mughals and Catholic church upon India.Until sometime,we hindus didn't care about wearing our cultural symbols on our sleeves.we were,anyway i am a hindu,whats the need to show it?

But after someone comes to you n says,hey hindu,u r a kaffir,u r inferior,then we start thinking?who is this guy?what is he calling me?

Then we went defensive and explored our history,our past,our culture and our contemporay strengths,weaknesses,perceptions and everything.

Now we are much more assertive,we know the attitudes,tendencies of our neighbours and international players.so we know things better now.

Jaise kehte hain,padosi ke tante tigdum hote hain,toh khaas kar rehna hi padta hain.

 

[lem34]

u dont understand what hindutva means?It is a cultural affiliation,not a religious one.

.

Well there seems to be disagreement on that even among Indian Hindus on this thread.

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Half of the arm chair experts here would have never gone an seen a rural place or the complicated religious/cultural loyalties there and many things here.

That's just your way of saying you don't agree what others have stated and your way of chastising and dismissing others opinions

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

But after someone comes to you n says,hey hindu,u r a kaffir,u r inferior,then we start thinking?who is this guy?what is he calling me?

.

So are you saying that Hindutva is a reaction to perceived abuse your coreligionist have suffered?? Seems an odd justification you are abused so you abuse and use that as mitigation?

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Hindutva and Zionism is the only reason there is peace in South Asia,else we would have all been washed in green paint.

There is not much development nor a whole lot of stability or peace in South Asia. If you also think it's due to Hindutva and Zionism, then I do not blame you.

 

[lem34]

u dont understand what hindutva means?It is a cultural affiliation,not a religious one.

Half of the arm chair experts here would have never gone an seen a rural place or the complicated religious/cultural loyalties there and many things here.

Hindutva is rather a reaction to the cultural assault of the Mughals and Catholic church upon India.Until sometime,we hindus didn't care about wearing our cultural symbols on our sleeves.we were,anyway i am a hindu,whats the need to show it?

But after someone comes to you n says,hey hindu,u r a kaffir,u r inferior,then we start thinking?who is this guy?what is he calling me?

Then we went defensive and explored our history,our past,our culture and our contemporay strengths,weaknesses,perceptions and everything.

Now we are much more assertive,we know the attitudes,tendencies of our neighbours and international players.so we know things better now.

Jaise kehte hain,padosi ke tante tigdum hote hain,toh khaas kar rehna hi padta hain.

All I want to say to you is that on the one side some Indian Hindus have argued that Hindutva is racist and obstacle. Others Indian Hindus have argued that it is patriotic and cursed the democratically elected leaders of India for as they see it pandering to minorities? I don't think Hindutva, secularism sit well together well with Democracy

 

[Yeti]

All I want to say to you is that on the one side some Indian Hindus have argued that Hindutva is racist and obstacle. Others Indian Hindus have argued that it is patriotic and cursed the democratically elected leaders of India for as they see it pandering to minorities? I don't think Hindutva, secularism sit well together well with Democracy

You are right that even among Hindus and Indians the view of RSS/MODI may differ like it did with me and OrionHunter but i still respect his opinion and we can agree to disagree on this one.

It is just my perception people see RSS as being thugs, ghoondas etc as OrionHunter put it but without taking into account the good things they do like removing caste discrimination, educating women and the backward people not to mention the flood relief work done in Leh and Tamil nadu.

 

[Yeti]

See Modi is a popular figure. The main point of regret is so that his followers and those who idolize him will know that Modi is sad that people got killed and so I should never harm anyone(not Hindu not Muslim). I certainly appreciate what he said there.

Intresting fact in the last state elections of Gujarat many muslims did vote for Modi there was even a picture of him with some muslim leaders which caused a stir due to him not accepting to wear something or other but i cant remember what it was now.

 

[Subramanian]

Well there seems to be disagreement on that even among Indian Hindus on this thread.

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------



That's just your way of saying you don't agree what others have stated and your way of chastising and dismissing others opinions

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------



So are you saying that Hindutva is a reaction to perceived abuse your coreligionist have suffered?? Seems an odd justification you are abused so you abuse and use that as mitigation?

No,what u say are facts and i see many such folks even today walking around in India thinking no end of themselves and glorifying their idealistic marxist textbooks.I dont give 2 hoots about their ignorance,god save them when reality strikes them hard and fast.

I am trying hard to be the shepherd but these morons ll just make me be the tyanny of evil men.

Hindutva is a reaction to how and what Hindus perceive of themselves.We are an inward looking culture and hence,we ll only bothered about how we are.we dont really care as to how many people in the world agree with it.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

There is not much development nor a whole lot of stability or peace in South Asia. If you also think it's due to Hindutva and Zionism, then I do not blame you.

well there is development,where there is hindutva.for sure.it only aids the development and not impedes it.

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

All I want to say to you is that on the one side some Indian Hindus have argued that Hindutva is racist and obstacle. Others Indian Hindus have argued that it is patriotic and cursed the democratically elected leaders of India for as they see it pandering to minorities? I don't think Hindutva, secularism sit well together well with Democracy

Everything sits fine in a democracy,especially a multicultural one as long as the people have patience.Hindutva is purely a reaction to the pseudo secular and unnecessary left liberal policies of the Congress and the day dreaming of the Indian communists.

I ideally subscribe to a centrist view of the congress and at best a right-liberal view.But the congress is full too many corrupt crooks,that i have no choice but to back the BJP on whom i have a few differences.

 

[livingdead]

Hindutva ideology peaked in 90s and declined after destruction of babri masjid.
The chance of BJP coming back on hindutva is remote, even they know this.
Problem is people always look for alternative to congress, and BJP is the biggest beneficiary of that sentiment.