Has China Punctured India's Pipe Dream of Capturing Gilgit Baltistan with Its Actions in Ladakh?

[maverick1977]

Principally yes, but lately Pakistan has stop acting as a sovereign state.
We don't even hide that we are being advised or puppeteered by foreign states.


Hey your English have improved.... you have come long way ever since your launch!

india cant nuke pakistan ... they have no balls to do it..

 

[BATMAN]

I'm surprised some Pakistanis took them seriously.

The reason given to us for pulling plug on shooting down InAF was some intelligence report to Imran Khan, which brought the newes that India is going to nuke Pakistan. All pdf administration believed it and those who refused to believe were given negative ratings, ther posts got deleted, threads closed and banned. Now you say you are surprised on people who took them serious!

india cant nuke pakistan ... they have no balls to do it..

well come to the club, that makes 2 of us. in that case you must as well be wondering, what was the reason for not capitalizing on the opportunity gifted by Indians on 27th February,

 

[hussain0216]

It also goes beyond that. India has been hoping the West would move its factories from China to India, and speeding up India’s development similar to what the last 40 years have done for China. But even if India build the infrastructure and trains its workforce, The west won’t make that mistake again. It is trying to find ways to bring back manufacturing to their own nations because there is massive unemployment and underemployment in the west which is no longer sustainable.

Secondly, The past 20 years of continuous war has drained western nations from fighting pointless wars that will ultimately be resolved politically. Hence the limit of military support foreign nations will give India, without a large arms deal. Even after a large arms deal the support will be conditional, as the Saudis learned recently. The US will try to sell overpriced weapons to India if it is willing to buy, but it will cost India money it could have spend developing its economy, so it will be stuck in an arms race while its demographic dividend fades over the next 20 years.

India would be wise to free Kashmir but condition it upon Kashmiri neutrality and independence like Kosovo; which is prohibited from joining Albania. India and the region could then move on to economic development where it would have more options to gain political influence, similar to how Germany gained more influence through the formation of the EU rather then when it invaded other countries under its Nazi government.

Kashmir is a noose India has tied around itself and its ambitions.

India should really be the leader of South Asia

It has the physical size and population, the nation's of South Asia should be behind India so our common interests be served and protected
Common economic policy, trade and cultural ties flourish

EXCEPT Indians in their greed, stupidity and lack of foresight decided to occupy a Muslim majority Kashmir thus putting Pakistan in a position that forced it to militarise, seek nuclear weapons and make its national self interest based upon the destruction of India in everyway

Something which other nations take advantage of to keep a chain around India's neck



India has done this to itself

 

[Longhorn]

The reason given to us for pulling plug on shooting down InAF was some intelligence report to Imran Khan, which brought the newes that India is going to nuke Pakistan. All pdf administration believed it and those who refused to believe were given negative ratings, ther posts got deleted, threads closed and banned. Now you say you are surprised on people who took them serious!


well come to the club, that makes 2 of us. in that case you must as well be wondering, what was the reason for not capitalizing on the opportunity gifted by Indians on 27th February,

This is the first time I've ever heard nuclear weapons mentioned in relation to the threats India made after Swift Retort.
The threat was of a missile strike which Pakistan in turn threatened to retaliate 3 fold.
There was never any mention of nukes.

India should really be the leader of South Asia

It has the physical size and population, the nation's of South Asia should be behind India so our common interests be served and protected
Common economic policy, trade and cultural ties flourish

EXCEPT Indians in their greed, stupidity and lack of foresight decided to occupy a Muslim majority Kashmir thus putting Pakistan in a position that forced it to militarise, seek nuclear weapons and make its national self interest based upon the destruction of India in everyway

Something which other nations take advantage of to keep a chain around India's neck



India has done this to itself

Small men in big offices with the vision of a mole in a dust storm.

 

[BATMAN]

This is the first time I've ever heard nuclear weapons mentioned in relation to the threats India made after Swift Retort.
The threat was of a missile strike which Pakistan in turn threatened to retaliate 3 fold.
There was never any mention of nukes.

Do you have reference of that threat, was that threat made in middle of air battle.
Why exactly Indian planes and ammo dumps were not targeted?

 

[jamesisi]

I guess there could be serious planning going on between Pakistan and China as well as Nepal in shadows..
One wrong move by Indian military will result in Kashmir being liberated and China Arunachal Paradesh. Nepal will take their part.
Happy days

 

[FuturePAF]

India should really be the leader of South Asia

It has the physical size and population, the nation's of South Asia should be behind India so our common interests be served and protected
Common economic policy, trade and cultural ties flourish

EXCEPT Indians in their greed, stupidity and lack of foresight decided to occupy a Muslim majority Kashmir thus putting Pakistan in a position that forced it to militarise, seek nuclear weapons and make its national self interest based upon the destruction of India in everyway

Something which other nations take advantage of to keep a chain around India's neck



India has done this to itself

During the partition talks or soon after independence, Indian leaders could have even supported a peace plan to keep Kashmir a neutral neighbor like Nepal under its own king/Maharaja. Without that cover now they have to deal with the democratic aspirations of the Kashmiri People.

All the years of pressure upon the Kashmir people have left them in such a position that only a minority of Kashmiris that don’t want to see the end of Indian occupation due so for their own individual economic reasons (I have spoken to Srinagar businessmen to ask who is left that supports them).

If Pakistan is to really challenge India in Kashmir and sustainable erode their support base, it must do battle on an economic level. As the world is reshaping in the wake of the coronavirus induced recessions, now is the time to make that change. Reforms to our own economic system, which will maximize efficiency and productivity are a national security issue. We need a plan that can get Pakistan’s economy to a $1 Trillion Economy in the next 20 years (avg of 7% annual grow is needed).

The west won over Eastern Europeans with their economic prowess during the Cold War, Pakistan must do the same in its Cold War with India.

 

[Meengla]

India should really be the leader of South Asia

It has the physical size and population, the nation's of South Asia should be behind India so our common interests be served and protected
Common economic policy, trade and cultural ties flourish

EXCEPT Indians in their greed, stupidity and lack of foresight decided to occupy a Muslim majority Kashmir thus putting Pakistan in a position that forced it to militarise, seek nuclear weapons and make its national self interest based upon the destruction of India in everyway

Something which other nations take advantage of to keep a chain around India's neck



India has done this to itself

Yes. And too bad for the region. India, being the connecting country to all nations in South Asia, would have itself greatly benefited from a regional integration. Something like a South Asian Union.

 

[FuturePAF]

Yes. And too bad for the region. India, being the connecting country to all nations in South Asia, would have itself greatly benefited from a regional integration. Something like a South Asian Union.

There is still time if India ends is hegemonic ways and reconciled with the nations of the region. It’s window in closing fast though, in 20 years its demographic dividend will be over and its population will be on average too old to sustain the kind of grow that propelled developing nations into developed nations, at which point they will be seeking immigrants as western nations are currently doing to maintain their economic growth.

Btw, Pakistan has a 25-30 year demographic dividend, and should develop its economy regardless of what India does. We too must be mindful of our opportunities and the limited time in which to utilize them.

 

[maverick1977]

During the partition talks or soon after independence, Indian leaders could have even supported a peace plan to keep Kashmir a neutral neighbor like Nepal under its own king/Maharaja. Without that cover now they have to deal with the democratic aspirations of the Kashmiri People.

All the years of pressure upon the Kashmir people have left them in such a position that only a minority of Kashmiris that don’t want to see the end of Indian occupation due so for their own individual economic reasons (I have spoken to Srinagar businessmen to ask who is left that supports them).

If Pakistan is to really challenge India in Kashmir and sustainable erode their support base, it must do battle on an economic level. As the world is reshaping in the wake of the coronavirus induced recessions, now is the time to make that change. Reforms to our own economic system, which will maximize efficiency and productivity are a national security issue. We need a plan that can get Pakistan’s economy to a $1 Trillion Economy in the next 20 years (avg of 7% annual grow is needed).

The west won over Eastern Europeans with their economic prowess during the Cold War, Pakistan must do the same in its Cold War with India.

that will not settle well with India.. a powerful pakistan means problems for indian hegemonic designs.

 

[vi-va]

There had been missed opportunities for peace. According to some Pakistani commentators, India was willing give more to give Pakistan under Vajpayee-Nawaz meetings when Vajpayee came to Pakistan in 1999. But then Kargil happened. Then in 2000, when Musharraf was in India, it were the Indian hawks who prevailed. Then 9/11 happened and, thanks to foreign terrorists and stupid Talibans, India got a golden chance to relentlessly pressure Pakistan. But even then Musharraf-Manmohan were reaching understandings which would have safeguarded Pakistanis and Kashmiris interests in a compromise.

So there have been progress and setbacks. All that is past and debatable. But I think we should look to the future. A future which is based on new realities--realities in which Pakistan has certainly neutralized the Indian threat to a large extent. As I see, Pakistan is on ascendance and India is being cornered. It's a good time to make the current hawks in India smell the coffee.

Also, I believe, contrary to what you are saying, Indian policy wrt to Pakistan is hostile not because India is not a real 'state'. A person like Vajpayee or Modi can certainly 'sell' peace to the Indian population and for that reason alone I'd like to see the Indian Right Wing in power.

Coming to the China debate-- I, like most Pakistanis, would never want to alienate China. China's threat of Veto in the UNSC alone is the best and most powerful diplomatic umbrella Pakistan has. But I also don't want to go so far in embracing China that real opportunities for peace with India are missed. As I said, Pakistan at peace with India offers more gains for Pakistan than an all embracing alliance with China.

What needs to happen is that the current hawks in India need to readjust their policies. They need to learn to live in the region and live in modern time; by that, I mean, becoming a Western poodle or trying to undo real or perceived injustices of distant history is not the way to go forward. It's a debate that needs to happen inside India--for India's own good. Will they have such a debate? I think so.

I agree with your comments that there were opportunities. But is it tactic move of India or strategic one?

India tried to break the Pakistan-China alliance in the triangle relationship. So that India will not face 2 front war. It's the 2 front war scenario keep India in bay ultimately.

Now, let's look at the map. In land, Pakistan is the crossroad of Central Asia, Iran, India and China. In Sea, Pakistan is the crossroad of Arab, Persian Gulf, India, China and Central Asia.

So, a peace treaty will give more breath room to Pakistan, and decrease the liability of China. Pakistan can develop faster and China can invest more in Pakistan. A stronger and capable to self-defend Pakistan is in China's interest.

What India gain from the treaty? Will Pakistan alienate China because of the treaty? Not much. There will be certain areas Pakistan will distance a little bit from China, so that not to provoke India. But Pakistan will still collaborate with China on defense because of more budget. Remember, it's the 2 front war scenario keep India in bay ultimately, not the wishy-washy goodwill.

After the peace treaty, the land dispute is frozen. Pakistan keep being crossroad for all. India lose opportunities to connect Central Asia by Kashmir directly in foreseeable future.

So back to my question. There were opportunities, is it tactic move of India or strategic one?

 

[FuturePAF]

that will not settle well with India.. a powerful pakistan means problems for indian hegemonic designs.

That’s the goal. India can either learn to live peacefully With Pakistan or waste its potential bogged down with a nation it considers a “nuisance” when in reality they are hurting themselves. A peaceful and prosperous Pakistan can be a large market for their goods and vis versa. They have to ask themselves what do they really want? If it’s regional influence and global status, what better way then a mutually beneficial relationship that allows their people to have a higher standard of living, build upon trade.

Their own analysts state that their military can not decisively defeat the Pakistani military, which should give them pause. They should also realize that Pakistan will do what it must to defend its freedom and independence.

 

[Longhorn]

That’s the goal. India can either learn to live Pakistan peacefully or waste its potential bogged down with a nation it considers a “nuisance” when in reality they are hurting themselves. A peaceful and prosperous Pakistan can be a large market for their goods and vis versa. They have to ask themselves what do they really want? If it’s regional influence and global status, what better way then a mutually beneficial relationship that allows their people to have a higher standard of living, build upon trade.

Their own analysts state that their military can not decisively defeat the Pakistani military, which should give them pause. They should also realize that Pakistan will do what it must to defend its freedom and independence.

I don't think the Indian establishment has the wit to consider that strategy. If they had, they would not only have come to some kind of settlement with Pakistan by now but they would not be in the anti China camp at the moment. It leads me to think that the Indian establishment is less interested in peace and prosperity for their population and more interested in it's egomaniacal quest for regional military dominance and hegemony to assuage the humiliation and pain of centuries of colonisation and slavery.

 

[hussain0216]

That’s the goal. India can either learn to live Pakistan peacefully or waste its potential bogged down with a nation it considers a “nuisance” when in reality they are hurting themselves. A peaceful and prosperous Pakistan can be a large market for their goods and vis versa. They have to ask themselves what do they really want? If it’s regional influence and global status, what better way then a mutually beneficial relationship that allows their people to have a higher standard of living, build upon trade.

Their own analysts state that their military can not decisively defeat the Pakistani military, which should give them pause. They should also realize that Pakistan will do what it must to defend its freedom and independence.

The Indians are busy letting the hindutva genie out of the bag so that not only half a billion Muslims of the subcontinent see India as a existential threat but see no worth in its success

I think the entire region has suffered but India for poor poor reasons has screwed itself to the point where a superpower in waiting can come and take territory and beat Indian soldiers to death and the region applauds as a way to keep India under control

I don't think the Indian establishment has the wit to consider that strategy. If they had, they would not only have come to some kind of settlement with Pakistan by now but they would not be in the anti China camp at the moment. It leads me to think that the Indian establishment is less interested in peace and prosperity for their population and more interested in it's egomaniacal quest for regional military dominance and hegemony to assuage the humiliation and pain of centuries of colonisation and slavery.

This is the basis of hindutva

So rather then utilise it's position and size and gravitas to completely remove all fear and sense of threat from.smaller regional countries so they naturally become part of India's sphere of influence without a bullet being fired

India due to the mental baggage of 1000 years of muslim/British rule insists on this bully act which has manifested itself into hindutva which is now rotting India out internally


Jinnah and the fathers of Pakistan were brilliant enough to understand this, they understood the writing on the wall and they could see the emergence of hindutva and the threat Indian Muslims would be under
India HAD to be broken

Just like today India MUST be controlled

 

[Pandora]

Even without Chinese intervention India would never have been able to capture GB in a million years. Indian Armed forces are a wreck disorganized and incapable of carrying out such a massive task. India forgets that Pakistan has developed its forces purely with focus on destroying India. Our defensive offense doctrine can wear down Indian forces well under a month. Last time India attempted to initiate massive conflict on our border in 2001 standoff they got worn down just by being posted at the border and lost nearly 2000 soldiers even without fighting a war . The problem is that Indians have a very short term memory and a robust propaganda machine which can spin their historical embarrassments into victories over social media.