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I Have a query. The thrust of the current engine 404 is not enough for the IAF and I do believe that there will be a wartime setting ( extra thrust) for 404. Isn't it possible to use this setting for initial order so that with extra thrust IAF would feel better? I know that engine life will get reduced with this setting ( but don't know how much). I am novice on this. Senior pl answer.
Tx

Trust isn't the only problem.
Surely IAF want more powerful engine but only changing engine will not achieve that completely. Thats why airframe in MK-2 is supposed to be modified to reduce drag and achieve weight reduction too.

AFAIK Mk-1 will never be on the combat duty. They will use them to familiarise pilots with LCA and test the plane thoroughly.

Being a layman I'm confused about .....where IAF as end used must focus .... Either it's the engine thrust or the results (parameters) achieved by whole package

Keep in mind engine used in LCA is the only providing the thrust. How this thrust is being converted in to speed, how much acceleration (with in the design limits) can be generated, what celling can be achieved, how much weight can be lifted, how much power can be shared with other system ....all these are limited/ affected by design approach.

e.g. if DRDO/ ADA/ HAL put a proposal to use a Bajaj engine and can meet all IAF requirements ....what reservation IAF could have. Wouldn't they be more focused on actual results then engine thrust?

senior member/ experts enlighten me Please!
 
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Being a layman I'm confused about .....where IAF as end used must focus .... Either it's the engine thrust or the results (parameters) achieved by whole package

Keep in mind engine used in LCA is the only providing the thrust. How this thrust is being converted in to speed, how much acceleration (with in the design limits) can be generated, what celling can be achieved, how much weight can be lifted, how much power can be shared with other system ....all these are limited/ affected by design approach.

e.g. if DRDO/ ADA/ HAL put a proposal to use a Bajaj engine and can meet all IAF requirements ....what reservation IAF could have. Wouldn't they be more focused on actual results then engine thrust?

senior member/ experts enlighten me Please!
Its all about T:W ratio. If you can reduce weight you have better thrust from the same engine.

You use more powerful engine , reduce weight and reduce drag caused by airframe you are good.

Final aim to have a fighter to have enough power to operate in all conditions and scenarios.


IAF isn't focusing on engine they want more thrust so hence is engine change and other above mentioned changes. They don't care which engine DRDO use till it keeps the plane in the air as per they desire.
 
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I really don't like the aircraft as now there are even better options available and IAF is having some great problems with their MiGs fleet like: 21, 23/27 and even 29s...

MiG 29 is being upgraded and I have not heard of any problem IAF has with them .

LCA is being developed based on requirements set by IAF and I am sorry that they have not included your dislike as a parameter .

There may be other better options avaliable but sometimes to get the job done you necessarily don't need the best .

While fighting with China that has huge numbers of F-7s, F-8s, A-5Cs, Su-27s, J-11s and J-10s along with some other bombers and a good deal of F-6s in reserves.

India also has a good number of jaguars , M2K , MiG29 , MKI to engage any adversary .
 
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I really don't like the aircraft as now there are even better options available and IAF is having some great problems with their MiGs fleet like: 21, 23/27 and even 29s...

While fighting with China that has huge numbers of F-7s, F-8s, A-5Cs, Su-27s, J-11s and J-10s along with some other bombers and a good deal of F-6s in reserves.

F-7 = MIG-21B better than F-7
F-8 (Same role as F-7) = IAF does not operate dual engine intercepter plane this role played by MIG-21
A-5 ( MIG-19) = ?????? IAF does not operate such old technology plane
SU-27 or J-11 = SU-30 MKI is upper hand
J-10 = MIRAGE-2000, MIG-29
along with IAF operates Jaguar & MIG-27 ground attack fighters.
 
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F-7 = MIG-21B better than F-7
F-8 (Same role as F-7) = IAF does not operate dual engine intercepter plane this role played by MIG-21
A-5 ( MIG-19) = ?????? IAF does not operate such old technology plane
SU-27 or J-11 = SU-30 MKI is upper hand
J-10 = MIRAGE-2000, MIG-29
along with IAF operates Jaguar & MIG-27 ground attack fighters.

Hey guy J-10 is no match against Mig 29 specially Mig 29 UPG and Mirage UPG and Su 27 and U-11 and Su30 MKK are no match for MKI.
 
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Hey guy J-10 is no match against Mig 29 specially Mig 29 UPG and Mirage UPG and Su 27 and U-11 and Su30 MKK are no match for MKI.

Its J-11 & I didn't said that they are same but their role are same & in same class.
 
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1002493_10151657572198071_771956729_n.jpg


Tejas' over the Jaisalmer Fort.
 
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Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy

India And The Tejas Tragedy

April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably.

The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.

This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.

The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.
 
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Warplanes: India And The Tejas Tragedy

India And The Tejas Tragedy

April 30, 2013: Despite enormous political pressure in India to get the locally made LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter into production, the government has quietly delayed that for at least two more years. Production was supposed to begin at the end of 2012, but the number of technical problems with the LCA was too great to clear up in time for production to start then. Many essential electronic items are not functioning properly or reliably.

The prototypes that are flying are maintenance nightmares, and after each test flight it takes several days to get the aircraft in shape to fly again. The managers of this government financed project tried to keep the problems quiet while they were quickly and quietly fixed but failed at both these tasks.

This was not the first major failure for the LCA. Earlier this year India admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in the LCA. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally but that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.

The LCA developers saw this coming and several years ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. At that point it was still believed that eventually most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready.

The failure of the Kaveri project is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations). For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.

After sales support is a nightmare with HAL.

I have colleagues of my brothers who are drafted to Army Aviation and operate Dhruvs.

They say that the performance of Dhruv for example, is excellent.

But the supply chain of HAL, the service quality of HAL and other after-sales tech support is a serious problem.

Apparently it is the same with Tejas.

The thing however, is that HAL along with MOD has already started working on opening more facilities for assembling for Tejas, stocking spares and additional support.

So by the end of this decade, we'd have a full fledged supply chain.

It is sadly inadequate at the moment.

But in its 2200 flights, Tejas has flown very well without even a hint of crashing.

Shows the good quality stuff.

If only HAL could speed it up, eliminating bureaucracy.
 
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Any reason for posting 4 months old news?

We have stepped in fighter plane making with a bang. We have successfully crossed all the hurdles. From now onward there will be no looking back. We shall make a rapid progress like we did in Missiles. No body can now stop us from becoming a leader in Fighter plane and other aeronautics. Within a decade we shall be making planes that are best among the world.
 
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Yo DODO

You can put a 1000 articles mocking LCA,Here is a simple fact, LCA is the only fighter jet in the WORLD that hasn't crashed :azn::azn:
 
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Any reason for posting 4 months old news?

We have stepped in fighter plane making with a bang. We have successfully crossed all the hurdles. From now onward there will be no looking back. We shall make a rapid progress like we did in Missiles. No body can now stop us from becoming a leader in Fighter plane and other aeronautics. Within a decade we shall be making planes that are best among the world.

Are there any new improvements on how Tejas and its Kaveri Engine function? If not, the contents of the article stands effective as of today.

I wonder, considering the mindset of people of SA, if Tejas have become a goose that lay gold egg for some high up people every time it fails and more money is injected in the name of nationalism and technology development!!
 
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well to all those who love to make fun of LCA few facts

1. it has never crashed unlike some super duper planes china and pakistan ;)

2. it will be having an ASEA radar and latest EW suite thanks to joint venture between Israel & india

3. Most of the wepons be it ground attack or air to air are already tested with it

4. LCA has been tested thouroghli with both in night and day condition at almost al over the india & all weather tests the tejas has never dissapointed

now the problem lies with corrupt IAF and HAL baboos and the greedy lot who want to shelv it for there kick backs but since it is owrs we will have it maybe a few years late but whats the hurry we already have the best airforce in asia and very soon we will be having FGFA & Rafale aswell dont worry :coffee:
 
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Are there any new improvements on how Tejas and its Kaveri Engine function? If not, the contents of the article stands effective as of today.

I wonder, considering the mindset of people of SA, if Tejas have become a goose that lay gold egg for some high up people every time it fails and more money is injected in the name of nationalism and technology development!!

Yes,

Article says that it takes several days to prepare plane for another flight. A lots flights of same plane took place twice a day and 4 times in 3 days proving content of article wrong. There is no such maintenance problem exist.

In Iron fist 2013, we show plane taking off in just 12 second. We show superb agility. All this is a part of development. You perhaps won't understand that.

Kaveri engine is doing good in testing in russia.
 
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well to all those who love to make fun of LCA few facts

1. it has never crashed unlike some super duper planes china and pakistan ;)

2. it will be having an ASEA radar and latest EW suite thanks to joint venture between Israel & india

3. Most of the wepons be it ground attack or air to air are already tested with it

4. LCA has been tested thouroghli with both in night and day condition at almost al over the india & all weather tests the tejas has never dissapointed

now the problem lies with corrupt IAF and HAL baboos and the greedy lot who want to shelv it for there kick backs but since it is owrs we will have it maybe a few years late but whats the hurry we already have the best airforce in asia and very soon we will be having FGFA & Rafale aswell dont worry :coffee:

I think the technical people who want to shelve this unattainable project are patriotic. In my opinion, Tejas should be abandoned along with its engine Kaveri. But, the experience the technical team has gained so far should be transfered to develop a completely new jet.

However, considering the history of building jet engines in the past by the westerners that took them a COMBINED 200 years or more, it can be said that no amount of Indian effort will give it a reliable engine within a short space of time. Internal metallurgy of a jet engine seems to be quite complex. Many trials and failures are needed over a long time to acquire such a knowledge.

So, it is ok if India keeps on developing a jet engine of its own, but Indians should not expect this engine to be reliable in a war zone. It is wiser for India to get outside help to design not only the frame of a new platform but also how to incorporate functional avionics in it.
 
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