Hindus, Muslims should fight poverty, not each other: PM Narendra Modi

[Joe Shearer]

This is the future of India sometime after 2050

You dont worry ; you wont be around

Secularism is NOT permanent In India

When the NEXT constitution is written there would be changes

And the fight will begin from BENGAL and ASSAM
due to the increasingly adverse demographic ratio in these states

How stupid can you get? If you are right, and secularism is not permanent in India, there will be a generation that will conclude, sadly, that India was not permanent because it was not secular. Nothing can hold together the present India unless the massive Dalit under-section, the Muslims, the tribals and the other minorities, including the ethnic minorities decide to co-exist with the Hindu upper castes, who are, by themselves, and without the benefit of the numbers of the others, a minority.

What is the Indian Army without the Sikhs? What is the east without the Bengalis, the Assamese and the Nagas, the Mizos, the Manipuris, the Khasis and Jayanthias? You think you will hold all of these, and the Gorkha, and the tribal, and the Tamilian, under your khaki chaddis?

Think it through, before you open your mouth in future.

Thank you for your certificate. I will value this to the last day of my life.

@Spectre - I guess you have your answer now.

Please do not bother to thank me. The meaningless platitudes can be dispensed with. This is the real you, and I acknowledge that I was a naive idiot to think that you had a shred of decency within you. Whether you value this day or any other is of no interest to me.

 

[Spectre]

Thank you for your certificate. I will value this to the last day of my life.

@Spectre - I guess you have your answer now.

Sooner or later something has to break my friend, the fault lines in Indian society are crystal clear. One can't blame it all on Media @SarthakGanguly - I have seen the rising tide of hatred and polarization with my eyes.

This is not the sudden outburst of tensions due to some instigating events but it is the slow burning hatred which itself is instigating tensions. Large group of people secure in their invincibility now actively court communal disharmony.


I wish and pray that Narendra Damodardas Modi takes India back from the brink for he has such an ability given the respect he demands and passions he evokes among his supporters. He has to actively dowse fires Sarthak not just pay lip-service to his duty as premier of India. I will prostate myself infront of him, if he manages to unite rather than divide all of India.

He has to take inspiration from Vajpayee here.

 

[Sky lord]

This is the future of India sometime after 2050

You dont worry ; you wont be around

Secularism is NOT permanent In India

When the NEXT constitution is written there would be changes

And the fight will begin from BENGAL and ASSAM
due to the increasingly adverse demographic ratio in these states

Secularism just means separation of the church and the state. How is that a bad thing? The law can be influenced by the ethos of religion but do you really want to live in a country run by immutable divine law?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sooner or later something has to break my friend, the fault lines in Indian society are crystal clear. One can't blame it all on Media @SarthakGanguly - I have seen the rising tide of hatred and polarization with my eyes.

This is not the sudden outburst of tensions due to some instigating events but it is the slow burning hatred which itself is instigating tensions. Large group of people secure in their invincibility now actively court communal disharmony.

I wish and pray that Narendra Damodardas Modi takes India back from the brink for he has such an ability given the respect he demands and passions he evokes among his supporters. He has to actively dowse fires Sarthak not just pay lip-service to his duty as premier of India. I will myself prostate myself infront of him, he manages to unite rather than divide India.

I hope your wishes and prayers come true. I can't advise you to hold your breath, however.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Please do not bother to thank me. The meaningless platitudes can be dispensed with. This is the real you, and I acknowledge that I was a naive idiot to think that you had a shred of decency within you. Whether you value this day or any other is of no interest to me.

I am touched by your concern and passion. I really am.

I have been a Hindutvadi from day 1. I am the same today. All my previous POVs stand to this day. They remain consistent.

there will be a generation that will conclude, sadly, that India was not permanent because it was not secular.

@Spectre - This is the apocalyptic view that we have been hearing and will continue to hear for about a decade or so. The issues of disturbances are secondary. The main issue is a deep seated hatred for the

Hindu upper castes

...that comes naturally with the Left.


You can't blame young Indians who take offence to this today and express their disgust with the only medium that is easily available to them. The Internet.

The Nehruvian Secularism could have survived in India. I will list out the mistakes you did -

i. Lack of sufficient force - To impose something unnatural you needed force apart from the educational indoctrination (doctoring history books, whitewashing crimes of all etc)

ii. Lack of de-incentivizing Hinduism - Hinduism should have been more directly attacked. The mere weakening of the Hindus have only proved to be temporary. The temples should have been appropriated by the Government and worship prohibited. This should have applied to Hindu places of worship alone. The Govt only went so far as to take over the temples in general but other measures were never implemented.

iii. Encouraging conversion from Hinduism - Hinduism was vilified and made to look a disgusting ritualistic evil practice and many influential Hindus (by birth) were non practicing. But their attitude remained neutral to the faith itself. Hence their successors found great inspiration from their roots and found little inhibition from the home front. Religiosity has now seen a rise in India hence.

In short the attack against Hinduism should have been the central Schwerpunkt of Nehruvian secularism. Instead it fell short of it and made half measures here and there - doing little good to either Dharmics or to the anti Hindus.

 

[Sky lord]

Sooner or later something has to break my friend, the fault lines in Indian society are crystal clear. One can't blame it all on Media @SarthakGanguly - I have seen the rising tide of hatred and polarization with my eyes.

This is not the sudden outburst of tensions due to some instigating events but it is the slow burning hatred which itself is instigating tensions. Large group of people secure in their invincibility now actively court communal disharmony.


I wish and pray that Narendra Damodardas Modi takes India back from the brink for he has such an ability given the respect he demands and passions he evokes among his supporters. He has to actively dowse fires Sarthak not just pay lip-service to his duty as premier of India. I will myself prostate myself infront of him, if he manages to unite rather than divide all of India.

He has to take inspiration from Vajpayee here.

I respect your opinion and would be interested to know why you think there is so much slow simmering hatred? It did not come out of nowhere. Large groups of people are not easily mobilized especially as for more than half a century we have had a left liberal press and education system....yet people are nurturing a huge sense of injustice....why?

i. Lack of sufficient force - To impose something unnatural you needed force apart from the educational indoctrination (doctoring history books, whitewashing crimes of all etc)

ii. Lack of de-incentivizing Hinduism - Hinduism should have been more directly attacked. The mere weakening of the Hindus have only proved to be temporary. The temples should have been appropriated by the Government and worship prohibited. This should have applied to Hindu places of worship alone. The Govt only went so far as to take over the temples in general but other measures were never implemented.

Perhaps this had to be done, in view of the massive blood shed at partition.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am touched by your concern and passion. I really am.

Just in case the message failed to reach, don't bother with the hypocrisy. It isn't going to work any more.

I have been a Hindutvadi from day 1. I am the same today. All my previous POVs stand to this day. They remain consistent.

Acknowledged.

That is why I am trying to apologise to @KingMamba. He spotted you way before I did this.

@Spectre - This is the apocalyptic view that we have been hearing and will continue to hear for about a decade or so. The issues of disturbances are secondary. The main issue is a deep seated hatred for the ...that comes naturally with the Left.

You have missed a promising career by a few short decades, if you had been born a century ago, you could have had a promising career in Roehm's Brown Shirts.

You can't blame young Indians who take offence to this today and express their disgust with the only medium that is easily available to them. The Internet.

The Nehruvian Secularism could have survived in India. I will list out the mistakes you did -

i. Lack of sufficient force - To impose something unnatural you needed force apart from the educational indoctrination (doctoring history books, whitewashing crimes of all etc)

It is educative to see that you have taken on board the precept "Practice what you preach".

ii. Lack of de-incentivizing Hinduism - Hinduism should have been more directly attacked. The mere weakening of the Hindus have only proved to be temporary. The temples should have been appropriated by the Government and worship prohibited. This should have applied to Hindu places of worship alone. The Govt only went so far as to take over the temples in general but other measures were never implemented.

What gives you the infantile notion that these outcomes were desirable? Besides an embarrassing amount of self-pity?

iii. Encouraging conversion from Hinduism - Hinduism was vilified and made to look a disgusting ritualistic evil practice and many influential Hindus (by birth) were non practicing. But their attitude remained neutral to the faith itself. Hence their successors found great inspiration from their roots and found little inhibition from the home front. Religiosity has now seen a rise in India hence.

In short the attack against Hinduism should have been the central Schwerpunkt of Nehruvian secularism. Instead it fell short of it and made half measures here and there - doing little good to either Dharmics or to the anti Hindus.

 

[Spectre]

I am touched by your concern and passion. I really am.

I have been a Hindutvadi from day 1. I am the same today. All my previous POVs stand to this day. They remain consistent.
@Spectre - This is the apocalyptic view that we have been hearing and will continue to hear for about a decade or so. The issues of disturbances are secondary. The main issue is a deep seated hatred for the ...that comes naturally with the Left.


You can't blame young Indians who take offence to this today and express their disgust with the only medium that is easily available to them. The Internet.

The Nehruvian Secularism could have survived in India. I will list out the mistakes you did -

i. Lack of sufficient force - To impose something unnatural you needed force apart from the educational indoctrination (doctoring history books, whitewashing crimes of all etc)

ii. Lack of de-incentivizing Hinduism - Hinduism should have been more directly attacked. The mere weakening of the Hindus have only proved to be temporary. The temples should have been appropriated by the Government and worship prohibited. This should have applied to Hindu places of worship alone. The Govt only went so far as to take over the temples in general but other measures were never implemented.

iii. Encouraging conversion from Hinduism - Hinduism was vilified and made to look a disgusting ritualistic evil practice and many influential Hindus (by birth) were non practicing. But their attitude remained neutral to the faith itself. Hence their successors found great inspiration from their roots and found little inhibition from the home front. Religiosity has now seen a rise in India hence.

In short the attack against Hinduism should have been the central Schwerpunkt of Nehruvian secularism. Instead it fell short of it and made half measures here and there - doing little good to either Dharmics or to the anti Hindus.

You know I have often agreed with you in the past as to why things are the way they are.

The course you advocate would be akin to open heart surgery without anesthesia in midst of a burning hospital with India as the unfortunate patient.

Why is religion so important, I could never understand - there are plenty of things to fight for but religion shouldn't be on the list. It has no tangible value.

Anyway good luck!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Why is religion so important, I could never understand - there are plenty of things to fight for but religion shouldn't be on the list. It has no tangible value.

Religion is Not important for Hindus
But the COUNTRY is the MOST important thing

This country is under threat from rising Muslim population
and the changing demographic balance

This problem will explode in future

There is a feeling amongst a section of the Muslim leadership
That INDIA can be grabbed

Already in Assam and Bengal we are seeing such tendencies

This problem will have to be fought ; no matter what

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Sooner or later something has to break my friend, the fault lines in Indian society are crystal clear. One can't blame it all on Media @SarthakGanguly - I have seen the rising tide of hatred and polarization with my eyes.

This is not the sudden outburst of tensions due to some instigating events but it is the slow burning hatred which itself is instigating tensions. Large group of people secure in their invincibility now actively court communal disharmony.

That is inevitable. Nehruvian secularism can win us a few more decades. Then there will be peace. Hindutva can win us the peace earlier with greater short term disturbance.

Besides, all of these - are YOUR opinions. Just as are mine.

You know I have often agreed with you in the past as to why things are the way they are.

The course you advocate would be akin to open heart surgery without anesthesia in midst of a burning hospital with India as the unfortunate patient.

Why is religion so important, I could never understand - there are plenty of things to fight for but religion shouldn't be on the list. It has no tangible value.

Anyway good luck!

Religion is NOT the issue. Bhagvd Gita is a book I have never read. My faith is independent of it. Or any scripture. But hard lines need to be taken. This is no time for weakness as per our POV. The consequences can only be delayed. Hindus are not fighting to impose Hinduism on the rest of the world. Just demanding a basic minimum respect in India.

Btw - you have at least got the crux of what I am saying here - the anecdote about the open heart surgery is a good one. Only that the heart is dangerously close to being infected by gangrene! The Nehruvian Secular medicine has been given 70 years to do its trick. How about give us 10?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That is inevitable. Nehruvian secularism can win us a few more decades

Only a few more decades

Then we will NOT be able to ignore the elephant in the room

 

[Spectre]

I hope your wishes and prayers come true. I can't advise you to hold your breath, however.

Well true, I may have spoken too soon - let the Bihar elections be over - if BJP wins then I will double down on my entreaties to Modi.

I respect your opinion and would be interested to know why you think there is so much slow simmering hatred? It did not come out of nowhere. Large groups of people are not easily mobilized especially as for more than half a century we have had a left liberal press and education system....yet people are nurturing a huge sense of injustice....why?

Muslim Leadership were appeased and are appeased still today (the common Muslim were ironically kept impoverished to ensure they remain a vote bank) , Hindus as a vote bank is too large to appeased generally and specifically only lower caste gets tangible benefits in terms of quota. A large section of Hindus like traders and others who are relatively well off as a community were not pandered to due to obvious reasons.

Some political and social parties fomented this hatred and sense of disenchantment. TLDR popular politics lead us to where we are today.

 

[Styx]

@Joe Shearer

sorry for the offtopic, but I'm interested in your views on how Modi and Erdogan stack up

big terror bomb in Ankara, a media ban, and everyone's talking about right wing "islamist" conservative Erdogan..

different countries, cultures, economy but still.... what do you make ?

@everyone else too, btw.. modi and erdogan, what you think ?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Well true, I may have spoken too soon - let the Bihar elections be over - if BJP wins then I will double down on my entreaties to Modi.

Even if it does not win ; BJP will be ENTRENCHED in Bihar Politics
as the primary pole ; the principal pole

This election is a watershed for BJP

Till now it was under the shadow of JDU

Now it is own its own

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Acknowledged

My 'About me' here in this forum has not been changed. It was and remains 'Just a friendly Hindutvavadi'. I have never claimed otherwise.

That is why I am trying to apologise to @KingMamba.

I like him. He is honest and minces no words - like me. We get along fine and both have a good taste in spirits.

You have missed a promising career by a few short decades, if you had been born a century ago, you could have had a promising career in Roehm's Brown Shirts.

I am too sophisticated for the Sturm Abteilung. The Ahnnerbe may be... but then I despise superiority based on race.

What gives you the infantile notion that these outcomes were desirable

It is relative sir. It is desirable if you wish to reinforce secularism as Nehru envisaged. Only if we all become Nehru like in our Hindu-ness can that be possible. The only way for doing that is to weaken Hinduism directly. That opportunity, thankfully (for us), is gone by now.

Well true, I may have spoken too soon - let the Bihar elections be over - if BJP wins then I will double down on my entreaties to Modi.

Not the right approach. BJP may win. BJP may lose.
Either way lessons are to be learnt. Arrogance is not the solution. We should remain open to learn or re-learn lessons.