HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[sancho]

Can anybody tell me (or provide a link) what kind of IRST the LCA will have?
Also LCA MK2 will have some airframe changes too right? What kind of and could there be air intake changes to reduce RCS (similar to the changes at F18 Hornet, to Super Hornet) too?

 

[ironman]

Can anybody tell me (or provide a link) what kind of IRST the LCA will have?
Also LCA MK2 will have some airframe changes too right? What kind of and could there be air intake changes to reduce RCS (similar to the changes at F18 Hornet, to Super Hornet) too?

Passive Non-Cooperative Target Recognition Options​

07/04/09 - tempur april 2009

Just like the fierce competition now underway for supplying M-MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF), a parallel competition is proceeding ahead for supplying new-generation passive infra-red search-and-track (IRST) systems coupled with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for both the yet-to-be-selected M-MRCA, and

Just like the fierce competition now underway for supplying M-MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF), a parallel competition is proceeding ahead for supplying new-generation passive infra-red search-and-track (IRST) systems coupled with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for both the yet-to-be-selected M-MRCA, and for the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), which is now being flight-tested. All in all, more than 460 IRST systems are expected to be ordered. Bidding to supply the IRSTs are Europe’s EuroFirst consortium (offering the PIRATE), a consortium of France’s THALES and Sagem Défense Sécurité offering the Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF), Sweden’s Saab offering the IR-OTIS, and Russia’s Urals Optical & Mechanical Plant (UOMZ) offering the 13SM1 sensor.

The PIRATE, or passive infra-red airborne tracking equipment, is a second-generation imaging infra-red (IIR) system and has been developed by the EuroFirst consortium led by THALES Optronics and Selex-Galileo. PIRATE incorporates both a forward looking infra-red (FLIR) and IRST capability. The system itself utilises a highly sensitive IIR sensor mounted to the port side of the canopy. This sensor scans across wavelengths from 3 micron to 11 micron in two bands. This allows the detection of both the hot exhaust plumes of turbofans as well as surface heating caused by friction. By supercooling the sensor even small variations in temperature can be detected at long range. Although no definitive ranges have been released an upper limit of 80nm has been hinted at, but a more typical figure would be 50nm. The use of processing techniques further enhances the output, giving a near high-resolution image of targets. The actual output from the system can be directed to any of the multi-function head down AMLCDs mounted within a combat aircraft’s cockpit. Additionally, the image can be overlaid on both the helmet-mounted display sight and heads-up display (HUD). The IIR sensor is stabilised within its mount so that it can maintain a target within its field-of-view (FOV). Up to 200 targets can be simultaneously tracked by the system using one of several different modes: multiple target track (MTT), single target track (STT), single target track identification (STTI), sector acquisition and slaved acquisition. In MTT mode the system will scan a designated volume space looking for potential targets. In STT mode PIRATE will provide high-precision tracking of a single designated target. An addition to this mode, STT Identification allows for visual identification of the airborne target, the resolution being superior to that provided by the Caesar AESA. When in sector acquisition mode, the PIRATE will scan a volume of space under direction of another sensor such as the Caesar. In slave acquisition the use of off-board sensors is made, with the PIRATE being commanded by data obtained from an AEW & C platform, for example. When a target is found in either of these modes PIRATE will automatically designate it and switch to STT. Once a target has been tracked and identified, PIRATE can be used to cue a within-visual-range air-to-air missile, i.e. a missile with a high off-boresight tracking capability. Additionally, the data can be used to augment that of the Caesar or off-board sensor information obtained from an integrated EW suite. This will enable the IRST-equipped aircraft to overcome severe ECM environments and still engage its targets.
Northrop Grumman’s AAQ-32 Internal FLIR targetting system (IFTS), coupled with the APG-80 AESA, is currently operational on board the Lockheed Martin-built Block 60/62 F-16E/F Desert Faclon M-MRCAs of the United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF). The IFTS includes a navigation FLIR sensor and a targeting FLIR both mounted within a single pod. It allows the aircraft to detect and identify both ground and airborne targets, even at night or in adverse weather. The IFTS relies on the aircraft for its power and cryogenic cooling requirements. While the targetting FLIR and laser designator have been repackaged in a pod, the wide-area navigation stabilised FLIR sensor is housed above the nose. The IFTS, however, is not being offered to India for the F-16IN M-MRCA. The OSF, coupled with the THALES-developed RBE-2 AESA, is mounted in front of the cockpit and consists of two optronic modules. The starboard module has a long-wave (8-12 micron) IIR camera and is used for airborne target search and track. The range of the camera is believed to be up to 90km in ideal conditions. The portside module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder. The OSF suite carries out search, target identification, telemetry and automatic target discrimination and tracking. By cueing the OSF with the tracks provided by the RBE-2 or by another aircraft via a secure operational data link, a pilot can easily identify an aggressor force at a range of several tens of nautical miles. For example, he can pick up three F/A-18s preparing to penetrate at 20,000 feet and three additional F/A-18s protecting the former at 40,000 feet. Saab Dynamics, on the other hand, is offering the IR-OTIS in combination with both its Ericsson-built Nora AESA and the existing PS-o5/A mechanically scanned airborne multi-mode radar. The IR-OTIS has been flight-tested since 2001, and is located just in front of the aircraft canopy, slightly offset to port and is about 20cm in diameter. The IR-OTIS’ FOV will be cued by a helmet-mounted display system (as will the radar). It will also have an autonomous search programme and tracking function. The information will be storable for evaluation and comparison with radar information in real-time, and also as video for later use.
Another novel IRST solution being proposed comes from Lockheed Martin, which has already been selected to supply the IRST sensor for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Block 2 Super Hornet. The podded system will provide passive detection and tracking of airborne targets at long-range. The long-wave IR sensor will be mounted in the nose of the 1,820 litre centreline fuel tank. Boeing and Lockheed Martin are co-developing a proof-of-concept demonstrator. The IRST’s sub-systems include a sensor head that houses a three-axis inertially stabilised gimbal that scans the optics and detector assembly; a COTS processor that hosts the algorithms and a high-density digital recorder, and an air-to-liquid heat exchanger (environmental control sub-system, or ECS). The US Navy plans to buy 150 such IRSTs, with the system scheduled to become operational in 2012. The IRST, when coupled with Raytheon’s APG-79 AESA, provides the F/A-18E/F’s mission computer with track file data on all targets while simultaneously providing IIR imagery to cockpit displays. The IRST will operate in either track-while-scan or single target track mode, with cockpit selectable hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controlled scan volumes in azimuth and elevation. The IRST will be mounted in the forward section of the centreline fuel tank, thereby ensuring that its FOV is maximised. UOMZ’s 13SM1 (OLS-UEM) IRST, originally developed for the MiG-35 and working in conjunction with the Phazotron JSC-built Zhuk-AE AESA, has a 120-degree FOV in azimuth, 55 degrees and -15 degrees FOV in elevation, has a detection range of 28km in the forward hemisphere and 70km in the rear hemisphere, and has a total weight of 60kg. UOMZ has also developed the OLS-K pod-mounted look-down IRST that combines a TV camera with an IIR sensor and laser rangefinder/designator, all of which are housed within a belly-mounted 110kg-pod. The OLS-K is thus a multi-purpose IRST sensor that is used for not only airborne target detection, but also for detection and engagement of ground-based targets out to 40km.

According to air intake changes if any, we have to wait .

 

[ironman]

Request proposal for new Tejas Mk2 engine issued ​

Monday, Jul 27, 2009
Ravi Sharma

GE and Eurojet in the fray

Both manufacturers given time till October 12

BANGALORE: Almost a year after it was scheduled to go out, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a request for proposal (RFP) which will lead to the selection of a new, more powerful engine for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk2.

The necessity for a new, off-the-shelf engine has occurred since the LCA’s present power plant, the GE F404 IN20, cannot power the Indian Air Force’s specified air staff requirements. The RFP has gone out to the United States’ General Electric (GE) for its F414 engine and the European military aero engine consortium Eurojet who are offering the EJ200 engine. Both engines are currently in service and capable of delivering an installed thrust in excess of 90 kiloNewtons.

Both manufacturers have been given time till October 12 to submit proposals which will be technically evaluated. The RFP indicates a run of 99 engines, with the option to procure a further 49. While the first few engines will be bought out in fly-away condition, the remaining will be assembled or manufactured at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Officials from the ADA told The Hindu that the primary reason for the delay in issuing the RFP was HAL’s “insistence to ride the bandwagon and secure via the engine deal as much manufacturing technology from the manufacturer as possible.” HAL has never designed or manufactured its own aero engines, but only assembled them under license production agreements. It would like to gain a foothold in manufacturing technologies such as single crystal blade and blade cooling. Though no transfer of design technology will take place, Eurojet has indicated that an Indian entity can join them “as a partner” in designing modifications/ improvements to the EJ200.

The installation of the new engine will necessitate major modifications to the LCA, especially the fuselage. The ADA expects the Tejas Mk2 to fly in 2014.

 

[sancho]

According to air intake changes if any, we have to wait .

Thx for that interesting article!
According to it IAF is searching for a package of AESA radar and IRST, but if that is true, why is it often reported that the Israeli Elta 2052 is likely to be used in LCA MK2? Do they have an IRST system that could be offered?
Also the article says that the IRST of F16 block 60 is not on offer for MMRCA, so obviously it won't be on offer for LCA. I also doubt that they will be ready to provide AESA radars for LCA, which leaves only European and Russian as possibilities. But EF and Gripen NG don't have their AESA radars developed yet, which clearly will give Rafale and Mig 35 an advantage.

 

[sudhir007]

IAF suggesting proven, flight worthy engine for LCA: Antony :: Samay Live

New Delhi, Aug 3 Government today said DRDO hasproposed to co-develop and co-produce an upgraded version ofKaveri engine with French engine manufacturers Snecma for theLight Combat Aircraft (LCA) but the IAF has suggested that aproven and flight worthy engine to be put on the aircraft.

"DRDO has offered to co-develop and co-produce 90 KNthrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine with Snecma to meet theoperational requirements of LCA within 48 months of due dateof project inception," Defence Minister A K Antony said whilereplying to a Lok Sabha query.

"Indian Air Force (IAF) has suggested a proven enginethat is already in production and flight worthy for meetingimmediate requirements," he added.

Antony said that DRDO has claimed that minimum changeswould be required in the LCA airframe to integrate the newKaveri engine without affecting the weight and configurationof the first indigenously developed combat aircraft.

In reply to another query, he said that a global tenderfor attack helicopters issued in May last year was withdrawnas the three proposals received from vendors were not incompliance with IAF's requirements and a fresh Requestfor Proposal (RFP) was issued this year. .

 

[Ruag]

Times of India article detailing the demise of the 'Kaveri' engine


'Indigenous' Tejas fighter to get 'foreign' engines for power

- Rajat Pandit , TNN 4 August 2009

India's quest to develop its own multi-role supersonic fighter, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), continues to falter even after 25 years. Its heart also needs a foreign transplant surgery now to function properly.

The defence ministry has asked two leading aeroengine manufacturers, General Electric (US) and Eurojet Turbo GmbH, to submit their bids within three months to supply 99 engines, with an option for 49 more, for the Mark-II version of Tejas.

With GE F-414 INS5 and EJ-200 being the engines in contention, eight will be bought off-the-shelf, while the other 91 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology in an estimated $600 million contract.

This comes after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster even after two decades of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful engines.

Sounding the death knell for Kaveri, IAF has shot down the offer of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-produce the "90kN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine'' with French company Snecma to meet Tejas' operational requirements, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament on Monday.

DRDO contended the modified Kaveri engine would provide "comparable thrust throughout the flight envelope of Tejas''. Moreover, it would require minimum changes in airframe to integrate this engine without affecting the weight and configuration of the single-seater fighter.

"IAF, however, has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight-worthy for meeting immediate requirements. The RFP (request for proposal) has been issued to reputed engine manufacturers,'' said Antony.

Incidentally, the GE-414 and EJ-200 engines power the American F/A-18 and Eurofighter, respectively, two of the six jets in the race to bag IAF's $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 "medium'' multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

IAF, incidentally, has ordered only 20 Tejas till now, apprehensive of its capabilities since the fighter's final operational clearance (FOC) will come only in December 2012 at the earliest.

Antony declared that high-level reviews of the Tejas project were being conducted regularly by IAF chief and deputy chief to ensure it's completed in time.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Aeronautical Development Agency and DRDO have, of course, faced a lot of flak for the huge delays.

Initiated as far back as 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace ageing MiG-21s, the LCA project costs have now jumped to Rs 5,489 crore. The figure may well cross the Rs 10,000-crore mark by the time the fighter is fully ready.

IAF is certainly keeping its fingers crossed, grappling as it is with a depleting number of fighter squadrons, down to just 32 from a sanctioned strength of 39.5.

The force is banking upon the "air dominance'' Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, with 230 of them being contracted from Russia in deals worth around $8.5 billion, to fulfil its need for "heavy-weight'' fighters. The MMRCA will take care of the medium-weight category. Tejas, in turn, is slated to plug the light-weight fighter gap in the combat fleet.

Seems that the LCA is no longer considered a major component of IAF's future combat fleet. India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!

 

[sancho]

Times of India article detailing the demise of the 'Kaveri' engine


'Indigenous' Tejas fighter to get 'foreign' engines for power

- Rajat Pandit , TNN 4 August 2009


Seems that the LCA is no longer considered a major component of IAF's future combat fleet. India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!

Why? The article confirms 99 new engines and 49 optional, with the around 20 LCA MK1 and some trainer versions, it will be around 150 to 200 LCA. These will replace any Mig 21 except the Bisons, which will be replaced by MMRCA. So LCA is still coming in planed numbers.
Also the article says nothing about technical problems with Kaveri, only that it not offers the required thrust of IAF (90 Kn, Kaveri offers around 83 Kn) and IAF don't wanted to wait for the Snecma upg.
Compare the thrust of similar engines (wiki specs):

GE 404 IN20 of LCA - MK1 85 Kn

RD 93 of JF 17 - 84 Kn (same for RD 33 of our Mig 29)

RD 33MK of our Mig 29K and the new Mig 35 - 88 to 90 Kn

M88-2 of Rafale 75 Kn

So either Kaveri has other problems and is just not proven enough, or IAF requirement was too high, but the thrust alone can't be the reason not to take it!

 

[arihant]

India did gain considerable experience building this fighter jet from scratch but still.. what a waste of money and time!

Brother, India learn a lot from this. Every failure in the task, lead to greater success in future. I think India should still continue building the kaveri engine for the sole purpose to get experience.

 

[Trisonics]

Brother, India learn a lot from this. Every failure in the task, lead to greater success in future. I think India should still continue building the kaveri engine for the sole purpose to get experience.

This is a great set back. If the Kaveri is not used on the LCA which would have been a test bed for the engine, what will power the MCA?

In all probability it may be an engine that India builds with another country as a JV, but the money & time it has spent on this project seems to be all down the drain. IMO its too late to redesign or build a new engine altogether, JV is the way out. The biggest problem with this effort and most of India's project are time management. When they are late by a decade the new product is very old.

If somebody can induce good authority and accountability with proper project management, I have no doubt that we will dish out awesome products. Until that happens...expect everything to be late..some very late...

 

[arihant]

This is a great set back. If the Kaveri is not used on the LCA which would have been a test bed for the engine, what will power the MCA?

In all probability it may be an engine that India builds with another country as a JV, but the money & time it has spent on this project seems to be all down the drain. IMO its too late to redesign or build a new engine altogether, JV is the way out. The biggest problem with this effort and most of India's project are time management. When they are late by a decade the new product is very old.

If somebody can induce good authority and accountability with proper project management, I have no doubt that we will dish out awesome products. Until that happens...expect everything to be late..some very late...

What is IMO, is that govt. should still try to find out the problems of kaveri. Whether they use the engine or not is not the subsequent question. This will help in their future projects. It's still better to create your own product by investing 10-20 times then importing it. By creating your own, you learn a lot and chance of exporting the engine gets created.

 

[Trisonics]

What is IMO, is that govt. should still try to find out the problems of kaveri. Whether they use the engine or not is not the subsequent question. This will help in their future projects. It's still better to create your own product by investing 10-20 times then importing it. By creating your own, you learn a lot and chance of exporting the engine gets created.

All true if we can make on before LCA gets into squadrons and with some new specifications. You think its possible? the kind of secrecy on the kaveri and its ability (read inability) make me believe its a dud
I'm all for a JV, remember India can build good frames or an aircraft or awesome avionics, jet engines are a whole different story. The fastest way to learn is a JV and then use the Indian brain to better it. We are already late, lets be wiser now.

 

[Ruag]

Why? The article confirms 99 new engines and 49 optional, with the around 20 LCA MK1 and some trainer versions, it will be around 150 to 200 LCA. These will replace any Mig 21 except the Bisons, which will be replaced by MMRCA. So LCA is still coming in planed numbers.
Also the article says nothing about technical problems with Kaveri, only that it not offers the required thrust of IAF (90 Kn, Kaveri offers around 83 Kn) and IAF don't wanted to wait for the Snecma upg.

So either Kaveri has other problems and is just not proven enough, or IAF requirement was too high, but the thrust alone can't be the reason not to take it!

Well.. the same article specifically mentions that the IAF has confirmed the purchase of just 20 LCAs. It seems quite obvious that HAL/ADA are forcefully making IAF buy these fighter jets.

And for any jet engine, thrust is a major factor. IAF has repeatedly said that the Kaveri is too heavy and does not provide enough thrust. This puts LCA at a serious disadvantage compared to other contemprorary fighter jets. Besides, it hasn't been tested for long duration of time to address all reliability issues.

 

[BATMAN]

Hey fellows, problem is not in engine, problem is in the air frame.
Airframe of LCA need drastic changes.
I agree with Ruag that if 20 LCA being made than those will be used merely as trainer by InAF and not front line fighters.
Hence it cannever be a up for export, in its present form.
Any changes than it is no more Light Combat Aircraft.
BTW, Kaveri engine in its present form have foreign inputs.
i wonder what went wrong despite all the finances and support being made available.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Well.. the same article specifically mentions that the IAF has confirmed the purchase of just 20 LCAs. It seems quite obvious that HAL/ADA are forcefully making IAF buy these fighter jets.

And for any jet engine, thrust is a major factor. IAF has repeatedly said that the Kaveri is too heavy and does not provide enough thrust. This puts LCA at a serious disadvantage compared to other contemprorary fighter jets. Besides, it hasn't been tested for long duration of time to address all reliability issues.

Hi Ruag,

Please, state your point clearly. Do you doubt the capability of the LCA or only the Kaveri engine? If you are concerned with the LCA on the whole then be assured that it is not being thrust upon the IAF by anyone. The IAF has clearly specified the IOC and FOC conditions/requirements and the LCA will be inducted only if these conditions are fully met. The 20 LCAs of Mk-I version are expected to get the IOC in 2010 or 2011. The user inputs coming from the IAF after operating this squadron of LCA Mk-I will be essential to the success of the Mk-II and that s the reason for the initial order of 20 jets. The engine RFP is for 99+49 engines, which means that we will see atleast 148 LCA Mk-II in IAF colors. That is a big number by any stretch of imagination. Do you think the IAF would have committed to such large numbers if it didn’t have faith in the aircraft?

Coming to the Kaveri issue, it is confirmed that the Kaveri engine in its present form is not going to power the LCA. So, there is no ‘disadvantage compared to other contemporary fighter jets’ as you mention. The Mk-I version will be powered by the GE-404 and the later Mk-II versions will be powered by either the EJ-200 or the GE-414.

 

[Choppers]

I think GE has won the contract for supplying engines.